Toe in/out

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slowegxxrevolt

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OK I would like to start playing with the toe settings as I know that in real life they have a big effect and I'd like to see if the same is true in GT4. IRL toe-out in front makes the car turn in better but can reduce straight-line stability, while toe-in makes for greater straight-line stability but poorer turn-in. In the rear the effects are pretty much the same but toe-out in the rear on a RWD car can produce excessive oversteer. It's great for FWD cars though to make them rotate a little...

However, I'm not sure which way is which in the game. Toe is set by + and -... is + toe-out and - toe-in ?
 
slowegxxrevolt
OK I would like to start playing with the toe settings as I know that in real life they have a big effect and I'd like to see if the same is true in GT4. IRL toe-out in front makes the car turn in better but can reduce straight-line stability, while toe-in makes for greater straight-line stability but poorer turn-in. In the rear the effects are pretty much the same but toe-out in the rear on a RWD car can produce excessive oversteer. It's great for FWD cars though to make them rotate a little...

However, I'm not sure which way is which in the game. Toe is set by + and -... is + toe-out and - toe-in ?
Click to expand...


toe + in the front will make it more like this \ /, toe + on the rear end does this / \the front is ontop of the back to look like this

\ / this is with toe + in the front
/ \ & this is with toe + in the back

/ \ This is toe - in the front
\ / & this is toe - in the back
 
ProtegeLX
toe + in the front will make it more like this \ /, toe + on the rear end does this / \the front is ontop of the back to look like this

\ / this is with toe + in the front
/ \ & this is with toe + in the back

/ \ This is toe - in the front
\ / & this is toe - in the back
Click to expand...

wow thats weird that its opposite like that... doesn't really make any sense.

so in front, + is toe out and - is toe in

in back, - is toe out and + is toe in...
 
slowegxxrevolt
wow thats weird that its opposite like that... doesn't really make any sense.

so in front, + is toe out and - is toe in

in back, - is toe out and + is toe in...
Click to expand...


Im pretty sure when they refer to "Toe" the more "toe" aplyed ( toe +) the more angled out the wheels become, its not the oposite if you turn the car around. Positive always pushes the outer piont out and negative pulls it in, this happens in bolth front and back. it looks the oposite because it IS the oposite side .
 
ProtegeLX
I got it right.
Click to expand...

what do you base your idea on (I don't disagree, I just want to feel more secure about it...)

maybe if I tested it on a different car, I'd be able to tell more... all my suspension tuning has been on a Prelude
 
Try this , take a car you know understeers and add - 02 toe rear. Take it on the track . Do you see a difference ? How so ? Do this and you answered yopur own question.
 
ledhed
Try this , take a car you know understeers and add - 02 toe rear. Take it on the track . Do you see a difference ? How so ? Do this and you answered yopur own question.
Click to expand...

I set my Toe to -4 on my prelude, then to +4, and the differences were too subtle to know for sure either way.

which is lame, because small toe adjustments should make a big difference in the way a car handles.
 
+/ - 4 is not exactly a small adjustment. But try it on a different car a FWD or a RWD . you paid for the game use it :) in a situation when you have 2,000 different opinions on wich way up is what else can you do ..except maybe flip a coin ? Or wait to see who insist the hardest ?
BTW when your doing this you have to take the ASM and turn it OFF or it will try to defeat what your settings are trying to do reguarding Over/ understeer .
 
Ok its Positive TOE OUT, that we are implimenting with the + and Negative TOE OUT with the -

BUT KEEP IN MIND ANY POSITIVE TOE OUT RESULTS IN NEGATIVE TOE IN

so what your saying is accurate, but they are NOT refering to Toe IN, they are refering to TOE out, so Positive DOES aply.

\ / = Positive Toe out & Negative Toe in (for the front of the car front on top)

These are bolth reflections of the front wheels one with Positive toe one with negative.


/ \ = Negative Toe Out & Positive Toe in (for the front of the car front on top)


Toe always refers to the increase/decrease of distance apart of the outer points of the wheels in relation to the fixed centerpoint of the wheels. The outer point being the point of the wheel closest to the end of the car (front or the back) it dont matter


This is Positive toe out front and back

\ /

/ \

This is negative Toe out front and back

/ \

\ /


The OTHER detail that is confusing is front and rear, but its simple (it apears to be oposits, but is not) positive toe out in the front looks like this \ / and positive toe out in the rear looks like this / \ BUT if you rotate the car 180% the rear becomes \ / and the front becomes / \ . So they are bolth doing the same thing but on oposite sides of the center point of the vehicle
 
after testing with an S2000, I am 99% that toe out in the rear is a positive number

| | <--- haven't got the front yet

\ / <--- + toe in the rear
 
Toe refers to the front facing point of the tire... regardless of front/rear toe-in (positive) is
/---\ and negative or toe-out is \---/

at least thats what all the books say. Is the game backwords as far as their settings? I only assumed that +1/-1 front/rear resulted in a car aligning like so:
/---\
oo
\---/

which will turn quite well
 
Ok its Positive TOE OUT, that we are implimenting with the + and Negative TOE OUT with the -

BUT KEEP IN MIND ANY POSITIVE TOE OUT RESULTS IN NEGATIVE TOE IN

so what your saying is accurate, but they are NOT refering to Toe IN, they are refering to TOE out, so Positive DOES aply.

\ / = Positive Toe out & Negative Toe in (for the front of the car front on top)

These are bolth reflections of the front wheels one with Positive toe one with negative.


/ \ = Negative Toe Out & Positive Toe in (for the front of the car front on top)


Toe always refers to the increase/decrease of distance apart of the outer points of the wheels in relation to the fixed centerpoint of the wheels. The outer point being the point of the wheel closest to the end of the car (front or the back) it dont matter


This is Positive toe out front and back

\ /

/ \

This is negative Toe out front and back

/ \

\ /


The OTHER detail that is confusing is front and rear, but its simple (it apears to be oposits, but is not) positive toe out in the front looks like this \ / and positive toe out in the rear looks like this / \ BUT if you rotate the car 180% the rear becomes \ / and the front becomes / \ . So they are bolth doing the same thing but on oposite sides of the center point of the vehicle


Its ALWAYS THE OUTER POINT OF THE WHEEL MESURED
 
And it doesnt help much ecept to help throw out the rear end, toe in the front is STUPID (picture your 2 front wheels trying to go away from eachother) in the rear it destabalises it so you can get the rear end out more (this is for cars who tend to understeer, rarly used as it slows the car down in the straight, and makes the car LESS pradictable in the corners) It CAN BE GOOD FOR DRIFTING it can help getting her sidways (rear) and it will help maintain high angle (front) but really for racing you should play with it too much.
 
Greyout
after testing with an S2000, I am 99% that toe out in the rear is a positive number

| | <--- haven't got the front yet

\ / <--- + toe in the rear
Click to expand...


WRONG, this is right:

| | <--- haven't got the front yet

/ \ <--- + toe in the rear

&

\ / <--- + toe in the front

| | <--- haven't got the rear yet

its always the OUTER PART OF THE WHEEL THAT INCREASES with + Toe

We are dealing with TOE OUT, NOT TOE IN.

I hope this helps finalize this discussion of already answered questions.
 
I will reverse the settings of my S2K when I get home from work, but I am pretty sure that when I increased the Toe to +3 in the rear, oversteer increased noticably
 
Greyout
I will reverse the settings of my S2K when I get home from work, but I am pretty sure that when I increased the Toe to +3 in the rear, oversteer increased noticably
Click to expand...

ABSOLUTLY

If you increase the toe in the rear you will destabalize the rear end of the car in the corner and cause you to oversteer (back end slide out). (Toe + is generally aplyed in the rear to help with a car that understeers)
 
that contradicts your other post that says + toe in the rear is this:

| | <-front
/ \ <-rear


ProtegeLX
WRONG, this is right:

| | <--- haven't got the front yet

/ \ <--- + toe in the rear
Click to expand...

having the leading edge of the tires aimed inwards increases straight line stability, and reduces oversteer.
 
Toe out = negative toe
Toe in = positive

If youre going fast on a straight, and thats your only goal, than you want TOE IN for both wheels, in general

If you want better conering you want TOE OUT like this \ / for the front wheels and the back. It is not different for the back as opposed to the front, negative toe always looks like my example.The back wheels create a more pronounced effect, but in GT4 its not that noticible unless you are really skilled at a particular track, so dont obsess over it!

Read these two racing pages and look @ mspecs racing guide

http://aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#Front toe

http://www.advancedracing.com/chassissetup.php
 
Greyout
that contradicts your other post that says + toe in the rear is this:

| | <-front
/ \ <-rear


having the leading edge of the tires aimed inwards increases straight line stability, and reduces oversteer.
Click to expand...


This is a copy past from my earlier post

NO it doesnt it says the same thing

WRONG, this is right:

| | <--- haven't got the front yet

/ \ <--- + toe in the rear

This IS and ALWAYS IS MY EXPLINATION, AS THAT IS WHAT IT IS!
 
Another Copy past from a earlier post aswell

This is Positive toe out front and back

\ /

/ \

This is negative Toe out front and back

/ \

\ /

WHERE HAVE I SAID DIFERENT??????????????????????????
 
SpeedyGonzalez
Toe out = negative toe
Toe in = positive

If youre going fast on a straight, and thats your only goal, than you want TOE IN for both wheels, in general

If you want better conering you want TOE OUT like this \ / for the front wheels and the back. It is not different for the back as opposed to the front, negative toe always looks like my example.The back wheels create a more pronounced effect, but in GT4 its not that noticible unless you are really skilled at a particular track, so dont obsess over it!

Read these two racing pages and look @ mspecs racing guide

http://aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#Front toe

http://www.advancedracing.com/chassissetup.php
Click to expand...




HOLLY ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IM finished with this TOPIC as you refuse to listen, Ive explained and explained, There are none blinder then those who refuse to see.

READ MY EARLIER POST IF YOU WANT A EXPLINATION AGAIN $ ANY NEW COMERS.
 
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TOE OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KEEP IN MIND + or - in this GAME REFER TO INCREASES OF THE LEVEL OF INCREASE , THE DONT REFER TO ADDING POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE TOE

(this is out of your quote)

Toe Definition
Toe relates to the difference in the distance between the front of the tires and the rear of the tires on the same axle, or to the vehicle centerline. Toe-in, or positive toe, is defined as the front of the tires being closer together than the rear of the tires. Toe-out, or negative toe, is when the rear of the tires are closer together than the front of the tires. Zero toe is when the tires are parallel to each other.


It sound funny because we are ADDING NEGATIVE toe (toe out) with the +
 
Now that I m checking things out, Its not evident if GT4 is talking about toe out or toe in OR weather + = inincrease in toe in or toe out or Positive or Negative Toe)

Until those perameters are defined its all debatable


Very perplexing!

Any body know what perameters the game is running on? :odd:
 
YOU CLAIM THIS

ProtegeLX
/ \ <--- + toe in the rear
Click to expand...

Then I said that I thought differently, because I has POSITIVE TOE in the rear, which made the car oversteer.

Greyout
I will reverse the settings of my S2K when I get home from work, but I am pretty sure that when I increased the Toe to +3 in the rear, oversteer increased noticably
Click to expand...

You say that I am wrong, that a negative value will increase oversteer, because
ProtegeLX
If you increase the toe in the rear you will destabalize the rear end of the car in the corner and cause you to oversteer (back end slide out). (Toe + is generally aplyed in the rear to help with a car that understeers)
Click to expand...
I am saying that you are wrong, because toe OUT
\ /
increases OVERSTEER. So if I am generating oversteer with a positive toe setting, then POSITIVE REAR TOE = THIS:
| |
\ / <--- REAR POSITIVE TOE / TOE OUT
 
Greyout
YOU CLAIM THIS



Then I said that I thought differently, because I has POSITIVE TOE in the rear, which made the car oversteer.



You say that I am wrong, that a negative value will increase oversteer, because

I am saying that you are wrong, because toe OUT
\ /
increases OVERSTEER. So if I am generating oversteer with a positive toe setting, then POSITIVE REAR TOE = THIS:
| |
\ / <--- REAR POSITIVE TOE / TOE OUT
Click to expand...

That is Toe in!

Well its questionable right now because the Places I check always refer to the front of the tire, but they dont indicate if the look at the vehicle from a center point. so with tha

it could be Toe out in the front and the rear is

\ /

\ /

And then you are corect BUT if they look at the vehicle from a center point it would be

\ /

/ \

There is alot of UNDEFINED ISHUES WITH THIS

I will humbaly RETRACT My statement untill further investigation into the perameters defined by the GAME, as Im uncertain of that
 
all I know is that the JDM version of the game has the [<---in/out--->] indicator under the slider.

The question is, if the rear is reversed like you mentioned above.
 
ProtegeLX
That is Toe in!
Click to expand...


LOL oh ok, I see where the confusion is.

In real life, regardless if you are setting up your race car at the track or getting your civic aligned at NTB, Toe out is used to describe the situation where the leading edges of your tires are facing out - if your tires started rolling foward, past the front of the car, on their own, they would gradually get farther and farther apart.

You are describing it as Toe in, because its as if you spun the car around and you are measuring the outside edges of all 4 corners of the car.

I see the miscommunication now :)

you are correct that it was done that way in GT3. There is no way to know what GT4 is doing though :(

In the scrolling text at the bottom, GT4 agrees that "toe out" is the way I described it - the leading edge of the tires angled outward. I just don't know what direction the slider means. I wish there was a screen shot of the JDM version to confirm the rumor I got from one person.

why can't they just have a close up of each component that you adjust, with clear markings about whats going on, like Colin McRae rally tuning :P
 

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