Top Gear's Top Hot Hatches

[YSSMAN]

...Figured this would be good to post and discuss. Previous Hot Hatch discussions have been heated, this one could be as well...

Peugeot 307 2.0 180GT
The Pug 205 GTi was the greatest hot hatch of all time. What happened?

Seat Ibiza 1.8T Cupra
Nothing to recommend it against a Focus ST or Swift Sport. Not special enough.

Mitsubishi Colt CZT
Good looking little thing, but a bit ropy in the chassis and steering.

Peugeot 207 GT
What happened Peugeot? What happened? What? We want to know. We do.

Citroen C2 VTS
More fun than you expect and cheap, too, at £12k before the discount.

Volvo C30 T5
Stodgy and soft. Same engine/chassis as Focus ST, but you'd never know.
(This may be one of my new favorite cars after the Chicago Auto Show)

Seat Leon Cupra
Disappointing. Powerful, but lacks quality. Should be better on GTI chassis.

VW Polo GTI
Golf GTI lookalike but without the chassis or power or much else, really.

Alfa Romeo 147 GTA
If style and charisma mean more to you than anything, this is number one.

Citroen C4 VTS
We like this car, but isn't it about time Citroen released a properly quick version? Mr Loeb is destroying all comers in the WRC, but the Loeb special edition was pants. How about it Citroen? 200bhp please, not 138. Must try harder.

Mazda3 MPS
Extremely fast and the most capable motorway tool here. Zero charm.

Ford SportKa
Ancient little battler which oozes character. Haggle and you'll get one for eight grand.

Skoda Octavia VRS
Shares its chassis with the Golf GTI, but lacks that car's grace and character.
(Wait, isn't that the Jetta GLI?)

Fiat Panda 100HP
Along with the Fiesta and the Swift, proves power isn't everything. Brilliant.

Skoda Fabia VRS
Its grunty diesel gruffness makes it stand out. Fast. Approach with caution.

Vauxhall Astra VXR
Very capable, very quick. Will worry any of the top ten in every area.

Suzuki Swift Sport
Number one choice for those on a budget - it's only 12 grand - or those who find insurance a pain (group 9 compared to the Fiesta ST's 12). Punches way, way above its weight. If you're not laughing after three corners, we don't want to know you.
(I wish we had this car in America...)

Ford Fiesta ST
Best of the lukewarm cheapies. £13,595 bargain and 0-60 in 7.9secs.

BMW 130i
Not exactly a hot hatch but its wonderful straight six and rear-drive lift it to eleventh.

VW Golf R32
A heavier, 4x4, 246bhp V6 Golf GTI was never going to be bad. Expensive, though.
(Yay! We're getting these this spring! Only 5000 of them though...)

Renaultsport Megane 225 Cup
Doesn't have the same trick diff as the higher-placed R26, but shares all of its drama.

Audi S3
At £26,975 its 4x4 greatness isn't worth the extra over the Golf GTI.

Renaultsport Megane R26
No. 1 for petrolheads. Awesome grip and power, but getting old now.

Mini Cooper S
Comes as close to the 197 as it's possible to get, but it's an estate agent's car.
(Could the speedo be any bigger inside the car? Its about the same as the plates I eat supper on...)

Renaultsport Clio 197
Scrapping like a rabid little mad-eyed terrier among the top four big dogs, the Clio cares not a jot for its smaller size. Some think it's too soft after the 182. Others think its refinement makes it better. Either way, it's a great car.

VW Golf GTi Edition 30
An extra 20bhp, but the Ed 30 doesn't justify three grand extra. Doesn't look right either.

Ford Focus ST
222bhp for only £17,795 and the equal of any chassis here. Very close to number one.
(Thanks for screwing us again Ford...)

VW Golf GTi
Still the best all-rounder. The Type R pips it with its edginess, but just feel the quality.

Honda Civic Type R
The best hot hatch, just. Rev-hungry, powerful engine an utter gem.

So, other thank kicking the Type-R off the top spot for the GTI, I guess I can't see too many changes coming from me. We get just a few of those models in America, so I leave it to everyone else to pitch their two cents in...

 

[KSaiyu]

hmmmmmmm it's interesting. Personally I rely on Evo for comparisons especially between hot hatches. I'm not one to argue though since I haven't driven any of those cars but I have a feeling if it was my cash I'd get the Swift Sport or Renault 197/Renault Megane.

 

[Takumi Fujiwara]

You know what really bugs me here?

29 cars on this list. We get five of them.

 

[TYP-27R]

looks obviously don't go to CTR but performance sure does...

 

[YSSMAN]

You know what really bugs me here?

29 cars on this list. We get five of them.

Here here. More are coming hopefully with the addition of Alfa, and rumors have suggested in the past that Citroen and Renault want to come back to America eventually.

...Mitsubishi was apparently entertaining the idea of brining the Colt to America, but nothing has yet to happen. Same goes with the Swift for Suzuki, however our SX4 is based on that car. And as for the Skoda Octavia, it is just a Jetta GLI in Skoda form, so you can kinda count it...

 

[Keef]

I actually agree with you, YSSMAN. I hate the European Type R. It sucks. It's way too flashy and refined. Far too styled and pretty. While the engine is fantastic, as is typical of a Type R, the suspension is an abomination. We've already seen examples of how the Type R's performance is a relative disappointmen.

I downgrade the Type R because it's a traitor to its bloodline. The GTI isn't, though. In fact, it's the rejuvination of the GTI family.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Hot hatches are fun and all, but some of those cars are so small that a compact coupe (like America's new favorite forced-induction funbox, the Cobalt SS) become equally practical.

I'd definitely like to see a few of those cars over here (and I think we are getting the Astra vis a vis Saturn), but hey, we've got some nice compacts stateside to play around with.

Now if only Nissan would seriously invest in the SE-R nameplate on a compact coupe once again. The last Sentra they stuck the badge on never quite matched up with competitors.

 

[TheCracker]

Top Gear is the only british mag i've seen that rates the new Type R. All the others don't really like it.

 

[niky]

Autoexpress likes it.

I think it has to do with the testing environment and the testers. Some people (moi included) just don't like the steering on new Civics.

What would really be swell is if some enterprising soul could get both the Type-R and the Si together and compare them side by side.

 

[G.T]

Yes. I read last night that Autocar's test of the Type-R was in wet conditions... Maybe it would improve once they test on a dry road.

Nevertheless, it's surprising to see the S3 right up there.

 

[Poverty]

Why is it surprising to see the S3 up there. In a straight line roll one it will keep up with imprezas due to less power loss through the transmission.

The only NA hot htach I would get is the Clio 197. Otherwise its Turbo power all the way. Its nice to now that a little chip can turn a VAG turbo powered vehicle into a complete monster. Some eibach springs will tighten up the handling too, if you dont mind sacrificing comfort like some of the other vehicles in this list have from standard.

 

[Casio]

Why is it surprising to see the S3 up there..In a straight line roll one it will keep up with imprezas due to less power loss through the transmission.

Because it's too expensive and crap? For less I could buy say....Oh...an actual Impreza.

 

[G.T]

It's considerably more expensive and a little heavier compared to the others up top. Sure, you buy into the quality and performance (for a hatchback), but I certainly would be tempted for another on the list due to a much lower price tag.

 

[Poverty]

Because it's too expensive and crap? For less I could buy say....Oh...an actual Impreza.

How is it crap? Do you evene drive?

Imprezas depreciate like a stone drops when it hits water. Audi's hold their value better. 26k isnt that expensive, as otherwise you would say the same for the beemer and VW which cost about the same give or take a grand, whilst the audi has a much better interior and is faster than both.

And to get an impreza that is faster than the audi it would cost just as much or more

It's considerably more expensive and a little heavier compared to the others up top. Sure, you buy into the quality and performance (for a hatchback), but I certainly would be tempted for another on the list due to a much lower price tag.

Its only something like 50kgs heavier than the beemer and only one or two grand more expensive.

 

[G.T]

Its only something like 50kgs heavier than the beemer and only one or two grand more expensive.

Hence why I mentioned the Audi instead of the BMW. A couple of grand is a big difference in a class like this.

Compared to other cars near the top of the list, it's around £6-8k more expensive. Yes, it may depreciate a little less, but any car always gets hit badly in the first few years you own it, and after spending £27k that many people don't have (it's £26,975 according to Whatcar?, not £26k), you'll just be loosing more in the long run.

How is it crap? Do you evene drive?

And have you driven every other hatch on the list? I haven't. I doubt you have either.

 

[niky]

Said Beemer also scored lower.

I kind of think the bad vibes people get from the S3 is from thinking it would be comprehensively better than the Golf GTi... but the current GTi is so good, it raises expectations for everything based on the same platform. Heck, they even scored the Golf R32 as lower than the GTi.

Plus, it's very hard to keep these platform derivatives on the correct side of porky if the base model is already so heavy. What I'm noticing is: front wheel drive VWs and Audis are gaining praises for their handling, but some of the AWD versions are suffering in comparisons and road testing from the extra weight.

Maybe an RS3 model could gain the S3 a little more respect from the judges... but in any list which holds "bang-for-buck" as important, Audi is always going to be handicapped by the premium pricing... still, I'm starting to see some praises for it elsewhere... shame that it costs so much more than the Golf.

Still, it's nice to see that more and more Audi models are picking up the handling vibe... hope the A5 will be similar.

 

[Casio]

How is it crap? Do you evene drive?

Not that it matters. Yes. Hell. I even drive a VAG product.

And to get an impreza that is faster than the audi it would cost just as much or more

The 07MY WRX STi Type UK is £480 cheaper and faster.

Even the regular WRX Wagon (Because it's more comparable to the hatch), is pretty much just as fast as the Audi (5.7 - 5.9), and it's £5990 cheaper.

 

[Poverty]

Not that it matters. Yes. Hell. I even drive a VAG product.



The 07MY WRX STi Type UK is £480 cheaper and faster.

Even the regular WRX Wagon (Because it's more comparable to the hatch), is pretty much just as fast as the Audi (5.7 - 5.9), and it's £5990 cheaper.

The audi will gobble up the wagon after 60mph, and wont lose half its value as soon as you drive it of the forecourt. Funny thing is 3 guys over on scoobynet have now swapped their STI in for a audi S3

 

[Famine]

The audi will gobble up the wagon after 60mph, and wont lose half its value as soon as you drive it of the forecourt. Funny thing is 3 guys over on scoobynet have now swapped their STI in for a audi S3

Odd. The usual process for Scoobynet is:

Acquire cheap Impreza.
Join Scoobynet and rave about how it's the best car ever - disagree with any newer Impreza owners.
Acquire newer Impreza (MkIII).
Rave about how it's the best car ever - disagree with any older Impreza owners.
Sell a couple more houses for the firm.
Acquire Porsche 911.
Disown Scoobynet.

 

[Car-less]

26k isnt that expensive, as otherwise you would say the same for the beemer and VW which cost about the same give or take a grand, whilst the audi has a much better interior and is faster than both.

I'd have the Focus ST & the Suzuki Swift for about the same as the Audi with one years insurance. 26k+ is too much. If I was looking to spend that much on a luxury barge, it'd better be as big as said barge.

 

[YSSMAN]

Audi's hold their value better. 26k isnt that expensive, as otherwise you would say the same for the beemer and VW which cost about the same give or take a grand, whilst the audi has a much better interior and is faster than both.

One problem; The VW Rabbit R32. I'd rate that far-higher than the S3 in most circumstances given the similar performance, looks, etc. That, and I save quite a bit of money, get nearly the same quality interior, and can do without the flashy S-Line badges.

...Yes, we don't have the S3 in America (yet), but the R32 will be here soon (only 5000, SUXORZ), and if the previous model is any indication how non-existent the depreciation is on that car, no worries for us here in America...

 

[Poverty]

But heres the thing, the audi is alot easier and cheaper to tune. One MTM remap available from the audi dealer will give you 310bhp, and not void your warranty

The old 1.8T was good for 400hp on stock internals, and this 2.0T is meant to be even better.

 

[KSaiyu]

I dunno, the S3 seems dull to me in the same way the Mk4 Golf GTI was, just too "executive" for my liking.

 

[YSSMAN]

But heres the thing, the audi is alot easier and cheaper to tune. One MTM remap available from the audi dealer will give you 310bhp, and not void your warranty

The old 1.8T was good for 400hp on stock internals, and this 2.0T is meant to be even better.

I'm not certain how much that would really matter. The amount of extra money you're going to spend getting the four-rings in the grille with the S-Badge already puts you far-ahead of the R32, way beyond that of the GTI, both of which have quite the reputation for modification here in America. Given the close relationship between HPA, Neuspeed, and VW, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to get similar power figures of the S3 with either of the Golf/Rabbit models, and arguably for far-less than what we will eventually pay for the car in America.

...As it is, the A3 really isn't that much of a value over the GTI in America, and I doubt the S3 will be that big of a difference over the R32 either (outside of the engine differences of course)...

 

[El Jarretto]

But heres the thing, the audi is alot easier and cheaper to tune. One MTM remap available from the audi dealer will give you 310bhp, and not void your warranty

The old 1.8T was good for 400hp on stock internals, and this 2.0T is meant to be even better.

Yeah but you can get the Mk. 4 R32 or Mk. 5 R32 with a NA VR6 already making 250hp, turbo that and you've got even more power. Honestly I'd but the 1 series or R32 up top, the only hot hatch made in the last few years I'd have over the new R32 is the Mk. 4 R32.

 

[Poverty]

Tuning the 3.2 VR6 is extremly expensive in Europe, for what you get in return, and I cant see it being much cheaper to tune in the US. The only time the 3.2 VR6 is a better choice for tuning is if your gonna throw tens of thousands of pounds at it, otherwise the 2.0T is a better proposition. Plus its lighter aswell.

 

[YSSMAN]

This is how we do it in the USA:

HPA Motorsports

A couple grand here and there can get you more than 500 BHP if you desire. Volkswagen has been going to these guys for a while now, particularly with their R-Line concepts. Most of their specialty lies with the 3.2L VR6 in its various forms, but they are supposed to be working on a new line for the 2.0T, and still continue to do plenty of work with the old 1.8T if you so desire.

...The big problem is that we don't yet have the MKV R32 in America, so we aren't going to "know" everything yet, but they should be arriving shortly. Only 5000 models on the first run, and we'll have to see if VW plans on making it a yearly allotment or not...

 

[Poverty]

This is how we do it in the USA:

HPA Motorsports

A couple grand here and there can get you more than 500 BHP if you desire. Volkswagen has been going to these guys for a while now, particularly with their R-Line concepts. Most of their specialty lies with the 3.2L VR6 in its various forms, but they are supposed to be working on a new line for the 2.0T, and still continue to do plenty of work with the old 1.8T if you so desire.

...The big problem is that we don't yet have the MKV R32 in America, so we aren't going to "know" everything yet, but they should be arriving shortly. Only 5000 models on the first run, and we'll have to see if VW plans on making it a yearly allotment or not...

Going by that site to get 400hp out of the 3.2 VR6 costs over twice as much as getting 400hp out of the old 1.8T. Damn 12 grand for 400hp is alot of money.

A review.


Audi A3
Test Date 14 February 2007 Price When New £26,975

For Real-world performance, fine ride and handling, desirability, economy

AgainstExpensive, exterior is a little too plain

Background

Audi has been on a roll of late, what with the excellent new TT, the fine-to-drive RS4 and the downright delicious R8.

But spare a moment for the way it once was at Ingolstadt. Not so long ago, the first-generation S3 stood alone as the one genuinely good car to drive in Audi’s range. And that was less than three years ago.

What the original S3 did that no other Audi could replicate at the time was deliver a full and complete package of abilities to its intended audience. It looked good, went well, handled tidily and had a very smart interior. And all for only a small premium above its more mainstream competition.

Except in reality it had almost no competition. At the time there were no other high-quality, high-performance four-wheel-drive hatchbacks on the market. The EvoBishi brigade bought Subarus and Evos, the rest of the market bought S3s, and there was virtually no crossover between the two. Audi had a niche in the market all to itself.

Amazingly, and despite the S3 selling in consistently big numbers since its birth in 1999, that’s still the case with the all-new car today. At £26,975, the latest S3 has virtually no obvious rivals apart from those within VW’s own stable, most notably the £24,240 Golf R32. Considering the S3 is turbocharged, very obviously faster and more dynamic to drive, not to mention considerably further up the tree in terms of prestige, the R32 is hardly what you’d call stiff competition.

The one area in which the R32 could be deemed to be superior to the S3 is in the engine bay. It uses VW’s 3.2-litre V6, whereas the S3 makes do with nothing more than a more powerful version of the four-cylinder direct-injection turbocharged engine found in the Golf GTi. However, do not for one moment think the S3 is a poor relation in this respect. In fact, it uses the four-cylinder turbo engine because extracting more power from the V6 was simply not possible without going to vast expense.

read the rest of the review onhttp://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsHistory/Audi-A3-S3/224171/

 

[azevedojose]

I don't really think the new Civic Type-R deserves the first place, neither in looks or dynamics. I prefer to check EVO.co.uk star-rating.

 

[Dave A]

extracting more power from the V6 was simply not possible without going to vast expense.

This comment here Poverty, is not referring to the cost of aftermarket tuning, it isn't that expensive to get a VR6 engine up in power over here. At the very worst you can import the stuff from America. Rather that's referring to the deveopment of increasing the power of the engine in the factory. To buy parts to tune your engine aftermarket, you arn't spending anything on the research so the cost is far lower compared to a manufacturer trying to increase the spec of an engine. Hence, it was cheaper to just use an engine that they didn't need to do any further research on to achieve that or alternatively they didn't need to source any parts they didn't already have ect.