Torque/Power Question

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angloamerican73
Hey Guys

Can someone please explain in laymans terms (as simple as possible), how does the whole torque/power affect cars?. Ive looked on google, and found tons of info, but its all too technical. So i thought id ask on here in hope to get a better understanding, rather than just getting a headache through too much info.

Thanks in advance.

AngloAmerican
 
power defines what speed you approach the wall. Torque defines how much of the wall you can take with you.
 
Torque is the force that twists the wheels. Horsepower spins them faster.

Horsepower is how well torque is used. The wheels won't start moving without torque
 
So how does a car with less HP (say 150) beat a car with a lot more?. I read on here somewhere that it was down to Torque, and it confused me, hence the question. I actually think the post i read said that a car with 200HP can beat a car with 350-500HP just by the torque difference alone. Can that be true??.

Thanks guys.

AngloAmerican
 
So how does a car with less HP (say 150) beat a car with a lot more?. I read on here somewhere that it was down to Torque, and it confused me, hence the question. I actually think the post i read said that a car with 200HP can beat a car with 350-500HP just by the torque difference alone. Can that be true??.

Thanks guys.

AngloAmerican

Well, if you have a 500HP car with even the same torque figure as a 200HP car, the more powerful will win everytime. That would be a very tough for the low powered car to win.

And torque isnt everything. Look at diesels. LOADS of torque, less power than petrol counterparts, and they are slower.

Also, torque is multiplied by your RPM's, which is why Honda can get away with low torque engines and make up for them in revs, because it will hit peak torque more often than say, a GM OHV engine that makes peak torque at 2,500 rpm.
 
car that has less power and torque can win if it has better power to weight ratio.

VERY true *Que Elise*

I was taking a differenct approach, of all things being equal except the engine, just to make it easier.
 
Well, if you have a 500HP car with even the same torque figure as a 200HP car, the more powerful will win everytime. That would be a very tough for the low powered car to win.

And torque isnt everything. Look at diesels. LOADS of torque, less power than petrol counterparts, and they are slower.

Also, torque is multiplied by your RPM's, which is why Honda can get away with low torque engines and make up for them in revs, because it will hit peak torque more often than say, a GM OHV engine that makes peak torque at 2,500 rpm.

Wrong. In fact, torque is divided by your RPMs, as follows:

Torque(in ft.lbs) = Horsepower(hp) x 5252 / RPM

I have no idea why that 5252 was thrown in when the equation was being made, but there it is.
 
5252 is the exact RPM where all torque bands and HP bands cross. In short, a 5,252 RPM, the torque and HP numbers are exactly the same.

And torque isnt everything. Look at diesels. LOADS of torque, less power than petrol counterparts, and they are slower.
Audi and Peugeot would both like a word with you.
 
I'd hope not, because the R10 and 908 don't apply to this discussion. They have more torque and more power than their competitors, and they have a rule set that favors them.
 
literally a good engine should have good low-rpm torque and high HP at the higher revs....


*a torquey engine can get the car accelerate out of a corner faster, quicker and easier with less frequent gearchange while low torque engine will suffer at the corner exit untill the rev was high enough into the powerband in chasing the power at specific rpm that the engine produce....(this explain the audi r10 diesel victory in racing)
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*but..a high HP car will outshine in top speed races/tracks with lots of straight line


*just take the BMW 1series diesel and petrol for comparison and race it in costa d' amali...
 
remember, even if your car has more torque, always shift for the power band.

your car is faster in the powerband. horsepower is simply torque at upper rpm's pretty much,

the quicker you torque band peaks, and falls off, the lower power you have. so to raise horsepower, you shift the torque band to higher rpm's and the slower drop off will yield more horsepower. but, unfortunately, since you moved torque forward, it will be lower than it was before. you get what I am saying?

like a set of new cylinder heads on a engine. the airflow is tuned to make more torque at higher rpm, so it makes more horsepower.



horsepower is a direct indictaion of your torque curve. essentially, horsepower is a byproduct of the engine making torque......engines make torque. torque is important......I drive an LT1 car.....I love torque....lol
 
5252 is the exact RPM where all torque bands and HP bands cross. In short, a 5,252 RPM, the torque and HP numbers are exactly the same.


Audi and Peugeot would both like a word with you.

That's totally irrelevant, those are race cars!

Lets take the Audi R8, then the Diesel R8. The petrol one will be faster, but get worse mpg
 
Anyone still looking for answers should read this excellent article written by a 'Vette owner on how horsepower and torque are related:

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

The short answer, as taken from that article, is that it's better to produce torque at a high RPM (peak horsepower) than it is to produce torque at a low RPM (peak torque), because you can take advantage of gearing.

In other words, "Horsepower > Torque."
 
So am i right in assuming that the more torque the car has, the quicker it will be getting up to higher speeds, over cars with lesser torque?.

AngloAmerican
 
Not quite. The more torque a car has, the harder the car will pull its weight. There are many, many factors that go into whether one car is faster than another.
 
Not quite. The more torque a car has, the harder the car will pull its weight. There are many, many factors that go into whether one car is faster than another.

Ah ok.

Its still a little confusing to me, :dunce: but in a weird kind of way its starting to make sense as well :)

AngloAmerican
 
Ah ok.

Its still a little confusing to me, :dunce: but in a weird kind of way its starting to make sense as well :)

AngloAmerican
For a simplified idea, imagine a bicycle. Torque is how hard you move the pedals. Horsepower is how hard AND how quickly you move them.
 
Hey Guys

Can someone please explain in laymans terms (as simple as possible), how does the whole torque/power affect cars?. Ive looked on google, and found tons of info, but its all too technical. So i thought id ask on here in hope to get a better understanding, rather than just getting a headache through too much info.

Thanks in advance.

AngloAmerican

Here you go.

Torque is what gets you going...Horsepower is what KEEPS you going! And what keeps you winning! :lol:

No seriously...max torque is the area at which your engine is giving its all (in terms of twist-force). Think of all those times your mom or GF or whoever has asked you to open a jar. You twist and twist and twist till the lid finally opens. That point at which the lid opens is where you're giving maximum torque with your wrist, hand, and arms.

Max HP is the area at which your engine will be spinning at its fastest in the the shortest amount of time (if that makes any sense)..


In other words, let's look at a C4 Corvette. Let's say its max power is at 5,200 rpms (I think that's where it lies in a C4). Now drive it down a long straight section. Watch the tachometer as you drive in higher gears (3rd gear or higher).

As the tach-needle nears 5,200 rpms, you'll notice a small "bump" in the speed.

Now as the "Vette passes 5,200 rpms (or wherever max HP is) you'll notice the tach-needle starts to slow. Yes, the car is going faster at 6,000 rpms than it was at 5,200 rpms, but the speed isn't building at the same rate as it was at max-HP. Make sense?
 
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Here you go.

Torque is what gets you going...Horsepower is what KEEPS you going! And what keeps you winning! :lol:

No seriously...max torque is the area at which your engine is giving its all (in terms of twist-force). Think of all those times your mom or GF or whoever has asked you to open a jar. YOu twist and twist and twist till the lid finally opens. That point at which the lid opens is where you're giving maximum torque with your wrist, hand, and arms.

Max HP is the area at which your engine will be spinning at its fastest in the the shortest amount of time (if that makes any sense)..


In other words, let's look at a C4 Corvette. Let's say its max power is at 5,200 rpms (i think that's where it lies in a C4). Now drive it down a long straight section. Watch the tachometer as you drive in higher gears (3rd gear or higher).

As the tach-needle nears 5,200 rpms, you'll notice a small "bump" in the speed.

Now as the "vette passes 5,200 rpms (or wherever max HP is) you'll notice the tach-needle starts to slow. Yes, the car is going faster at 6,000 rpms than it was at 5,200 rpms, but the speed isn't building at the same rate as it was at max-HP. Make sense?

👍

Makes perfect sense i think Parnelli Bone.

So in any car, the point after where the torque and power intersect is where the speed does not build up as fast as it were prior to that?. Im going by the little graph in the car settings window offcourse when i say that.

Oh btw just so you know im an Englisman living in the states now. Since ive been here (four years and counting), i dont open jars by hand anymore. I use one of those jar opener thingys :sly:

Call me lazy i know :)

AngloAmerican
 
👍

Makes perfect sense i think Parnelli Bone.

So in any car, the point after where the torque and power intersect is where the speed does not build up as fast as it were prior to that?. Im going by the little graph in the car settings window offcourse when i say that.

Oh btw just so you know im an Englisman living in the states now. Since ive been here (four years and counting), i dont open jars by hand anymore. I use one of those jar opener thingys :sly:

Call me lazy i know :)

AngloAmerican

Nono... The point where the car is not accelerating as quickly as it was is where the power and torque curves start falling away.


Also, some cars may achieve peak acceleration before peak power actually hits. 5bhp doesn't make up for 40 ft-lbs of torque.
 
👍

Makes perfect sense i think Parnelli Bone.

So in any car, the point after where the torque and power intersect is where the speed does not build up as fast as it were prior to that?. Im going by the little graph in the car settings window offcourse when i say that.

No not quite. Here's where it gets a bit complex.

Speed generally builds faster and faster till Peak Horsepower is passed. After Peak HP, speed starts to fall off, and you'll generally notice your car will now seem to slow. Shift gears again...and if the tachometer falls below peak HP, you'll again notice a bump in the speed. This is why in some cars (such as the Viper and many muscle cars) it's important to shift early so you keep hitting that precious area that falls between peak torque and peak horsepower. This is where your engine will be going its fastest in the shortest amount of time.

With some cars, you might even want to shift early (before redline) just to keep hitting this area between torque & HP, because your car will be faster overall. But this is a judgement call. Sometimes, in some cars, you'll actually want them to redline (or nearly hit the RPM limiter) because there's still some usable power available after peak HP has passed.

With each engine, if you study the engine graph, and open up your car's stats in the garage (the screen just before you go to sell a car) it will tell you exactly where peak torque and peak HP lie. Once you know this, you can get a feel for where best performance lies.



Now, this is the case, unless a car's aerodynamics or gearing has already prevented speed from building any further in the first place.

In other words, let's say you set your gearing real tall, or you step into a car with real tall gearing. The Honda Odyssey is a great example. As you drive around the Test Course, eventually the Odyssey's engine gives its all, and it simply can't go any faster. Even tho it's got a 5-speed tranny, yet once the Odyssey is in 4th gear, it seems like it's out-of-steam, and it never shifts into 5th. And if YOU shift it into 5th, it will immediately start to SLOW.

Aerodynamics also limit a car's speed sometimes....case in point the Dodge Ram. Here we've got the HEMI, one of the most torquey, powerful engines on the American market. Yet above 100 mph or so, you'll notice the Ram really starts to struggle with speed because it's got a huge frontal area, and the engine (as powerful as it is) is giving its all, even tho you're not necessarily near peak horsepower area.


Different engines create different torque & horsepower shapes when plotted onto a graph.

In general, a car's speed will start to build exponentially after the peak-torque has been passed, and it starts to fall after peak horsepower has been passed. Some cars have other factors that modify this, however.

Many Acura and Honda/VTEC engines have their torque and power peak very near one another (peak torque at 7,000 and peak HP at 7,600 rpms, for instance). An engine like this is described as having a "narrow" power-band. The engine graph winds up looking very "spiky" when plotted on a grid. With a small, narrow-band, 4-cylinder engine such as this, you'll really need to keep shifting gears constantly so that you keep the tachometer in or near the correct power-band.

You may notice that if you shift gears too early with such an engine (let's say you shift early and the tachometer lands at about 3,000 rpms in 4th gear or something) it will "bog down"--or it will start to struggle to regain speed. So it's important to keep shifting gears (or set up with an automatic that does this) if you are to keep speed as constant as possible.

Some other engines have a "wide" power band. The Lancia Stratos is a great example. Even tho its V6 is still rather small, here we have peak torque at 3,000 rpms, and peak horsepower at 7,000. With such an engine, you don't have to be quite as careful when shifting gears...generally anywhere from 3,000 to 7,000 is safe.

Then you have torque-monster engines like the V8s in TVRs. I've literally been racing such a car, found myself leaving a tight corner, and then pounced on the throttle in the wrong gear (4th gear when I shoulda been in 3rd for instance) so that the tach falls waaay below both the peak torque and peak HP areas (tach falls to 2,000 rpms, let's say) and it don't matter! These torquey engines have such great twist-force (and in a light car) that they'll pull pull pulllll....

So I'm just trying to illustrate that from car to car (and engine to engine) torque and power combine with gearing, weight, drivetrain layout, and other factors, so that many cars in GT or real-life require a different approach.

....sorry, I know you wnated simple answers. But I'm Parnelli Bones. :guilty: I get carried away with stuff like this. :guilty:

Oh btw just so you know im an Englisman living in the states now. Since ive been here (four years and counting), i dont open jars by hand anymore. I use one of those jar opener thingys :sly:

Call me lazy i know :)

AngloAmerican

:lol: 👍
 
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Thanks for the added info Rotary Junkie and Parnelli Bone.

I will have to let that info digest and see what i come up with.

Am i that stupid?, or is it really that tricky to understand. Bear in mind im at around 35% complete in GT4, and im at the point where any info i get that can help me choose cars for the races ahead is much needed. Id rather pick cars out myself than read a guide which tell me what to use. Im not that good of a driver anyway, hence me only having 20 golds out of 80. I tend to over speed and brake late a lot, which apparently isnt the way to go from here on out. Its funny but in GT2 i was the smooth as silk driver, yet it never carried on through into GT3 and GT4........weird. Anyway thanks again for the info.

AngloAmerican
 
Thanks for the added info Rotary Junkie and Parnelli Bone.

I will have to let that info digest and see what i come up with.

Am i that stupid?, or is it really that tricky to understand.

No, you aint stupid. You're just learning.

It's not that tricky to understand, there's just a lot of cars in GT4 and different forces affect all of them different. But to simplify & summarize:

Torque = twist force. Peak torque = where you engine has its maximum twisting-force (like the strong person taking the lid off the jar I mentioned before; the moment where you're twisting as hard as you can = peak torque..you can think of engines this way).

Peak Horsepower = the moment where (generally) your engine will be spinning at its fastest in the shortest amount of time. Or, once you've got the lid of the jar loose, you can spin it faster and faster. 💡 Eventually, you'll hit a "limit" as to how fast you can spin it.

The actual mathematical definition of horsepower was calculated long ago (in the 18th century I think) and is more complex, because it involved an actual horse pulling weight off the ground via ropes & pulleys; and in my opinion this doesn't translate easily for a layman when trying to compare this scenario to a modern car. :boggled:

Bear in mind im at around 35% complete in GT4, and im at the point where any info i get that can help me choose cars for the races ahead is much needed. Id rather pick cars out myself than read a guide which tell me what to use. Im not that good of a driver anyway, hence me only having 20 golds out of 80.

Hey if you have ANY golds, you must be somewhat good, right? All this stuff takes time to learn. Hell, I'm 41 and I'm still learning stuff about cars, so no harm/no foul or whatever they say.

I tend to over speed and brake late a lot, which apparently isnt the way to go from here on out. Its funny but in GT2 i was the smooth as silk driver, yet it never carried on through into GT3 and GT4........weird. Anyway thanks again for the info.

AngloAmerican

GT2 is a completely different world from GT4. I know cuz I recently did some driving for Zukiru's GT2 SVX thread. Cars in GT2 DO NOT understeer, man! Well, they understeer maybe 10% of what they do compared to GT4! :lol:
 
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A uni student on GTP (here) taught me that power is in fact torque/unit time.
Let me explain (I won't use actual data, but you'll get the point)
Let's say we have 2 cars, one has 300hp and 300Nm, the other has 250hp and 350Nm of torque. So assuming all else equal, which is faster? Well, the engine with 250hp and 350Nm can produce a lot of torque, but it can't produce it as rapidly as the 300hp engine. Let's say:
The 300hp engine makes its' 300Nm 3 times a second (because obviously it is revving faster to make more power than the other car, so it ignites more often)
The 250hp engine, however, only makes its 350Nm 2 times a second.

Yeah, the 250hp engine made more peak torque, but because the 300hp engine (literally, because it has more power, this is a measure of how rapidly it produces torque), made 300Nm 3 times a second, in 1sec it puts a tally of 900Nm to the road, while in the 250hp engine, only 700Nm were put to the road in that 1sec. Therefore the engine with more horsepower has more applied torque so it can accelerate faster.
I might add though, the 250hp engine can probably get a faster launch, because the higher torque will just twist the axle (hence move the wheels), with more force than the 300hp engine, so initially the 250hp engine can apply more force and get a better launch.

Note also, the engines are producing less torque than peak torque at peak power, if you know what I mean. Examples suck, but I hope you get the idea of what I'm saying. It's also worthy of note, that big torque engines have probably got more power down low, so at low revs they will likely accelerate faster, but on a race track, to get the most speed out of a car, you maintain fairly high revs, so unless it's a hairpin, low revs won't come into play very often. Also note, if the engine can make massive amounts more torque than another engine, even if it revs lower it will probably end up producing more power (5 torque x 2 revs > 3 torque x 3 revs). That's why big American V8s, despite not revving very high, can produce ballistic amounts of power, because they produce even more ballistic amounts of torque.
 
Hey if you have ANY golds, you must be somewhat good, right? All this stuff takes time to learn. Hell, i'm 41 and i'm still learning stuff about cars, so no harm/no foul or whatever they say.

Over here ive noticed they say "no biggie" a lot :lol:

Thanks for trying to make me understand all this. It really is an area which im totally lost in, tho i doubt it would stop me completing GT4 if i never did get it. Ive just never been into cars that much really. Ive always played GT games from the very beginning. But its stuff like that which ive kind of ignored, and just got through without knowing it. My favourite type of cars are the American Muscle cars funnily enough, which as you have said are the kind that are big on torque. Saying that one of my favs in the game is the TVR V8S 91 which has boat loads as well, yet to me seems relativley easy to handle. 👍

AngloAmerican
 
That's cool, AngAmerican. Glad we could help. I don't say "no biggie" personally...my ex used to, tho. :boggled:



Holden's examples are good too, he's basically illustrating the difference between high-torque/lower hp engines and lower torque/high hp engines (among other things). A diesel engine in your typical city bus or semi won't have alot of horsepower, but they're packed with tons of torque...this is because it's more important for such a vehicle to simply move than it is to be super-fast in doing so.

A motorcycle engine, on the other hand, doesn't need much torque to get moving...there won't be much weight to move...so they concentrate on revs and speed..what torque there is is being used for acceleration most of the time with this application.


dangit, now I'm getting complicated again.:guilty:...just trying to confuse you, Anglo! :lol:
 
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That's cool, AngAmerican. Glad we could help. I dont' say "no biggie" personally...my ex used to, tho. :boggled: So i tend to associate "no biggie" as girly, which it aint at all; it's just what i think of when i hear it! :)

I find myself saying "no worries" or "no worry" alot. :lol: Guess since i'm a bit of a stoner, and that's the thing all the heads say..."no worries"--in other words--"let's procrastinate!" "Let's not get anything done!" :lol: Whateva.



Holden's examples are good too, he's basically illustrating the difference between high-torque/lower hp engines and lower torque/high hp engines (among other things). A diesel engine in your typical city bus or semi wont' have alot of horsepower, but they're packed with tons of torque...this is becasue it's more important for such a vehicle to simply move than it is to be super-fast in doing so.

A motorcyle engine, on the other hand, doesn't need much torque to get moving...there wont' be much weight to move...so they concentrate on revs and speed..what torque there is is being used for acceleration most of the time with this application.


dangit, now i'm getting complicated again.:guilty:...just trying to confuse you, Anglo! :lol:

No worries. (I'm not a stoner, I'm Australian!):lol:

It can get pretty complicated at times, you have to look at all the facts to determine which car will be faster.
 
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