Toyota brings excitement back to their lineup!

[homeforsummer]

Fair enough. But...

...I'm just saying there's nothing boring about the IS350.👍

...probably not. But then that's not exactly affordable either. The cheapest, slowest IS in the UK is £22k. The most expensive the last-gen Celica used to be £23k. The most expensive MR2 with every toy imaginable was £21k and they started at only £17k.

These sorts of cars are more affordable and arguably more fun, yet Toyota just doesn't produce anything like them at the moment.

You can certainly make a "big lumbering saloon" as you call it very fast, very fun and very sporty, and if anything it will be cheaper than a sports car so it's even more available to the average bloke. (As evidenced by the M3, the sedan is cheaper than the Coupe).

Woah there. The M3 is hardly affordable to the average bloke! I'm not talking sports cars like Porsches, I'm talking sports cars like MR-2s and MX-5s. Which are vastly more affordable than a super-saloon.

And I reiterate - I very much doubt many people buy M3s, IS-Fs and the like to have fun in the corners and spend their day sideways. They buy them because their buttocks, wallets and egos are large and they want the best badge and want everyone to know they're driving something fast, even if their driving talent would run out long before second gear.

 

[Jim Prower]

The IS250 6MT isn't HORRID at what it does, though there's certain "other" cars that can do the job better. (3-series, C-class, G37/Skyline) In the US, there's an entire lineup of F-sport accessories for the car as well...and, I think, an HKS exhaust for those who wanna be JDMtyte, but, still, that stuff is stuff that should be on the car from the get go.

Lexus is swiftly falling into the pit that GM's Cadillac and Buick divisions fell into: relying on the elderly core buyership.

Toyota, on the other hand, is relying on the currently quite powerful Liberal Left to remain on their side. They're playing politics the best they can...when and if the country/world takes a hard right turn, they'll be in trouble, though.

I've read that the IS-F originally shouldn't have been in existence in the first place: shows where Toyota's priorities really are - with the Greenpeace/tree-hugger crowd. It's really quite genius at the moment: why sling mud when environmentalists can sling it for you? After all, Toyota never says it, it's usually some environmentalists going out and painting US carmakers as gas-guzzling hogs. (not that it's necessarily untrue in EVERY case...)

By painting this "green" Image, they look like angels.

I also don't know why Honda's so serious with this CR-Z thing. That car'd be just as efficient, I'll bet, without the burden of batteries.

 

[Paulie]

Fair enough. But...



...probably not. But then that's not exactly affordable either. The cheapest, slowest IS in the UK is £22k. The most expensive the last-gen Celica used to be £23k. The most expensive MR2 with every toy imaginable was £21k and they started at only £17k.

These sorts of cars are more affordable and arguably more fun, yet Toyota just doesn't produce anything like them at the moment.



Woah there. The M3 is hardly affordable to the average bloke! I'm not talking sports cars like Porsches, I'm talking sports cars like MR-2s and MX-5s. Which are vastly more affordable than a super-saloon.

And I reiterate - I very much doubt many people buy M3s, IS-Fs and the like to have fun in the corners and spend their day sideways. They buy them because their buttocks, wallets and egos are large and they want the best badge and want everyone to know they're driving something fast, even if their driving talent would run out long before second gear.

Valid point in the cheap sports cars, although I must add I live in the land where the Commodore and Falcon are both available to me, for the price of an MX-5 or Civic Type R I can just about get a V8 Commodore or Falcon, or XR6 Turbo Falcon, let alone the coming-in-2-months 225kw SV6 Commodore which undercuts both of those in price and is still an absolute ball to drive (judging by current, slower models, which I have driven). The notion that sedans aren't fun in the corners has to stop, they're not as fast, but that doesn't stop them being fun. You can't go stereotyping the drivers/buyers either, it just doesn't hold water what so ever.

 

[homeforsummer]

I also don't know why Honda's so serious with this CR-Z thing. That car'd be just as efficient, I'll bet, without the burden of batteries.

I secretly think that companies like Honda and Toyota know that but they've become so entangled in being "companies that make Hybrids" that they'd look silly if they said "actually, we could have just made normal petrol cars that efficient all along".

Okay, the original Insight was ridiculously efficient (numerous reports of 90mpg+ on the internet even without using hardcore hypermiling techniques) but I suspect it wouldn't have been too bad even with something like Honda's 1.3 or 1.5 VTEC-E engines from the mid nineties. When it's that aerodynamic and light then any smallish engine is going to get good results and even have respectable performance.

Valid point in the cheap sports cars, although I must add I live in the land where the Commodore and Falcon are both available to me, for the price of an MX-5 or Civic Type R I can just about get a V8 Commodore or Falcon, or XR6 Turbo Falcon, let alone the coming-in-2-months 225kw SV6 Commodore which undercuts both of those in price and is still an absolute ball to drive

Correct me if I'm wrong but Commodores and Falcons are a damn sight cheaper than a Lexus, no?

The notion that sedans aren't fun in the corners has to stop, they're not as fast, but that doesn't stop them being fun.

If you can find where I said that sedans aren't fun then please continue. There are plenty of sedans which are fun, and plenty which I'd very much like to own. In the UK at least though, 99% of the time it doesn't make a blind bit of difference that they're RWD or go sideways easily because you just can't do that. We get the VXR8 here and I strongly suspect that day to day it feels like what it is - a plush saloon with a slightly drab interior. It has the potential to be brilliant fun but the way a car makes you feel very important day to day when you're stuck in traffic commuting or popping to the supermarket. In this sort of driving, an M5 feels like a 520i, an IS-F feels like an IS220 diesel and a VXR8 feels essentially like a Vauxhall Omega.

These are fun cars, of course, but day to day you'd never know it. Maybe in Australia you can go sideways everywhere at 6000rpm and in clouds of smoke where a big RWD V8 saloon excels, but I suspect that at least some of the time you have to drive the daily grind too. At which point the big lazy saloon may as well have a sewing machine under the bonnet. Indeed, in traffic it will become a black hole for petrol too.

You can't go stereotyping the drivers/buyers either, it just doesn't hold water what so ever.

I can, and I will. It's completely harmless and generally stereotypes exist for a reason. I've never seen a large, powerful saloon being driven in the manner by which it was intended - the most I get around my area is a fat, letcherous businessman or a greasy footballer eyeing up the 18-year olds on nights out from the window of their M3...

If you're feeling threatened by my stereotyping then you've nothing to worry about. You know full well that I actually quite like your car, so don't feel like I'm taking a dig at the cars you hold dear.

 

[Paulie]

Points all taken, and acknowledged/agreed to. Except the stereotyping thing, still not very nice. In your part of the globe, maybe, but your part of the globe is a small part of the globe as is mine.

 

[homeforsummer]

Points all taken, and acknowledged/agreed to. Except the stereotyping thing, still not very nice. In your part of the globe, maybe, but your part of the globe is a small part of the globe as is mine.

I think your part of the globe is considerably less small than my part!...

 

[Paulie]

I think your part of the globe is considerably less small than my part!...

Sshhhh, don't spoil it for me. I'm fairly confident that the Middle East does a lot of what we do in sedans too. How big are they? America in their Chargers, G8s (albeit mostly on the drag strip, but still) and...........no, not 300Cs, they're just plain pimp mobiles.

 

[homeforsummer]

Sshhhh, don't spoil it for me. I'm fairly confident that the Middle East does a lot of what we do in sedans too. How big are they? America in their Chargers, G8s (albeit mostly on the drag strip, but still) and...........no, not 300Cs, they're just plain pimp mobiles.

You can get anything and everything in sedan format from about Eastern Europe through to the Far East. Only about 5% of them are worth buying. Or indeed looking at.

Nobody really bothers with sedans in most of Europe now any more, apart from the obvious VAG/BMW/Mercedes (and even they're going for the "fastback" thing now...). Even mainstream companies used to make an effort with saloons before but the public are more interested in mini people-carriers and crossovers...

 

[Sniffs]

Home: in the US, the sporty in the middles your looking for are assigned to Scion. besides, most manufacturers have gone the american angle, and discarded everything BUT the "big wallowy saloons"...except in the US, where they're all cop cars

blame the US sales market for the lack of sports coupes other than dedicated GT's. too many 16 year olds crashing anything with less than 4 doors. at least you've still got hatches. those are as verbotten in the states as estates, MPVs, SUV's, and anything small from Europe.

 

[YSSMAN]

Almost as much as the Prius Sport package? (I think they had one...)

They did, my neighbor has one. It essentially amounts to a slight body kit and a set of "totally awesome" alloy wheels.



As a Celica owner, I'm really torn between the Toyobaru and the Prius Coupe. On the one hand, the Toyobaru is a return to the Celica's roots as a proper RWD coupe. But, I'm just not a fan of the boxer engines that will likely end up in the car. The main thing for me will be whether or not the cars are cheap, if I were ever to buy. Thus far, I'm not getting my hopes up. As for the Prius Coupe, its closer to what I already have, albeit with an even more "green" perspective on how to get things done. To put my feelings in the most gentle way, as long as it handles, I'm happy... But do I have to have a hybrid engine? I mean... I'll take another sport FWD coupe with 140 BHP. I've already got that.

 

[LittleBahamut]

If Toyota can make a hybrid sports car that is exciting to drive, I am all for it! As of right now, it seems that the average go fast car enthusiast are showing alot of hatred toward hybrid technology. I can imagine a hybrid supra or a camaro slowing down at a stoplight with its aftermarket exhuast system. The sound from the exhaust will rumble for some time, then completely shuts up. When you start moving, then suddenly the sounds starts off again. I hope aftermarket tuning companies will create a box to allow the hybrid to let the gasoline engine to stay on.

Or maybe the future of aftermarket tuning will die when the day every car out of the dealership is a hybrid.

 

[mustangGT90210]

Hybrid's have bigger carbon footprints than normal gasoline cars. They aren't the way to go.

 

[Eric.]

I also don't know why Honda's so serious with this CR-Z thing. That car'd be just as efficient, I'll bet, without the burden of batteries.

Yep, they just need it to be light and slippery, as evidenced by a K20 swapped first gen Insight. 50mpg, 200+hp, very quick.

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/garage/83664-honda-k-sight-honda-insight-k20.html

 

[homeforsummer]

Home: in the US, the sporty in the middles your looking for are assigned to Scion. besides, most manufacturers have gone the american angle, and discarded everything BUT the "big wallowy saloons"...except in the US, where they're all cop cars :

I actually completely forgot about Scion. When I went to the States I saw loads of TCs and quite liked the look of them. And we've recently got the xD in the UK as the Toyota "Urban Cruiser" (yeah... I think the States gets the better deal with naming that one). Okay, so maybe if Toyota want to recreate the Celica or MR2 then Scion is now the brand with which to do so. At least in the States.

I did forget to mention that I don't actually mind Toyota making a hybrid coupe as long as they make the damn thing fun. I'm not a fan of hybrids (the original Insight is still the only one that appeals to me in the slightest) but thats because they don't really give off an image of fun (unlike the original Insight).

Yep, they just need it to be light and slippery, as evidenced by a K20 swapped first gen Insight. 50mpg, 200+hp, very quick.

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/garage/83664-honda-k-sight-honda-insight-k20.html

I virtually always use this car as an example of aerodynamics and low weight being the main keys to economy rather than a clever engine - I'm surprised I didn't bring it up this time, so thanks for doing so! 50mpg from a very much performance-orientated engine is the perfect example of how well the aerodynamics and clever aluminium construction work. And of course, the fact that virtually all Honda engines are pretty efficient out of the box does help.

 

[Eric.]

I virtually always use this car as an example of aerodynamics and low weight being the main keys to economy rather than a clever engine - I'm surprised I didn't bring it up this time, so thanks for doing so! 50mpg from a very much performance-orientated engine is the perfect example of how well the aerodynamics and clever aluminium construction work. And of course, the fact that virtually all Honda engines are pretty efficient out of the box does help.

Even I'm able to get 31mpg out of that motor on a weekly basis when driven in a mostly responsible manner. And that's in a 2950lb sedan. Aerodynamics is probably the most important part since most people will be concerned with highway mileage. Once you've accelerated up to speed, weight plays a negligible role. The basic shape of the Insight, along with the flat bottom and having the rear wheels covered helps a ton.

 

[YSSMAN]

I actually completely forgot about Scion... Okay, so maybe if Toyota want to recreate the Celica or MR2 then Scion is now the brand with which to do so. At least in the States.

The problem with Scion as a brand is that they don't exactly have the right image in my mind to become a legitimate sporting arm for Toyota. On the one hand, yes, they have the "sporty" cars (otherwise leftovers) from the Toyota lineup. But, they're having a problem with selling them to the young people they market them to. Adding the iQ to the lineup will make things interesting, but they've got a long way to come with the tC to make it a proper Celica replacement. I mean, my one is BIG compared to those before and after it, but the tC is HUGE compared to my car.

I did forget to mention that I don't actually mind Toyota making a hybrid coupe as long as they make the damn thing fun. I'm not a fan of hybrids (the original Insight is still the only one that appeals to me in the slightest) but thats because they don't really give off an image of fun (unlike the original Insight).

I think you hit the nail on the head there. As long as it is fun to drive, and cheap to buy, by days end, I'm not all that concerned about what kind of engine is driving the front (or rear) wheels. Look at any comparison between the new Insight and the new Prius and you essentially get the same basic conclusion. The Insight isn't perfect, but at least it drives like a halfway decent car. The new Prius, sure, is more like a car... But its still a Prius. Isolated, green, and not nearly as fun as your run-of-the-mill Corolla. My guess would be that a slight tightening of the suspension, replacement of the low-resistance tires, and the near-constant activation of the "sport" mode on the Prius would make it an excellent vehicle. But no, we can't have that. Not until it has only two doors.


RE: Old School Slippery, Efficient Cars

My 2800lb Celica, with its then-monstrous 2.2L engine wasn't supposed to average more than 22 MPG, according to the EPA. Its even worse when you adjust for their mileage corrections from 2008. But, I manage to do 28-30 MPG weekly. Wazzupwitdat? Even more interesting, apparently I'm only adding 180 g/km of CO2 with my car. I think. Weird... I've never looked at that before.

 

[Philly]

I think you hit the nail on the head there. As long as it is fun to drive, and cheap to buy, by days end, I'm not all that concerned about what kind of engine is driving the front (or rear) wheels. Look at any comparison between the new Insight and the new Prius and you essentially get the same basic conclusion. The Insight isn't perfect, but at least it drives like a halfway decent car. The new Prius, sure, is more like a car... But its still a Prius. Isolated, green, and not nearly as fun as your run-of-the-mill Corolla. My guess would be that a slight tightening of the suspension, replacement of the low-resistance tires, and the near-constant activation of the "sport" mode on the Prius would make it an excellent vehicle. But no, we can't have that. Not until it has only two doors.

Actually, I've been hearing some pretty good things about the new Prius. Everybody's been saying how well it drives. And I almost wouldn't be surprised to see it possibly be more involving than the Insight. But I have not seen the cars compared. It would be an interesting comparison. And everything about the Prius seems to trump the Honda as well.

My 2800lb Celica, with its then-monstrous 2.2L engine wasn't supposed to average more than 22 MPG, according to the EPA. Its even worse when you adjust for their mileage corrections from 2008. But, I manage to do 28-30 MPG weekly. Wazzupwitdat? Even more interesting, apparently I'm only adding 180 g/km of CO2 with my car. I think. Weird... I've never looked at that before.

On a similar token, the GTI which is supposed to get Pretty good mileage has been returning between 20 to 22 mpg lately. And I think that's only partly due to my slightly faster than normal takeoff.

 

[niky]

My 2800lb Celica, with its then-monstrous 2.2L engine wasn't supposed to average more than 22 MPG, according to the EPA. Its even worse when you adjust for their mileage corrections from 2008. But, I manage to do 28-30 MPG weekly. Wazzupwitdat? Even more interesting, apparently I'm only adding 180 g/km of CO2 with my car. I think. Weird... I've never looked at that before.

EPA iz stoopid. Peepul complain that EPA mileage 2 hi, so dey change testn 2 reflx reelwurld condishuns.

Guess what? Self-fulfilled prophecy. If you drive a car with short gearing like an idiot, you get poor mileage. Drive it with whatever speed feels right for the gearing (keeping your rpms low) and you'll get great economy. People keep pointing out the Civic 1.8 gets better EPA numbers than the Fit.

That's because the Civic has longer gearing. What you don't get from the EPA numbers is that the Fit will be able to achieve that 38 mpg for more of the time than the Civic... and if you drive at reasonable speeds (reasonable given the Fit's gearing being 50-55), you can get well over 40 mpg. I've done 45+ in one via hypermiling... and I've seen 36-40 with regular conservative driving.

-

Until Toyota brings the Celica back or fixes the steering and suspension of the current Corolla (excellent chassis... except after they mated it to a water-bed suspension and the worst electric steering rack in the universe), they aren't going to capture the hearts and minds of young buyers, anywhere. The iQ is a good start, but they need to inject a little "zoom zoom" into their products to fire up their customers' passion for buying more Toyota products.

And the funny thing is... Mazda's "zoom zoom" has nothing to do with their woeful engine technology or anything else remotely breakable... it's all a matter of proper suspension tuning and steering calibration that make the Mazda experience... as well as clever-looking designs.

 

[Paulie]

You can get anything and everything in sedan format from about Eastern Europe through to the Far East. Only about 5% of them are worth buying. Or indeed looking at.

Nobody really bothers with sedans in most of Europe now any more, apart from the obvious VAG/BMW/Mercedes (and even they're going for the "fastback" thing now...). Even mainstream companies used to make an effort with saloons before but the public are more interested in mini people-carriers and crossovers...

Really? Seems to me like more people/manufacturers than ever are going sports sedans, as evidenced by the sheer number of 500+hp super sedans out there and their lower spec counterparts.

 

[homeforsummer]

Really? Seems to me like more people/manufacturers than ever are going sports sedans, as evidenced by the sheer number of 500+hp super sedans out there and their lower spec counterparts.

Nah, I mean smaller, lower-tech sedans. M5s and similar... well, large, powerful sedans in general, are as popular as they've ever been. Actually, that's not strictly true, as they have a lower market share than they used to thanks to the increase in demand for SUVs. But in general the big saloons from BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc are still popular.

What aren't popular any more are smaller saloons. There used to be Ford Orions everywhere (saloon version of the Ford Escort). Ditto Renault Chamades (saloon version of Megane predecessor the 19). Honda used to sell a Civic saloon in the UK (now only the US and the Far East get them). You even see more Boras than you do new Jettas, and the older saloon derivatives of the Golf (old Jetta and Vento) used to be popular too. Renault and Ford did persist with saloon versions of the Megane and Focus but honestly, you never see them.

In addition, you could always get a sports model of these. The Orion had the Ghia "i" and the Si, the Chamade had the 16v, Honda had a VTi Civic saloon, the Vento came with the VR6 engine... but slowly those were phased out as people became less and less interested in small, affordable and sporty family saloons.

It's a pity, because they were the saloon equivalent of hot hatches - practical, affordable, quick and with a little more style than the average model.

 

[Paulie]

Honda still make a Type R Civic sedan for Japan only, which is faster than the hatchback we get, but they don't get the hatch IIRC. We see lots of Focus sedans and the new Holden Cruze around here, as well as Corolla sedans, Mazda 3 sedans etc etc. I assume those are the kind of cars you mean, even though most of them don't have sports models like you say.

PS- A base model up to SV6 Commodore is still affordable, as is the Falcons, but I guess you just don't get these, which makes us rather lucky. We still get affordable high performance sedans when the rest of the world doesnt.

Edit: Don't forget the Evo and WRX (which both come in sedan form of course). While I'm here too, can I just say that of all the small cars I just mentioned here I can't fit in the back seat of any (the Holden and Falcon of course are roomier than most other large sedans, which is HEAPS)? What a sedan that is.....

 

[Sniffs]

Home:well, I can see what you mean about the small saloon. i know why those kinds of things dissapeared in the states, but I'da figured at least a couple woulda hung around, there. the closest I ever got to a "hot-notch" was my first car, what you'd call family size, I think. the estate (i saw a beauty of one, in "granny" shape, out killing time checking prices once) never weighed more than 3000 lbs/1300 kilos. stuffing a 3.8 into a 2900 lb saloon garnered a WOOHOO when you took off. it even got decent milage, considering the miles and time on it.

lately, the commercials popping up for the government's incentive have begun, and they're getting on my nerves. right now, no-one that I know can afford to go out and buy one of the 30-40k dollar new cars just to get the 4500 buck cash for clunkers money. if they do, they're probably paying bills with it, just like they did with dubyuh's Stimulus money.

Niky: you forgot they retune everything for the rest of asia? you're probably getting the extra cheap suspensions

 

[homeforsummer]

Honda still make a Type R Civic sedan for Japan only, which is faster than the hatchback we get, but they don't get the hatch IIRC. We see lots of Focus sedans and the new Holden Cruze around here, as well as Corolla sedans, Mazda 3 sedans etc etc. I assume those are the kind of cars you mean, even though most of them don't have sports models like you say.

Exactly right. We do actually get the 3 saloon (well, we did - not sure if they're going to sell the saloon version of the latest 3). We don't get a Corolla full stop, we get the Auris which is 5dr hatch only. We get the Focus but it's incredibly dull and nobody buys them (perhaps if they made an ST version that might be a different story...). And yeah, the JDM Type R Civic is a brilliant car which I'm sure would sell if they introduced it to the UK, but then the hatch version would probably stop selling!

 

[niky]

Niky: you forgot they retune everything for the rest of asia? you're probably getting the extra cheap suspensions

Depends on the car. Actually, cars used to be "softened" for the American market. The Mazda6 still is, I don't know if anything else applies.

What tuning we get depends on where the cars are manufactured. The global Corolla and US Corolla are, apparently, from reviews, tuned exactly the same. Terribly bad electric steering and a suspension that's tuned entirely for ride comfort and nothing else...

Our Civics are apparently just as stiff, or stiffer, the Mazda3 is around the same, the Sentra was the same until 98, from 98-2000, was much, much softer, since we got a Taiwanese model... everything else is sort of the same.

 

[Tornado]

I'm just saying there's nothing boring about the IS350.👍

Oh really?
That is all.

And I almost wouldn't be surprised to see it possibly be more involving than the Insight.

Of course, the new Insight is a rather pointless (supposed) piece of crap, so that doesn't really mean much.

 

[homeforsummer]

Of course, the new Insight is a rather pointless (supposed) piece of crap, so that doesn't really mean much.

That depends where you read. Most of the magazines in the UK that I read have Insights as long-termers at the moment and all of them are getting on just fine with them. The only problems I recall reading about were that either the speedo or rev-counter is obscured depending on where you adjust the wheel, it has average rear headroom and a poor ride. Auto Express are averaging 40-ish mpg (imperial gallons) around London in one so even the economy doesn't sound too bad.

Clarkson gave it a panning but then I gave up listening to him about actual cars years ago, and I understand some of the American magazines haven't been too impressed either, but overall the car seems "average" at worst to "pretty good" at best. It's certainly supposed to be a heap more fun than a Prius and a heap cheaper too.

 

[niky]

I think the big problem with the Insight is the price.

While the Prius is engineered from the ground-up as its own platform, and is, at least, still slightly bigger than the Corolla, the Insight is engineered from the Fit platform... and it shows...

The compromises in Insight design sound much like some of the early issues with the longer wheelbase Fit sedans of the previous generation... too stiff... too uncomfortable... too tinny. Things that should be easy to remedy, but which were ironed out of the current Fit, already (except for the seats... they're either barely bearable or nicely supportive... depending on your body type).

And the price... the price is the real killer. We were promised a hybrid at subcompact-compact prices... not just a few pennies below the Prius. If the Insight had delivered at its original price, criticism would have been less... much less.

 

[Radracing]

Maybe if they go the route of the Lexus LS Hybrid. All wheel drive with the electric motor kicking in to get 0 to 60 times below 5 second range in sport mode and then back to economy with a flick of a switch. I think that would raise some eyebrows and shut the nay sayer's up.

 

[Tornado]

It's certainly supposed to be a heap more fun than a Prius and a heap cheaper too.

$1000 less, considerably less efficient and patently obvious where Honda cut the corners to meet the cost target. I see absolutely no reason for the car to exist when I could just get a Fit and get similar mileage (or at least similar enough considering the $6,000 or so price difference) or spend essentially 2 more months in car payments and get the better-in-every-way Prius.

 

[BETOGTR]

Just reading prius makes me think this will be awful anyway that drawing looks good but that isn´t the front of a prius , its kind of a lexus is-f moreless , they should make a new supra or something like that if they want to make an exciting car again