Toyota FT-HS Concept: The Next Supra (Again)?

[YSSMAN]

Toyota at the Detroit auto show will unveil the FT-HS Hybrid Sports Concept — a two-door sports coupe that could provide clues to the next Supra. Toyota says the 400 horsepower hybrid would do zero to 60 mph in around four seconds, and cost somewhere between $30,000 and $40,000.

Power comes from a 3.5 liter V6 coupled with the electric motor used in the GS 450h. The car seats four and has a 50:50 weight balance.

...Well, lets see how things work out. This is what, Supra number 792 in the past six months? I wouldn't be surprised to see Toyota seriously consider a car such as this, but as a Hybrid, I won't buy it. It just isn't worth all the effort. Sell the car with a high-power I4 or V6, no over-controlling computers, and a true manual transmission, and they may have a real threat towards the Nissan 350Z or Mazda RX-8.

That said, if Toyota still "has a pair," they could stick the Tundra V8 under the hood and try to knock-gloves with the Corvette... But that seems most unlikely in Toyota's current state of mind.

 

[Poverty]

that car doesnt look too nice and I dont like hybrids. However a high performance but cheap 4 seater coupe interests me. I reall really loved the supra, and that in turn made me love toyota, but all that changed a long time ago, and I dont think this car will recapture my heart.

 

[Dave A]

I think there is potential in hybrid power, I don't think it's a petrol replacment though, just an alternative. However, that is a very ugly concept. It's badly proportioned imo.

 

[harrytuttle]

****
This
|
Horribly
Stupid



It's so ugly, Toyota should actually be ashamed of themselves. And making it a hybrid doesn't do it any favors, either. With all the investment Toyota's put into hybrid technology, it's no wonder they want it to be taken seriously by putting it into a sports car. The only hope is to be shown up by a competitor to can create a far superior sports car (not too hard, considering modern Toyota) that is just as eco-friendly.


Just in case it wasn't clear: I hate hybrids.

 

[YSSMAN]

^ Just remember, they are Toyota, they can do absolutely no wrong. Everything they touch turns to gold, just look at Scion! Maybe they could strap the LS460L brakes on the car too, then it could be a real performer! Car of the Year material for sure!

 

[Leonidae]

Is it just me or does the car look Banglefied Alfa Romeo, especially from the rear?

this car needs some proper powerplant, not some tree-hugging, butterfy-kissing hybrid. it's a sportscar, for pete's sake! Sportscar means big displacement, turbo spinning, flame-spitting and wheel smoking power, not an LCD screen in the dash that tells you how many butterflies you have resued today.. sheesh..

 

[a6m5]

I like it. And the back looks like a face of Stormtrooper's with red eyes......

I have hard time buying their projected MSRP though, no pun intended.

 

[SagarisGTB]

I do like the back. Weird, yeah, but it works. The headlamps are great too, though everything underneath them is wrong. The side profile is a mess. The inside is just horrible. There are some nice things here, but the design needs work. Atleast Toyota is going with something new and forward and not taking boring designs out of the past *cough* Americans *cough*

It was only a matter of time before toyota came out with a hybrid sportscar, but I dont think it will work.

That said, if Toyota still "has a pair," they could stick the Tundra V8 under the hood and try to knock-gloves with the Corvette... But that seems most unlikely in Toyota's current state of mind.

Toyota's state of mind is appealing to the American public and becoming somewhat american in the process (Nascar).

Though I dont see how a pickup V8 would be a good fit in a sports car. Its just an american thing. A high reving V6 or a turbo charged engine would do much better in a 30-40k sports car.

 

[YSSMAN]

Since when is Toyota appealing to America? Last time I checked, the hostility has been growing steadily over the years, despite the fact that they are handed awards for less-than-spectacular automobiles. Being a part of NASCAR has little to nothing to do with them being "accepted" in America. With the amount of fuss they have caused in the Craftsman Series, and predictably so in the NEXTEL Series, I find it completely unlikely for Toyota to gain any kind of reputation beyond what they can buy later in the year.

...Without a solid racing program, really any signs of "talented" drivers, nor any kind of positive "buzz" about the teams, it pretty much is a matter of "Who gives a rat's end?"

---

As for the Tundra's V8 as a powerplant, I'd say that is completely reasonable in a "sportscar" to replace the Supra. Given that the new iForce 5.7L V8 is expected to put down somewhere around 380 BHP, that could easily push the "Supra" into Corvette territory should Toyota wish to do so, added to that, could easily rival that of the next GT-R should Toyota "grow a pair."

What it comes down to is me wanting Toyota to do it only to get their asses blown out of the water. With the company completely losing its mind over the past few years, I seriously doubt with any level of confidence that they could take on the likes of the Corvette, Sagaris, GT-R, etc. Not on pricing, not on performance, and certainly not on reputation...

And to be honest, this isn't even an anti-Toyota moment. Simply put, Toyota doesn't have it as a company to actually push boundaries forward and actually build a sports model that matters. The Corvette wins because it is cheap, it performs, and because it has a solid reputation as a world-class sportscar. The Sagaris wins for many of the same reasons, added to that, the attitude of a bi-polar female teenager that can both be your friend and tear your head off at the same time.

This "Supra" has none of that. A Hybrid V6 powerplant presumably matched to the same CVT "automatic" in the GS that neither adds to the driveability nor the "sportiness" of this "sports" model. Fuel effiency and the "cool factor" with greenies is nothing to be proud of. Sports cars are about destroying the Earth and having a good time while doing so. Simply put, Toyota is going about it all wrong... Added to that, I gave them a simple solution to a rather simple problem. Adding V8 power could make it a contender, but if they are wishing to sell it to us as a Hybrid for $40-50K, I'll be happy spending my money on the faster and possibly even more fuel-efficient Corvette Z51...

 

[SagarisGTB]

A pickup V8 is built for towing, low down grunt. I have had the unfornate luck to have spent many hours behind the wheel of a 2003 GMC Yukon. It is probably the last kind of engine you would want in a sports car.

 

[Azuremen]

YSSMAN, while I agree with you in some regards, I have to explain something about electric motors real quick.

100% of the maximum torque is there at basically 0 RPM. Its very logical to pair the two together for performance. Not to mention they generate alot of torque too. I want to see a high performance car use hybrid technology because its logical for acceleration. High RPM NA engine, combined with an electric motor = power and torque anywhere in the rev range, and lots of it.

 

[Poverty]

YSSMAN, while I agree with you in some regards, I have to explain something about electric motors real quick.

100% of the maximum torque is there at basically 0 RPM. Its very logical to pair the two together for performance. Not to mention they generate alot of torque too. I want to see a high performance car use hybrid technology because its logical for acceleration. High RPM NA engine, combined with an electric motor = power and torque anywhere in the rev range, and lots of it.

Or they could just make a decent engine in the first place which gives them 90+ % maximum torque from 1750 RPM from the word go like other manufacturers have done.

Also do not forget that most cars idle at around and often over 1000rpm so the 90% of max torque would be available nearly straight away as you pull off, in manual cars atleast.

 

[YSSMAN]

A pickup V8 is built for towing, low down grunt. I have had the unfornate luck to have spent many hours behind the wheel of a 2003 GMC Yukon. It is probably the last kind of engine you would want in a sports car.

I do have to question whether or not you are aware of what you are complaining about. Simply because an engine is utilized in a truck does not immediately disqualify it from being a good engine...

- The Ford GT and GT500 both use the 5.4L S/C V8 from the SVT Lightning (F150)
- The Chevrolet Corvette LS2 and LS7 share a similar design to the L76 used in the Suburban and Avalanche, same with the L92 in the Escalade and Yukon. And don't forget about the Trailblazer SS that uses the LS2, along with the SSR...
- The Jaguar XK uses the same design as a Land Rover, as does Aston Martin
- The Charger R/T and 300C (along with SRT variants) all use the same design of HEMI V8 from the Dodge Ram 1500.

So yes, I wouldn't run around saying that a truck engine isn't good enough for a sports car. If it has the power, it has the power, it doesn't matter what it was originally meant to go into. Nissan almost used their 5.6L Titan V8 in the GT-R (or that is what reports suggest), wouldn't that have been Bat-Tastic? The same L76 V8 we see here is used in the Commodore and Statesman down in Australia, and presumably will be used in our Impalas and G8s in the near future. Crazy, huh?

The only difference between these engines is that in a truck, they are likely to sacrifice a few BHP for a better torque curve, but most of that is due to the use of a slightly different ECU program, a different intake and exhaust, and normally a heaver-duty transmission... All of which is easily altered for use in a civilian sports car...

 

[Race Idiot]

Though I dont see how a pickup V8 would be a good fit in a sports car. Its just an american thing. A high reving V6 or a turbo charged engine would do much better in a 30-40k sports car.

Didn't the jgtc supras use the v8 from the tacoma for a little while? Even if it was just the shortblock with everything else modified I bet it could be used in a roadcar as well. It would probably just end up being heavy as hell like most ohc v8 engines, but then the 2jz was a big fat pig as well.

Also the FT-HS looks like ass.

 

[GT4_Rule]

Sheesh, another "Supra". When will it end, and when will Toyota's design team give themselves a good smack in their head?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I think it looks pretty cool, just needs some machine guns and rocket launchers.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Toyota needs to stop teasing us with this "next possible Supra" crap. Toyota, either declare that you will make another one, or just tell us that you will not make another one, and have done with it. Preferably the former.

 

[V1P3R]

With the exception of 3? models from them I think that company has gone downhill in terms of styling and so I guess this kind of concept is expected.

 

[V1P3R]

damn it... delete please.

 

[a6m5]

Sheesh, another "Supra". When will it end, and when will Toyota's design team give themselves a good smack in their head?

Toyota needs to stop teasing us with this "next possible Supra" crap. Toyota, either declare that you will make another one, or just tell us that you will not make another one, and have done with it. Preferably the former.

You guys should read the first post.:

Toyota at the Detroit auto show will unveil the FT-HS Hybrid Sports Concept — a two-door sports coupe that could provide clues to the next Supra

It's the thread starter and the Leftlane News that mentioned Supra. Toyota hinted nothing.

 

[harrytuttle]

Though I dont see how a pickup V8 would be a good fit in a sports car. Its just an american thing. A high reving V6 or a turbo charged engine would do much better in a 30-40k sports car.

Eh?

Dodge Viper (V10, but still a truck engine)
Ford Shelby Cobra GT500 2007


That's just off the top of my head, but I think you get the point.


Edit: Er, so did YSSMAN, apparently.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well the Viper V10 was originally a truck engine in the origional car. All they did was take the V10 from the Ram, cast it all in aluminum, up the compression, and call it a day...

(I love American engineering!!!)

 

[Azuremen]

Well the Viper V10 was originally a truck engine in the origional car. All they did was take the V10 from the Ram, cast it all in aluminum, up the compression, and call it a day...

(I love American engineering!!!)

Or lack there off? All they do is use the same basic designs from forever ago. Pushrods are just plain out dated at this point. The only real benefit a slightly lower weight on the engine. And thats offset by the gains in the torque, power, and fuel economy.

And Poverty, you can make an engine with 90% of torque available at 1700 RPM, but its generally not gonna rev too high and still have torque. High revving engines tend to suffer from low end torque problems, as they need the torque to further up in the power band to actually produce power.

 

[YSSMAN]

Or lack there off? All they do is use the same basic designs from forever ago. Pushrods are just plain out dated at this point. The only real benefit a slightly lower weight on the engine. And thats offset by the gains in the torque, power, and fuel economy.

Why fix a design that already works? Pushrods have proven themselves to be a cheaper, more reliable alternative to OHC and DOHC setups over the past few years, particularly when we begin to compare V8 designs. Weight and overall size certainly do help the case for pushrods, as does the great low-end power that the engines tend to cater to.

What it comes down to is that Americans can think both inside and outside the box, and thinking inside of it is our specialty. There isn't anything wrong with using the same design over, and over, and over again. It makes the product better, less likely to break, and cheaper to produce and to sell to the consumer. If GM came out with a new V8 every five years to power the trucks and the Corvette, costs would go up substantially. Why fix something that is already so good?

...Sure, we may be "backwards," but it is all part of the reason why so many companies have had such a hard time out-building our high-power V8 and V10 engines on a budget...

 

[JCE]

This thing is rubbish. Surely Toyota can do better than this?

 

[Azuremen]

Why fix a design that already works? Pushrods have proven themselves to be a cheaper, more reliable alternative to OHC and DOHC setups over the past few years, particularly when we begin to compare V8 designs. Weight and overall size certainly do help the case for pushrods, as does the great low-end power that the engines tend to cater to.

What it comes down to is that Americans can think both inside and outside the box, and thinking inside of it is our specialty. There isn't anything wrong with using the same design over, and over, and over again. It makes the product better, less likely to break, and cheaper to produce and to sell to the consumer. If GM came out with a new V8 every five years to power the trucks and the Corvette, costs would go up substantially. Why fix something that is already so good?

...Sure, we may be "backwards," but it is all part of the reason why so many companies have had such a hard time out-building our high-power V8 and V10 engines on a budget...

The only reason these engines produce the low end torque you were talking about is through their displacement only. I believe the efficiency of pushrods vs DOHC has been discussed at length on these forums already. If I recall correctly, the results came down to DOHC being superior to pushrods. You can get more power from a DOHC engine per liter, and you can get a better and more efficient burn and such.

Power from the V8s of America is purely a function of their displacement. Its not engining, its just making things bigger to get more out of it.

Also, can you please bring forth this evidence of push rods being more reliable as of late than DOHC engines? I am quite curious as to where you are getting this info.

 

[YSSMAN]

Unfortunately, I do not know of any solid data that actually compares the two directly. What it will presumably come down to is the solid-runners from Toyota and Honda with small engines versus GM's strong record with bigger V6 and V8 designs.

Ford and Ferrari are both known for the failures of their engines on a pretty consistent basis, Nissan has had some issues in the past with some of their V8s as well.

However I do not believe that there was ever a solid decision made between pushrods and OHC designs, and generally speaking, this isn't the place for the argument. Both sides have their strong points, and both have their own little weaknesses.

...I'll stick with old-school, cheap, effective pushrods in my cars and trucks for as long as I have a choice (unfortunately with VW, I don't). I love my big American V8s with all my heart for their simplicity and their power. I don't have to known C+++ in order to use one, or have an extensive knowledge of Italian or German... I just need a few tools, and the knowledge that has been passed down three generations in my family.

 

[GT4_Rule]

You guys should read the first post.:

It's the thread starter and the Leftlane News that mentioned Supra. Toyota hinted nothing.

I know. What I'm trying to say is that every time Toyota unveils some concept car with sports car styling cues, they mention Supra. And every time Toyota unveils a concept car, it gets uglier.

 

[a6m5]

I know. What I'm trying to say is that every time Toyota unveils some concept car with sports car styling cues, they mention Supra. And every time Toyota unveils a concept car, it gets uglier.

I don't know about uglier, but I'd give you that they could do a whole lot better.

On the subject of "Supra": Key is the "they". "They" are not Toyota, obviously. And it's not like Toyota is calling the concept "Supra" or advertising it as one.