Toyota Supra 2008

[GT4_Rule]

If what you said was true, YSSMAN, then Toyota just missed a great opportunity to make their brand "sportier" and have a Nissan GT-R fighter in their lineup.

 

[YSSMAN]

Yes, but can you actually see a "next-gen" Supra sitting between the Camry and the Corola at your local Toyota dealer? Face it, Toyota has become far too boring and too focused on beating GM to build cars like that. They gave up with the Celica, and thus the only "exciting" car in the Toyota lineup right now is the Corola XRS, and it certainly won't be compared to the GTI or Si in most circumstances.

...Toyota is missing a boat, I would agree to that, but it would be a very small one. Given their performance of strapping every computer this side of HAL inside of their "sports" models, the car wouldn't be any fun, and it would only sell to die-hard Toyota fans. Quite frankly, that isn't a recipe for success, and thus Toyota should stay away.

 

[87chevy]

I love it!

wonder what the real ones would look like, hopefully better than how the next Skyline is going to look

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

YSSMAN, why would that be weird?


Look at Nissan, they sell the 350Z at the moment, that's all, the rest is boring as hell, Sentra? n-Not a chance! Skyline, isn't in produce right now so actually it's crap you're saying

 

[YSSMAN]

Yes, but when you look at the Nissan lineup as a whole they are far more exciting than their Toyota compeditors. Granted a car like the Sentra is a generation behind that of the Corola, bet get into models like the Versa, Altima, Maxima, Murano and even the big-trucks, and you have far more exciting vehicles.

Atleast they (Nissan) still offer manual transmissions in a good number of their cars, as that is one HUGE step back Toyota has made here in North America over the past few years.

 

[GT Pro]

Yes, but can you actually see a "next-gen" Supra sitting between the Camry and the Corola at your local Toyota dealer? Face it, Toyota has become far too boring and too focused on beating GM to build cars like that.

Yes, it's unfortunate that Toyota is doing all it can so it can chase and drop GM far off the the top spot. Something big will come out of this, and I don't think it will be a good one. I can see Toyota going wrong about these projects and having it backfire on them. Although Lexus sells rather performance vehicles, Toyota will never succeed the way they are heading.

 

[YSSMAN]

^ And thats the thing. With the company so focused on knocking-off GM, quality has even dropped in some of their products. Toyota just isn't the company it used to be. Given that it really doesn't have anything to prove, they no longer feel the need to make products like the Celica-Supra, Cressida, the "Good" Corollas, and MR2.

 

[GT Pro]

^ And thats the thing. With the company so focused on knocking-off GM, quality has even dropped in some of their products. Toyota just isn't the company it used to be. Given that it really doesn't have anything to prove, they no longer feel the need to make products like the Celica-Supra, Cressida, the "Good" Corollas, and MR2.

My point exactly, with quality deteriorating on a handful of their products, this in the long-term could pose a great problem for Toyota.

 

[GT4_Rule]

YSSMAN has a point in saying that Toyta lineup is boring and Supra won't fit in - at the auto show I hardly was excited to get into any Toyota vehicle. Nissan has a bit more adrenaline with the Infiniti brand as well as the 350Z.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well even then I find the majority of Japanese automobiles these days to be quite boring. While they are undoubtedly in a slowdown period because they have nothing left to prove, they could stand to loose some ground to American and European automakers based on their current lineups and the move twards higher-performance models.

 

[Tornado]

I think ther is another dimension that we are also missing. While it is true that they no longer have anything to prove, the exchange rates aren't exactly the best thing for the Japanese to sell, say, another 300ZX TT anytime soon.
But I agree that Toyota is the most boring of the Japanese manafacturers, as Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi all have sporty versions of most of their cars. Think about all of the cars that they push as sporty cars and you'll understand. Hell, take one glance at a new Camry commercial and you'll know what I'm talking about (the Camry is only slightly more sporty than the Scion tC S/C, which in turn is only slightly more sporty than a Buick). I think just marketing the cars as sporty may do even more damage than the slight slump in recent Toyota quality, as it is damaging model image, while the quality thing can be attributed mostly to the new car curse.

 

[YSSMAN]

...If you were to tell me back in 1990 the average Toyota owner was 25 or 30, I'd belive you. If you were to tell me that the new average Toyota owner is 45+, I would belive you again.

I find it somewhat ironic that young folks love cars like the Celica and Supra, and yet Toyota is an old-folks company just like Buick...

 

[a6m5]

It could be because I'm old, but I don't think Toyota is boring. Example: I hated the new Camry at first,(Here's more proof I'm old) but after reading up on its' numbers and actually seeing them up close, I think it's the most exciting of the mainstream mid-size sedans. FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Prius, Scions and Yaris are interesting to me as well.

Also, I don't think there is anything weird about selling $50,000 Supra at the dealer that also sells Yarises and Corollas. Corvette, Ford GT, 350Z, off top of my head, those cars are sold along side the economy cars, and I guess I'm just used to it. It's always been that way as far as I can remember.

I think Toyota should do Supra. With their huge recalls making the news, I think they could use a little positive, exciting PR right about now. All those people who say "Toyota = Boring" simply haven't known Toyota long enough. Having dreamt about many of their sports cars while growing up, I would never be able to isolate Toyota from the image they have built as a builder of awesome sports cars. For me, it's that way with many other makes: Nissan= Z, Pontiac=Trans Am, Mazda=RX-7, etc., etc.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

I loved Toyota the most in the FJ40 time, those jeeps were the most strongest and beautiful cars ever IMO 👍

But I think Nissan is also making a huge step forward, just look at the new Navara and Pathfinder, those are like American trucks compared to Toyota

 

[IMADreamer]

I think Toyota should do Supra. With their huge recalls making the news, I think they could use a little positive, exciting PR right about now. All those people who say "Toyota = Boring" simply haven't known Toyota long enough. Having dreamt about many of their sports cars while growing up, I would never be able to isolate Toyota from the image they have built as a builder of awesome sports cars. For me, it's that way with many other makes: Nissan= Z, Pontiac=Trans Am, Mazda=RX-7, etc., etc.

I don't think it has much to do with not knowing toyota long enough or dreaming about toyota sports cars because a lot of people do know them well and have dreamnt about their sports cars. Growing up my mother had a 79 Toyota Corolla. I remeber two things really well about that car, it smelled good and when you turned the AC on, on the highway it felt like someone pulled the ebrake. lol. That car was a terriffic car though and went for well over 150k miles before the head gasket went on it. Now it sits in a barn on my families farm with a few other cars from my families past.

As for dreaming about Toyota sports cars, well I have done that too. When I was a young pup in the early 90s I saw some high performance driving team doing all sorts of crazy stuff at a local fair. I fell in love with the Supra then. It looked like nothing else in my little padunk town and sounded crazy. I wanted one for the longest time but by the time I was old enough to drive and could afford one the car got axed.

With all that said, I think toyota now makes horrificly boring cars in terms of looks and performance. It's too bad because cars like the Supra, Celica, and others are proof that they can do better and spark some excitement into their work.

 

[YSSMAN]

The biggest question would be how hard would it be for Toyota to turn its growing boring image around? GM and Ford both had that problem in the '90s, and they have done a good job of turning that around at a good number of their brands...

But even if Toyota was to push out a Supra, I wouldn't care. The brand as a whole needs a refresh, but the Supra wouldn't be it.

The Camry sucks eggs, as I literally have not seen or been in a car that boring since driving the Buick Century I drove for a week. The Yaris, although small and spunky, is too cheap feeling compared to the Fit and the Rabbit, and I'd be hard pressed to actually consider one against the competition. The Tacoma is a good truck, but the Frontier is better, and the same can be said for the Tundra in which the GMT900 will be better.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Step 1 - Bring back the old Yaris in a 900 kg 200 HP RS version

Step 2 - Bring out a 1100 kg Corolla 250 HP to compete with the Golf V GTi

Step 3 - Bring out the new Avensis with a 3.0L V6 producing 300 HP

Step 4 - New Celica - MR2 models

Step 5 - Supra


Easy as that

 

[Wolfe]

I completely agree with YSSMAN. It's hard to imagine that the Toyota of today -- that builds nothing but sensible family cars and neutered sports-luxury sedans -- is the same Toyota that brought us the Celica, Celica-Supra, Supra, GT-4 (and its WRC counterpart), rear-drive Corollas, MR-2, and IS200/300.

 

[a6m5]

You guy gotta remember, Toyota has a very successful business that they are running. And to say that they should change the lineups with more sports cars to please few fans makes very little sense, if you are a corporation who happens to be raking in the $$$ with the current business model.

Personally, I would find a new Supra very exciting. Celica's been dead to me for at least a decade. I'm all for affordable Toyota sports car, but they gotta do it right this time.

P.S. If Camry was a 80-year-old, Century is a corpse. Camry's boringness level will never be on par with a Century.

 

[harrytuttle]

I think ther is another dimension that we are also missing. While it is true that they no longer have anything to prove, the exchange rates aren't exactly the best thing for the Japanese to sell, say, another 300ZX TT anytime soon.

The 350Z and S2000 are doing rather well, price-wise. There's nothing saying Toyota has to release an exact Supra follow-up and risk ridiculous insurance rates, just something that would imply that they actually care about the sports car segment.

I think the MR2 was a great example of that: not terribly fast, but very fun and very reliable. Why not continue with that one model? Nissan has just one real performance model (Infiniti excluded), and has been improving it year after year (well, for the two revisions it's been through). Why not put the 190HP version of the <extinct> Celica engine in the MR2 and now you'd have two trim levels: MR2 and MR-S. Something like that.

Was the MR2 platform a money-loser for Toyota? If not, then it seems a ridiculous move on their part. It would be one thing that would really differentiate them from GM: Now you can have your sports car and still pull 35 MPG, because you don't need a stonking V8. It would be so appropriate with today's gas market pricing.

I don't think Scion is meant to be sporty at all. That doesn't seem to be the way they're marketed. They're meant to be individualized. That may be wheels, paint, decals, and perhaps a small-output supercharger, which primarily serves up more torque steer than horsepower.

It could be because I'm old, but I don't think Toyota is boring. Example: I hated the new Camry at first,(Here's more proof I'm old) but after reading up on its' numbers and actually seeing them up close, I think it's the most exciting of the mainstream mid-size sedans. FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Prius, Scions and Yaris are interesting to me as well.

It's not boring as in "I can't stand looking at it", it's boring as in "that last series of bends on the road felt no different than heavy traffic on i95". The FJ is definitely funky and sort of functional, but it's nowhere near resembling a fun car to drive. Neither is the Camry.

 

[Wolfe]

You guy gotta remember, Toyota has a very successful business that they are running. And to say that they should change the lineups with more sports cars to please few fans makes very little sense, if you are a corporation who happens to be raking in the $$$ with the current business model.

Sure, Toyota makes a lot of money, but so does BMW, and you don't see them making boring cars.

You don't need boringness to sell cars. You just need cars that a lot of people like. "What about Lexus? They're similar to BMW," you may be thinking. Well, as YSSMAN pointed out earlier in this thread, Lexus' cars are all plagued with non-defeatable traction- and stability-control systems. On top of that, they tend to understeer more than their European rivals and simply aren't as involving to drive.

The need to produce fun, involving cars extends beyond sports sedans, too -- Toyota should be more like Mazda, or how Honda was in the good ol' days, producing sensible cars that also happen to be fun to drive. It is possible. Toyota just doesn't seem to want to bother doing it.

If Toyota actually wised up and realized what they're doing wrong, then calling for a return of sportscar icons like the Supra, Celica, and MR-2 would simply be asking for icing on the cake. And those icons, if done correctly, would sell.

 

[a6m5]

It's not boring as in "I can't stand looking at it", it's boring as in "that last series of bends on the road felt no different than heavy traffic on i95". The FJ is definitely funky and sort of functional, but it's nowhere near resembling a fun car to drive. Neither is the Camry.

I understand that, but you can make only so much money with Miatas. If you want a exciting family sedan, good for you, but maybe not everyone wants to spend thousands more on performance. They sell only so many M5s, Altima SE-Rs, Civic Si's, etc. for a reason. Not many can justify the extra $$$.

We can't expect Toyota to turn into a sports car enthusiast friendly company, just because small percentage of buyers think Camry should handle like a true sports sedan.

 

[a6m5]

Sure, Toyota makes a lot of money, but so does BMW, and you don't see them making boring cars.

Oh no, you didn't. I won't even get into this one. Apples & oranges.

You don't need boringness to sell cars. You just need cars that a lot of people like. "What about Lexus? They're similar to BMW," you may be thinking. Well, as YSSMAN pointed out earlier in this thread, Lexus' cars are all plagued with non-defeatable traction- and stability-control systems. On top of that, they tend to understeer more than their European rivals and simply aren't as involving to drive.

Most of the drivers are dumb and incapable. Am I the only one who actually drive in the real world? You want BMW, that is awesome. At the same time, there is a huge demand for cars like the ones that Lexus builds.

The need to produce fun, involving cars extends beyond sports sedans, too -- Toyota should be more like Mazda, or how Honda was in the good ol' days, producing sensible cars that also happen to be fun to drive. It is possible. Toyota just doesn't seem to want to bother doing it.

Hondas are definitely more fun to drive, I'll give you that. Mazda, you bet. If I were to buy a economy to midsize car right now, I'd pick Honda or Mazda before I'd take a Toyota, probably. Exceptions might be a Corolla for the super high mpg, and Scion xB for the unmatched style(matter of opinion, yes).

If Toyota actually wised up and realized what they're doing wrong, then calling for a return of sportscar icons like the Supra, Celica, and MR-2 would simply be asking for icing on the cake. And those icons, if done correctly, would sell.

You think they are "doing wrong". No matter how "wrong" it might seem to the car guys on a Gran Turismo Forum(including myself), they are succeeding(more like dominating, really). Only thing that might slow them down right now is the huge recall-fest, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of sportiness in Toyota.

 

[Tornado]

The 350Z and S2000 are doing rather well, price-wise. There's nothing saying Toyota has to release an exact Supra follow-up and risk ridiculous insurance rates, just something that would imply that they actually care about the sports car segment.

The 350Z and S2000 are like a cave man compared to the stuff in the 90's Japanese cars. They cost less because they have less stuff in them.

 

[Wolfe]

Oh no, you didn't. I won't even get into this one. Apples & oranges.

Most of the drivers are dumb and incapable. Am I the only one who actually drive in the real world? You want BMW, that is awesome. At the same time, there is a huge demand for cars like the ones that Lexus builds.

Hondas are definitely more fun to drive, I'll give you that. Mazda, you bet. If I were to buy a economy to midsize car right now, I'd pick Honda or Mazda before I'd take a Toyota, probably. Exceptions might be a Corolla for the super high mpg, and Scion xB for the unmatched style(matter of opinion, yes).

You think they are "doing wrong". No matter how "wrong" it might seem to the car guys on a Gran Turismo Forum(including myself), they are succeeding(more like dominating, really). Only thing that might slow them down right now is the huge recall-fest, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of sportiness in Toyota.

I think you may be misinterpreting what I'm saying -- it would be foolish of me to say that Toyota needs to make more-exciting cars to do well as a company. What I'm saying is that they don't have to avoid making more-exciting cars to do well as a company. However, as far as I can tell, that's exactly what they're doing.

Perhaps if they payed close enough attention to their cars to fine-tune the suspensions and tweak everything to "feel" just right and increase the fun factor, they would also notice and fix the issues that are appearing as recalls these days.

 

[a6m5]

I think you may be misinterpreting what I'm saying -- it would be foolish of me to say that Toyota needs to make more-exciting cars to do well as a company. What I'm saying is that they don't have to avoid making more-exciting cars to do well as a company. However, as far as I can tell, that's exactly what they're doing.

Perhaps if they payed close enough attention to their cars to fine-tune the suspensions and tweak everything to "feel" just right and increase the fun factor, they would also notice and fix the issues that are appearing as recalls these days.

So, keep on building Camrys, but make it more drivable like the Mazda 6 or the Accord? I haven't driven the new Camry yet, so I don't know how boring it is compared to the competition. But by comparing the new Camry with the previous generation model, I think it looks a lot sportier on paper. Looks much more desirable, overall. Also, Corolla and Scion owners I've talked to(I haven't talked to anybody with Yaris yet) are very happy driving their cars. Obviously, it won't be racing Integra Type R's anytime soon, but I don't get the impression that they are choir to drive(that's my Altima 2.5).

 

[YSSMAN]

I've driven the new Camry (an LE 4cyl), and it is a dissapointment behind the wheel. Yes, it is a "good" car in the sense that it is reliable transportation that gets good fuel economy and will carry it's value for some time, but that doesn't make it a good car in some people's books either.

Compared to the Altima 2.5, Accord LX, Mazda6i, G6 GT, Malibu LTZ, and MKIV Jettas I've driven, the Camry comes out at the bottom. Yes, I do realize the Malibu and G6 are both to some extent just as "disconnected" as the Camry, but they had a far better impression of "value" for less money, and the interior was argueably better in both GM products.

...By days end, I would be having to choose between the Mazda6i and the Jetta.

But thats just me...

 

[GT4_Rule]

It's a good car in terms of reliable transportation only. Everything else is utterly boring. It will only be good as a car to get from Point A to B reliably, nothing more.

 

[dougiemeats]

If Toyota was actually successful in Formula 1, I wonder if they would have more motivation in producing more exciting cars.

But I guess they are using the Lexus division to showcase their motorsports technology.

* Lexus has replaced Toyota in the Super GT series
* Lexus will race in the GT2 class of the American Le Mans Series
* Lexus GS450h entered in a 24-hour race to test hybrid technology
* Lexus LF-A to showcase Toyota's Formula 1 technology

 

[a6m5]

It will only be good as a car to get from Point A to B reliably, nothing more.

You could say that about half the cars sold in North America. Probably more.

Edit: And they probably won't do it as well, as in parts going out earlier.