Toyota to recall 3.8M vehicles over floor mats

[harrytuttle]

I have more of a problem with her yanking on the e-brake and nothing happening.

The e-brake is not an e-brake; it's a parking brake (or hand brake). It's not there for emergencies; it's there to keep the car still while the engine is off and the car is otherwise not in use. The force an e-brake exerts is minimal compared to the main brakes. Next time you drive, leave your e-brake on and nudge the accelerator pedal. You'd be surprised how little effort it takes to get going.

Alternatively, you could consider it an e-brake, as in "I have to make this turn now".

I personally feel that all these fanciful and ridiculous stories people are coming up with is a glaring look at how very little people know about cars and how they work. In situations like this their lack of very basic knowledge turns dangerous.

I agree. I think the vast majority of these issues are the result of problems between the seat and the steering wheel, rather than the accelerator pedal and the floor mat. Unless Toyota has gone 100% drive-by-wire, there's no way moving the gear selection knob shouldn't solve the problem (save for the over-revved engine). Her problem (and everyone else's) requires a complete failure of the brakes and transmission, requires them to be by-wire only, and be failing during the exact same time the accelerator pedal stuck.

Getting mixed messages from this hearing. But the over-riding message seems to be that almost nobody knows what they're talking about... love the part where LaHood stated they have no electrical engineers... then finally admitted that they had "two".

Let's see... almost every brand new car in the past two or three years has an electronic throttle and electric steering assist... electronically activated airbags, ABS, EBD, ESC/DSC/ESP/whatever, electronic injection, electronic ignition... and the guys in charge of highway safety have... two?... electrical engineers on the staff. Wow. That's really confidence inspiring.

The problem is that there is far too much technical detail for any one group to keep up with. Let's take Toyota, for example. For an independent investigation to be carried out in a timely fashion, there would have to be at least as many engineers on staff as there are who created Toyota's electrical systems. They would then have to familiarize themselves with the design, go through the process of rebuilding it, then fully test every aspect of it to determine where this unique event happens. If it takes Toyota 2 years to fully develop the Prius (which is doesn't; it's far longer), it will take an equivalent number of engineers at least that long to fully learn and debug that same system. Now multiply that by however many auto manufacturers there are.

Granted, many of these electrical systems are outsourced (Bosch, e.g.) but even those are still customized versions and used in very different ways. Two engineers is insanely low, but the IIHTSA could never keep up anyway. At best, they'd have to outsource the research and pray that the employees of that company don't have close ties (financial or otherwise) to Toyota. It's like financial regulations; the regulators are all former employees of the companies they're regulating. What's their incentive to fully implement any regulations?

This is a circus. That's what this is.

Oh, it would have been that anyway. The economy is down, car companies everywhere are the bad guys, and we all need a good 'bad guy loses big' story to cheer us up. Toyota just beat everyone else to the plate.

And am I correct in assuming this lady is an idiot? The car wouldn't stop, and she actually called her husband to hear his voice for the last time? Call me crazy & out of my mind, but if my car got out of control, one of the last things I would be doing would be calling somebody on my cell. She actually called someone while in the driver seat of an out of control car? Seriously?

You mean like the 911 call from the people who died in the Lexus? No, it's not the first thing that comes to my mind, either, but then again perhaps I'm someone who likes to act first, pray for help later (if at all).

P.S. I love my stick shift.

I do, too. I prefer manual control of everything, or at least a physical connection. Besides the safety of having a backup, the entire device is simpler to diagnose and fix. The more removed we allow drivers to be from the act of driving, the more crashes and "unintended accelerations" we will have.

I continue to be amazed at how simple problems are 'solved' with complex answers. Car too heavy? We'll give it more power. Too many crashes? We'll give you more airbags and an alphabet soup of TCS/ECT/PDC/etc. rather than just legislate higher requirements for driving. It's right up there with the complete failures of the food industry and housing industry: a lack of critical thinking.

About 15 years ago, a small revolution happened in the interview process for technical jobs: abstract questions. Queries like "what kind of tree would you be" became commonplace. I remember one that was a request to design a bicycle for the vision impaired. You know...for like...a blind person. The problem with this is that you get people who are very creative at solving bizzare problems in bizzare ways when in fact simple solutions are almost always best: give the blind guy a lift.

 

[a6m5]

You mean like the 911 call from the people who died in the Lexus? No, it's not the first thing that comes to my mind, either, but then again perhaps I'm someone who likes to act first, pray for help later (if at all).

That call is just devastating. I still can't believe the car wouldn't shift in neutral, or ignition couldn't be turned off, but that doesn't change the fact that, out of control throttle killed these people. I can only hope American drivers become more aware, and educated about the cars they drive, and driving safety.

I continue to be amazed at how simple problems are 'solved' with complex answers. Car too heavy? We'll give it more power. Too many crashes? We'll give you more airbags and an alphabet soup of TCS/ECT/PDC/etc. rather than just legislate higher requirements for driving. It's right up there with the complete failures of the food industry and housing industry: a lack of critical thinking.

About 15 years ago, a small revolution happened in the interview process for technical jobs: abstract questions. Queries like "what kind of tree would you be" became commonplace. I remember one that was a request to design a bicycle for the vision impaired. You know...for like...a blind person. The problem with this is that you get people who are very creative at solving bizzare problems in bizzare ways when in fact simple solutions are almost always best: give the blind guy a lift.

I've heard similar concerns before, but it really is a great point. 👍

 

[niky]

About 15 years ago, a small revolution happened in the interview process for technical jobs: abstract questions. Queries like "what kind of tree would you be" became commonplace. I remember one that was a request to design a bicycle for the vision impaired. You know...for like...a blind person. The problem with this is that you get people who are very creative at solving bizzare problems in bizzare ways when in fact simple solutions are almost always best: give the blind guy a lift.

They actually want people to design a bicylce for the blind? Someone already did!

Vision-impaired people sit in the back.

 

[Eric.]

Are you kidding? The driving public (i.e. those who don't belong to an automotive forum and are ignorant that such a thing exists) does not see this as something they need to change for. Its simply horrible products by horrible companies who are too worried about making money to be sure their products are safe so they are going to go buy a (x) so that big bad meanie Toyota doesn't get their money.

 

[ANFD]

Saw an interesting piece of video on the local Atlanta news last night. Initial helicopter footage of a car stuffed into the front of a house. Close up then shows it to be a 2009 Camry. The car was owned by the neighbor who after starting the car in her driveway and putting it in gear claimed the car sped away and accelerated into the neighbor's house. They claimed they applied as much force to the brake pedal as they could with both feet but the car simply wouldn't stop. The distance travelled was actually quite short and must have occurred in a very quick instance which might explain their absence of mind to shift to neutral etc. If the event occurs from start to finish in a matter of seconds, it is reasonable to understand why the driver didn't take all the steps described in this thread.

And for those of you here who claim that people are "faking" the event for profit, I don't think it applies here. No one was hurt, no injuries so likely no law suit. Sure they might get a new car out of it, but why go through all that hassle when you already have a brand new car. I feel sorry for the home owner who now has a giant hole where their front door used to be. Their homeowners insurance will probably make good on the repair but I just don't see anyone really profiting much at Toyota's expense here.

 

[Northstar]

That reminded me of this.

 

[Philly]

The e-brake is not an e-brake; it's a parking brake (or hand brake). It's not there for emergencies; it's there to keep the car still while the engine is off and the car is otherwise not in use. The force an e-brake exerts is minimal compared to the main brakes. Next time you drive, leave your e-brake on and nudge the accelerator pedal. You'd be surprised how little effort it takes to get going.

A properly tightened parking brake will prevent the car from moving, even with the engine going. Isn't it supposed to be like 7 or 11 clicks until the wheel starts sliding before the brake gives up? But I agree that it won't do that much to slow the car down. The rear wheels aren't that great for braking a car. Especially if the motor is putting a lot of power to the front wheels.

I continue to be amazed at how simple problems are 'solved' with complex answers. Car too heavy? We'll give it more power. Too many crashes? We'll give you more airbags and an alphabet soup of TCS/ECT/PDC/etc. rather than just legislate higher requirements for driving. It's right up there with the complete failures of the food industry and housing industry: a lack of critical thinking.

An excellent point. I think America is going about this in the wrong way. True, the Toyota recall is a great 'wake up call' about the safety of the cars. But people should really also think about how problems do come up and such and that perhaps the standards of driving on American roads are a bit low.

 

[niky]

Saw an interesting piece of video on the local Atlanta news last night. Initial helicopter footage of a car stuffed into the front of a house. Close up then shows it to be a 2009 Camry. The car was owned by the neighbor who after starting the car in her driveway and putting it in gear claimed the car sped away and accelerated into the neighbor's house. They claimed they applied as much force to the brake pedal as they could with both feet but the car simply wouldn't stop. The distance travelled was actually quite short and must have occurred in a very quick instance which might explain their absence of mind to shift to neutral etc. If the event occurs from start to finish in a matter of seconds, it is reasonable to understand why the driver didn't take all the steps described in this thread.

A woman locally crushed a 4th grader in a parking lot. Another rolled over her SUV... in a parking lot. Still another drove into a house... and died.

In all three cases, the women admitted to mistakenly pressing the gas pedal instead of the brake. The one who died was parked with the engine on and accidentally shifted it into gear. One can only assume that, in her panic, she stepped on the gas.

My aunt ran into a truck because she stepped on the gas instead of the brake when slowing down to a stop.

And for those of you here who claim that people are "faking" the event for profit, I don't think it applies here. No one was hurt, no injuries so likely no law suit. Sure they might get a new car out of it, but why go through all that hassle when you already have a brand new car. I feel sorry for the home owner who now has a giant hole where their front door used to be. Their homeowners insurance will probably make good on the repair but I just don't see anyone really profiting much at Toyota's expense here.

Before this, most people would admit responsibility for stupidity. But now there's an easy out. As long as you own a Toyota. Not a profit-motive... but more of a cop-out from paying for the damages.

-

And who knows what people will do to get out of a car and into another one? In our recent flash floods, I heard of one guy who drove his one-year old CR-V into the flood, revving the engine and turning on all the accessories for maximum damage... just so the insurance company would replace it with a new one.

Still another replaced his Ford SUV, screaming "LEMON!" at the top of his lungs. Saying that the 4x4 differential was broken. Talked to his service advisor... the guy was really unhappy with having to put up with the customer. Said customer got a motorbike next. A BMW. Which went into the shop every month for one thing or another. A few months later, it "caught fire" on the side of the road. I'd hate to be the next dealer to have him as a customer.

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I've actually witnessed cases of SUA. Way back in the 80's and 90's. No electronics to blame, then... just sticking throttles. One sticks out for its idiocy... the vehicle's engine revved like mad... the driver backed into a few other cars... then shifted it out of reverse and into drive while the engine was racing and smashed into a few more. Lord knows why he didn't just shift it into park...

-

SUA may, in some cases, be real. But the media circus surrounding it makes it very easy for careless drivers to blame it for everything.

 

[a6m5]

And they are not always lying. Sometimes, people actually believe that they didn't do anything wrong, so it must've been somebody else's fault.

Just to add on niky's post. Not making excuses for Toyota, or any specific case.

 

[Bram Turismo]

They claimed they applied as much force to the brake pedal as they could with both feet but the car simply wouldn't stop.

Looks like the driver forgot what was the brake pedal, and what was the accelerator pedal.

 

[a6m5]

Interesting twist in that sticky throttle story, at least for me. Some Lexus, they don't have the traditional turn ignition. They have the start buttons. I had to ask my coworker, who owns an newer ES, on the button ignition procedure today. As you would guess, it is push to start, push to turn off. I'm still confident that I would have figured that out on my own, but 1) It did require to stop & think for second 2) I would feel little less confident in a button, compared to the turn style ignition.

Probably nothing, but something I found interesting.

Looks like the driver forgot what was the brake pedal, and what was the accelerator pedal.

Many accidents are caused by exactly that. I'm betting small percentage of claims made against Toyota will be by those drivers who stomped on the wrong pedal.

 

[Northstar]

Apparently there are reports of the fix not fixing the problem.



I do feel Toyota does make safe cars though. As long as you are not in them or anywhere near one.

 

[Philly]

Didn't the number of cases of unintended acceleration go up significantly once everybody heard about the unintended acceleration? That's not a problem with the cars.

I think there's also an issue of people and not fully knowing how to handle their cars. And *Surprise!*, changing out the gas pedal doesn't suddenly make you a better driver. Unfortunately, this whole recall business seems to be being pinned completely on Toyota when I think the public should also be taking it as a wakeup call that stuff does happen and we need to be engaged enough and knowledgeable enough to know what to do in the situation.

 

[homeforsummer]

Didn't the number of cases of unintended acceleration go up significantly once everybody heard about the unintended acceleration? That's not a problem with the cars.

Yep. Typical case of the public panicking and joining the bandwagon. It was like the Jonathan Ross and Russel Brand thing over here - a handful of complaints after the show, and after a week, when it hit the press, all of a sudden there were thousands of complaints.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

[thefast1]

That's got me gob smacked.
Of all the things to recall on electrical faults causing fires, braking fault's causing crashes.
But floor mats.

 

[eSZee]

people were assuming it was the floor mats because on many occasions, the gas pedal would get stuck on the lip of the mat. Toyota apparently had double matted cars, rubber on bottom with carpet mats on top of those.

 

[Adamgp]

People didn't assume, Toyota did.

First they blamed the drivers, when that didn't work they blamed the floormats. That wasn't the issue so they blamed the gas pedal.

 

[eSZee]

I didn't say it wasn't toyota people. As for blaming the drivers, I'd do the same.

 

[kahniacfloyd]

HAHA Toyota:Moving Forward...even if you dont want to.

 

[Keef]

Steve Martin landed a pretty rough Toyota joke at the Academy Awards:

[YOUTUBEhd]EtIJ2Cxd5b0[/YOUTUBEhd]

I thought it was funny.

 

[Jim Prower]

I'd like to add...The Prius and all Hybrid Synergy Drive Toyotas have an electronic gearshift. Whether this can be overridden is beyond me.

 

[Northstar]

As for blaming the drivers, I'd do the same.

you can't blame the consumers though since it's obviously a defect that isn't the consumers fault. If your going to make a product you have to make sure that it isn't going to malfunction under normal operating conditions. Blaming the driver for the gas pedal sticking is like blaming the user of a laptop for the battery exploding.

Yes, drivers should be better trained to handle a situation like this, but blaming the consumer for something that is of your own doing is just a shady business practice.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Don't forget to sue the gasoline companies bcause nothing would accelerate without gas!

Obviously not everyone should have a driver's license either!

 

[Adamgp]

M-M-M-My Toyota!

 

[a6m5]

you can't blame the consumers though since it's obviously a defect that isn't the consumers fault. If your going to make a product you have to make sure that it isn't going to malfunction under normal operating conditions. Blaming the driver for the gas pedal sticking is like blaming the user of a laptop for the battery exploding.

Yes, drivers should be better trained to handle a situation like this, but blaming the consumer for something that is of your own doing is just a shady business practice.

Like I posted before, Toyota isn't the only manufacturer who operates this way. By your logic, the industry as a whole is shady.

What I want to know, how did other manufacturers handle their unintended acceleration claims? Did they issue an recall? If so, what was their fix?

Edit: I forgot to comment on Keef's video. While I thought the Toyota joke wasn't that great(the timer bit was ), the video is hilarious!

 

[Joey D]

The BS-o-meter just went to eleven.

Video: San Diego 'runaway Prius' has media buzzing

Both the second- and third-generation Prius are part of Toyota's massive recall – the former for floormat problems, the latter for braking issues – but a new incident from California has the automaker looking into more potential issues with the second-generation car.

As CNN tells it, Jim Sikes was driving his Prius on Interstate 8 in San Diego County when he pushed the gas pedal to pass a slow-moving car, but then, as Sikes says, "[the pedal] did something kind of funny ... it jumped and it just stuck there." Sikes called 911 for assistance, but a California Highway Patrol officer caught up to the car, and the officer used a loudspeaker to give Sikes instructions on how to safely stop the vehicle with the emergency brake. "As it was going, I was trying the brakes... it wasn't stopping," Sikes recounts. The highway patrol officer said that Sikes had reached speeds of over 90 miles per hour.

Neither Sikes or any other drivers were hurt during this alleged unintended acceleration incident. In a statement issued Monday night, Toyota says that it has dispatched a field technical specialist to investigate the case. Click through the jump to watch the CNN video and you can read more about it in Los Angeles Times link below.

Video Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/09/video-san-diego-runaway-prius-has-media-buzzing/#continued

I'm not buying this, and seriously how stupid do you have to be (or must you feel) that you don't know how to stop a car with the emergency brake and had to have a cop shout it over a loud speaker.

 

[Philly]

Come to think of it... I think my car has some sort of accelerator-sticking problem. And I somehow doubt that I could figure out how to stop my car until I had flashing lights coming up behind me...

I'm with Joey. I can't seem to figure out if these Toyota drivers are stupid enough to play stupid or stupid enough to be stupid. Either way, I find it disturbing that I have to share the road with these idiots.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's getting pretty ridiculous now. I get the impression people are being thick just to get some lawsuit money. Misinformation is a big problem too, there was a column in one of the UK car magazines where the columnist had overheard a woman at a Toyota dealership asking the dealer to check out her brakes "because of what she'd heard".

She was driving an Aygo, which isn't even affected by the "brake problems". Hell, only Aygos with stability control are even affected by the accelerator pedal recall.

It's a mixture of panic and stupidity now, not mechanical problems.

 

[Neal]

I think there's a more sinister risk of death due to the mass recalls that hasn't been accounted for yet.

I've spent 4 hours waiting at my Toyota dealers today while they inspected an intermittent grinding noise coming from my front nearside wheel, totally unrelated to the recall and needless to say they couldn't find anything wrong. I had to wait so long because the place was full to bursting with people taking their cars in for recalls and then it dawned on me, I was the only customer there under the age of 70! During my incredibly long wait I started thinking about how many hours had all the pensions around the world had to spend waiting in Toyota dealers getting their cars fixed?

Now these poor folks haven't got long left on this earth so their time is precious and by the law of averages there must have been a few who had popped their clogs before they got their car back. Seriously, I saw the Grim Reaper sharpening his scythe in the car park! Has anyone done the maths to work out the risk of death due to a faulty car against the risk of death due to pensioners being kept waiting to get it fixed??? I think not!

p.s. I should point out my Avensis is a company car and was the best option from a very dull selection.

p.p.s I would also like to clarify I am not stupid Toyota driver trying to sue Toyota for a non-existent problem. I'm a stupid Toyota driver because I drive my Avensis like I stole it!

 

[homeforsummer]

I wonder how many of those senior citizens do like... less than a thousand miles a year. I don't think either of sets of grandparents does more than about £3k in a year. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if many of them didn't even leave the town they live in. I don't think the throttle can stick if you only use ten percent of it's travel, can it?