Traction / stability control and ABS

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mx597turbo

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I have been using the F2007 in GT5P a lot lately. At first, I was playing with traction control, asm, and abs on. The car was easy to drive, and my times were good.

More recently, I have been playing with all these options turned off, just like real F1. To my surprise, the car wasn't any more difficult to control. I did spin out a few times at first, but now I can finish 1st against 101 level within 3 to 6 laps depending on the track. Once I get into the lead, I keep putting distance between myself and 2nd. I playing using a G25, set to simulation, and physics on professional.

So my question is why don't they allow these driving aids in real F1? Other than allowing for a little more throttle/brake to be applied, I doubt the electronic aids would make any real difference in a race.

What do you guys think?
 
Of course, playing GT5P is exactly the same experience as real life :rolleyes:

Watch Melbourne 2008, specifically the Ferrari's of Massa and Raikkonen. This was the first race that aids had been banned and you can see that they struggle.
Now compare races of 2007 to races of 2008/9. You will see drivers make far more mistakes with throttle application and braking, especially in the wet races.

Aids make a huge difference and I'm very glad they were banned. Now we have interesting starts and more mistakes. The driving should be down to the driver, not a computer system.
They don't allow them for this reason - it was too easy before with launch control, etc.
 
I don't think you can really call driving an F1 car easy no matter how many aids were on. But what I'm saying is that I don't think the aids would change the results much if at all. I really think whoever is the fastest without aids would still be the fastest with aids, maybe just a little faster.

I just don't get why races continue to fight technology. I would be a lot more excited about F1 if they went back to the v10s and/or forced induction, widened the wheelbase and allowed full slicks (again). It would also be nice if they allowed more than 6 piston calipers and rotors bigger than what's on a Civic (oh, and how about boosted brakes).... On this setup, aids would make the race both more exciting and a LOT safer.

It used to be that technology would filter down from race cars to street cars. It's kind of ironic that today's econo boxes have more tech...
 
They didn't ban it to change the results. They banned it to bring the racing back toward the driver's talent and not the car's systems.
 
mx597turbo
I just don't get why races continue to fight technology. I would be a lot more excited about F1 if they went back to the v10s and/or forced induction, widened the wheelbase and allowed full slicks (again). It would also be nice if they allowed more than 6 piston calipers and rotors bigger than what's on a Civic (oh, and how about boosted brakes).... On this setup, aids would make the race both more exciting and a LOT safer.
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Yeah cause traction/stability control and abs will make 1500-2000bhp safe in a 650kg car.....
 
mx597turbo
I just don't get why races continue to fight technology. I would be a lot more excited about F1 if they went back to the v10s and/or forced induction, widened the wheelbase and allowed full slicks (again). It would also be nice if they allowed more than 6 piston calipers and rotors bigger than what's on a Civic (oh, and how about boosted brakes).... On this setup, aids would make the race both more exciting and a LOT safer.
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As Holden pointed out, they are already on slicks. They can't have bigger brake discs as they then wouldn't fit inside the wheels. Bigger discs wouldn't help any as the brakes can already over ride the grip of the (slick) tyres.
 
I'm a little off topic here, but what tires do you think should be used with the F1? Logic says R-class, but it feels like they provide too much grip.
 
I'm not sure if this is a GT5:P vs. real life F1 comparison thread, but I'll skip the virtual world, where anyone can drive a F1, and just comment on the driving aids ban, to say that, although F1 should be the sport where the greatest technological advances are created and tested, I fully support the notion that it must remain - as much as possible - a "drivers" sport. I thought KERS mixed both aims perfectly and I think that's the way to go.
 
mx597turbo
I don't think you can really call driving an F1 car easy no matter how many aids were on. But what I'm saying is that I don't think the aids would change the results much if at all. I really think whoever is the fastest without aids would still be the fastest with aids, maybe just a little faster.

I just don't get why races continue to fight technology. I would be a lot more excited about F1 if they went back to the v10s and/or forced induction, widened the wheelbase and allowed full slicks (again). It would also be nice if they allowed more than 6 piston calipers and rotors bigger than what's on a Civic (oh, and how about boosted brakes).... On this setup, aids would make the race both more exciting and a LOT safer.

It used to be that technology would filter down from race cars to street cars. It's kind of ironic that today's econo boxes have more tech...
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Technology still does come from F1....just not in those areas.

The problem with making the cars highly advanced is that it becomes massively expensive to compete. This is why we "only" have V8's and little to no engine development.
But even so, F1 still manages to pioneer or improve things, even if it isn't things like brake discs. I'm not going to bother listing all the things that were helped by Formula 1, but I'm sure you can find a list out there. They even had a museum exhibit on the very subject.

It should ultimately be down to driver control. Things like TCS and ABS are taking away this and making it all computer controlled - what's the point in even having drivers if they aren't controlling the car?
I imagine road cars will slowly become more and more sophisticated as time goes by, taking more control away from the driver - but thats for safety reasons not speed. You can't compare technology designed for competition and focusing on driver skill and technology designed for ease of use and safety.

Don't assume that just because the engines don't produce 1000+bhp and the brakes are relatively small that F1 doesn't develop technology.
 
For the record, turning off traction control in the F2007 would be making it less like real life because in 2007 all F1 cars used traction control. So i you want to "keep it real" you would leave it on for that particular car. It's the same as shifting the Nissan GTR with a stick shift, you wouldn't do it for realisms sake.👍
 
I honestly don't know how I feel about F1 anymore. It seems like it's stagnating. Maybe it's past it's pinnacle at this point. There are just too many restrictions aimed at keeping it competitive.

It seems like they want to slow the sport down. I would love to see the improvements I mentioned earlier. I would love to see new engines, or different types of engines (like a v8 vs. a v12), get rid of that stupid 20 engine per season rule. Use as many tires as you need.

In the end, I really wish Can-Am would make a comeback. That was by far the most innovative race series. Maybe not super competitive, but no two seasons were alike...
 
The governance of F1 has always been about slowing the sport down. It has to be done periodically otherwise the cars would get too fast for the circuits.

As far as restrictions to limit engines etc. That is down to the lack of money available in sponsorship due to the global recession.
 
mx597turbo
There are just too many restrictions aimed at keeping it competitive.
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The engine and tyre restrictions in F1 are there to keep costs down and are nothing to do with keeping it competitive.

mx597turbo
It seems like they want to slow the sport down.
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They want to try to keep it safe. The cars were getting too fast for the tracks and it is easier and cheaper to slow the cars down than to re do all the circuits.

mx597turbo
I would love to see the improvements I mentioned earlier.
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Even though the improved brakes you suggested won't make any difference? You actually want the brakes to be less efficient as that would give more over-taking opportunities.

mx597turbo
I would love to see new engines, or different types of engines (like a v8 vs. a v12), get rid of that stupid 20 engine per season rule. Use as many tires as you need.
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But 1 type of engine would have an advantage, then everyone would use that type of engine in order to be competitive, then you'd be back to one type of engine again. For example, a V8 would be smaller and have more torque than the longer, bulkier, but slightly more powerful V12. We had that in the past until everyone split the difference and we ended up with a field of V10s...

You would need some kind of equivalency formula to keep them roughly level, but then that's not F1. Better to have a set of regulations and let each manufacturer build their own engine, as it is now.
 
Allowing for 6 wheels and increased downforce could substantially increase the speed at which the cars could safely navigate the circuits... Probably to the point where the limiting factor would be the drivers response time and ability to withstand high G forces. And at that point, aids would have very little effect on the races anyway.
 
Holdenhsvgtsr
Yeah cause traction/stability control and abs will make 1500-2000bhp safe in a 650kg car.....
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He didn't say anything about making the car safer. I think his point was, why would they get rid of something that would make the car more efficient at doing what it was built to do, and that's going as fast as possible.
 
devildog666
He didn't say anything about making the car safer. I think his point was, why would they get rid of something that would make the car more efficient at doing what it was built to do, and that's going as fast as possible.
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I just don't get why races continue to fight technology. I would be a lot more excited about F1 if they went back to the v10s and/or forced induction, widened the wheelbase and allowed full slicks (again). It would also be nice if they allowed more than 6 piston calipers and rotors bigger than what's on a Civic (oh, and how about boosted brakes).... On this setup, aids would make the race both more exciting and a LOT safer.
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As you were...
 
devildog666
why would they get rid of something that would make the car more efficient at doing what it was built to do, and that's going as fast as possible.
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To answer this directly - because it involves letting a computer do all the work. If we want to watch computers control cars, well, we have computer games for that.
You can't take the driver out of F1 just as much as you can't take the technology out. F1 should always be the pinnacle of (open-wheel) driving skill while at the same time be the pinnacle of motorsport technology.

mx597turbo
Allowing for 6 wheels and increased downforce could substantially increase the speed at which the cars could safely navigate the circuits... Probably to the point where the limiting factor would be the drivers response time and ability to withstand high G forces. And at that point, aids would have very little effect on the races anyway.
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Why do you keep saying this? Aids have a massive effect on the amount of errors made during a race, my original example of race starts. With the electronic aids, the driver doesn't have to worry about too much throttle and wheel spin, everyone gets perfect starts everytime. Is it effecient? Yes. Is it adding to the entertainment? No. Sport is about entertainment, despite technology playing a part in F1, it is not the sole reason for its existence and it doesn't serve to use everything possible to go the fastest in the safest way possible.
The idea is to provide the most entertaining and fastest open wheel championship in the world while being safe. Aids are not entertaining in this sense and are not adding anything particularly in safety.
 
With 6 wheels and additional downforce, corners could be taken at near straight speeds (this is a quote from an issue of Car and Driver where they discussed a new Can-Am series). But the g forces and human perception would be the limiting factors in how fast the car could be driven.

Four rear driving wheels would make for very little wheelspin. The traction added by the two additional wheels would increase grip to where ABS really wouldn't be necessary. Braking and cornering could probably go up by 2 or more G's, especially with added downforce. So there goes the need for stability / traction control. I think at this point, the human body would be pushed to it's absolute limit. Therefore it becomes even more about the driver.
 
mx597turbo
With 6 wheels and additional downforce, corners could be taken at near straight speeds (this is a quote from an issue of Car and Driver where they discussed a new Can-Am series). But the g forces and human perception would be the limiting factors in how fast the car could be driven.

Four rear driving wheels would make for very little wheelspin. The traction added by the two additional wheels would increase grip to where ABS really wouldn't be necessary. Braking and cornering could probably go up by 2 or more G's, especially with added downforce. So there goes the need for stability / traction control. I think at this point, the human body would be pushed to it's absolute limit. Therefore it becomes even more about the driver.
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So if its getting to the limits of human control, how can you argue that its safe?

Also, the main criticsm of current F1 regulations is that overtaking is compromised by the huge levels of downforce. So if we have cars that handle even better, surely overtaking will become impossible, especially if the driver has to pull a manouver he can barely control to do so.

I'd rather have 4 wheels and wheelspin than 6 wheels and no wheel spin. Like I said before, efficiency != entertainment. Did you just ignore that part of my post?
 
Just think of the run off areas all this massive increase in cornering speed would lead to. There wouldn't be any room for Grandstands. That means no paying customers therefore no income for the circuit owner.
 

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