Trump FCC is doing away with net neutrality,

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Are you sure about that?

What is the economic incentive for an ISP to provide "unfiltered" access? The "real money" for service providers — that new source of revenue which you believe will attract so much competition — will come from striking lucrative content deals with websites and online services, not adding subscribers. The only successful ISPs will be the ones who can leverage the most favorable agreements with content providers, not the ISPs who are committed to providing the best quality of service for their paying customers.

Those deals are only lucrative because people are on the other end buying the service and visiting the websites. You can't make people want to go to sony's website. The more services get filtered, the more people will want something unfiltered. They'll get it too, either via VPN, or through switching networks. Subscribers are all that matters here. They're all that matters. You can have the most favorable backroom deals you want, but if people aren't buying, it's worthless.

Using "more competition" as the cornerstone of your argument underscores this point. Internet service is not like other types of businesses. You can't just buy a piece of property and start your own ISP to compete with the big guys: you'll have to secure a local franchise agreement in a city, town, or county, make arrangements with the local power company to hang your fiber on their poles (if they'll even let you), get FCC licenses, etc. Google Fiber and municipal broadband projects have been trying to do that for years now, and incumbent providers have fought tooth-and-nail in the courts to prevent competition and hold on to their local monopolies. They'll fight even harder without net neutrality, making the barrier to entry for new ISPs even higher.

What about T-Mobile, Sprint, ATT, Verizon? Do they not count? Microsoft wants to get into the game too by providing wireless broadband. I think wired ISP filtering/throttling would likely spell the end of that technology.

Because "Binge On" can be turned on or off at no additional charge — so T-Mobile users have the option of whether their traffic is filtered or not — and because T-Mobile has made efforts to ensure that any video provider can use it free of charge (yes, even PornHub), I don't see that as a net neutrality issue.

Any "video" provider. This is still throttling (from the perspective of a data cap), websites that don't push video... like yours. Why is it ok that Netflix internet traffic can bypass T-Mobile's data cap, but yours can't? That's preference for particular data that heavily favors certain (advertised) websites.
 
Isn't the demand by end users for unfiltered internet access far greater than demand for filtered internet?

In as much as that the current status quo of unfiltered internet access is what a supermajority or very almost the entirety of internet users wants?

A mantra of "the more filtered it becomes, the more people will want it to be unfiltered" seems bizarre to me given that well... it already is unfiltered and legally protected at being unfiltered, so why change it?
 
A mantra of "the more filtered it becomes, the more people will want it to be unfiltered" seems bizarre to me given that well... it already is unfiltered and legally protected at being unfiltered, so why change it?

Soon it may not be... (*cough* Pai *cough*)
 
A mantra of "the more filtered it becomes, the more people will want it to be unfiltered" seems bizarre to me given that well... it already is unfiltered and legally protected at being unfiltered, so why change it?

I went over that.

It's not specifically that, although that specifically has the effect of expanding the marketability of rural areas, which encourages investment in growing their networks to communities that don't currently have them. Why? Because it lowers the end-user bill, meaning more subscribers.

But there are a lot of unintended effects of treating ISPs as common carriers under the 1930s act. The particular act is apparently well known for its bloated, extensive regulations. ISPs have to make sure that they're in compliance with regulations set forth for 1930s phone companies. It discourages investment.

Investment is further discouraged when you're not sure exactly what regulations you're going to be treated under next year. If the FCC suddenly categorizes you under the 1930s act (as they did) what do you do? You put off investment until you can finish challenging it in court. And if you don't get a definitive answer, you put off investment even further until things settle out. If you're getting jerked around from one administration to the next (which they are), you look to congress (appropriate) to give an answer that you think will survive partisan politics. Until then, who is going to roll out the dough for infrastructure improvements and tech development?

You have to step back and think about this from the perspective of a company.
 
Those deals are only lucrative because people are on the other end buying the service and visiting the websites. You can't make people want to go to sony's website. The more services get filtered, the more people will want something unfiltered. They'll get it too, either via VPN, or through switching networks. Subscribers are all that matters here. They're all that matters. You can have the most favorable backroom deals you want, but if people aren't buying, it's worthless.
They'll want to go to Sony's website if that's the only one they can get to.

I simply don't follow your logic at all. Thanks to net neutrality, we already have that wonderful unfiltered access that you acknowledge consumers crave... why are you working so hard to justify giving that up?

Your insistence that consumers should jump through expensive and complicated hoops, like switching providers or using VPNs, is absurd and naive. There will be a strong economic incentive for all ISPs to manipulate their traffic, and with such sweeping control of the Internet that you've given them, they'll legally be able to throttle your VPN traffic, too.

It's not specifically that, although that specifically has the effect of expanding the marketability of rural areas, which encourages investment in growing their networks to communities that don't currently have them. Why? Because it lowers the end-user bill, meaning more subscribers.

But there are a lot of unintended effects of treating ISPs as common carriers under the 1930s act. The particular act is apparently well known for its bloated, extensive regulations. ISPs have to make sure that they're in compliance with regulations set forth for 1930s phone companies. It discourages investment.

Investment is further discouraged when you're not sure exactly what regulations you're going to be treated under next year. If the FCC suddenly categorizes you under the 1930s act (as they did) what do you do? You put off investment until you can finish challenging it in court. And if you don't get a definitive answer, you put off investment even further until things settle out. If you're getting jerked around from one administration to the next (which they are), you look to congress (appropriate) to give an answer that you think will survive partisan politics. Until then, who is going to roll out the dough for infrastructure improvements and tech development?

You have to step back and think about this from the perspective of a company.
I thought you said consumers would be clamoring for neutral connections? Too bad for those poor/rural/underserved communities, eh? Looks like they will only get access to filtered service from ISPs who took a lot of money from content providers to subsidize the build-out.

Of course, this is all beside the fact that your claims of net neutrality harming infrastructure investment is supported by data that is sketchy at best, generated by "think tanks" that are funded by the telecom companies themselves.

I agree that competition and expanding broadband access is very important. Why do we have to impact the fundamental workings of the Internet to make that happen? Why can't we just keep the Internet the same and make it easier for small businesses to start new ISPs, forcing everyone in the industry to compete with lower prices and better service? (Oh, wait — that might force the monopolistic incumbents to compete, too — better not do that.)

What about T-Mobile, Sprint, ATT, Verizon? Do they not count? Microsoft wants to get into the game too by providing wireless broadband. I think wired ISP filtering/throttling would likely spell the end of that technology.
The largest ISPs and phone companies in the country will have the leverage to negotiate the most lucrative deals of all. If you're a shareholder and the company could immediately add another $500 million (or a whole lot more) to their bottom line by extorting service providers, what would you say? "No, guys, we'll get more subscribers if we stay neutral!"

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Microsoft wants to get into the game too by providing wireless broadband. I think wired ISP filtering/throttling would likely spell the end of that technology.
Microsoft wants to get into the WISP (wireless ISP) business? Why not throttle iOS and Apple software updates so it will take people longer to download software from their competitor, or slow down Google so people will spend more time on Bing. Then Google can retaliate by slowing down Windows updates on Google Fiber, so your preferred hardware will ultimately help determine who you need to buy your Internet connection from. Pretty cool, eh? It's all possible in your world without net neutrality.

Further, your suggestion that wireless service is an adequate substitute for wired service further supports my suspicions that you don't fully understand how the Internet or its physical infrastructure works.

Any "video" provider. This is still throttling (from the perspective of a data cap), websites that don't push video... like yours. Why is it ok that Netflix internet traffic can bypass T-Mobile's data cap, but yours can't? That's preference for particular data that heavily favors certain (advertised) websites.
So you are arguing in favor of net neutrality now?

They are, indeed, showing preference for a particular type of data, but not data from any single provider. If unlimited streaming was only available from Netflix, I would have a real problem with that. Otherwise, "Binge On" is just a feature that users can turn on or off. I don't consider it a true net neutrality issue, but I do concede that it is definitely flirting with an ominous gray area that foreshadows what a prioritized Internet might look like in the future.
 
They'll want to go to Sony's website if that's the only one they can get to.

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You can't make your product crap and then expect people to want it. Especially not when they had a product they liked.

Your insistence that consumers should jump through expensive and complicated hoops, like switching providers or using VPNs, is absurd and naive. There will be a strong economic incentive for all ISPs to manipulate their traffic, and with such sweeping control of the Internet that you've given them, they'll legally be able to throttle your VPN traffic, too.

They'll be unable to. Just like china is.

I thought you said consumers would be clamoring for neutral connections? Too bad for those poor/rural/underserved communities, eh? Looks like they will only get access to filtered service from ISPs who took a lot of money from content providers to subsidize the build-out.

I'm sure they would prefer that to not having service. But that foot in the door is all they need to ultimately get everything.

Of course, this is all beside the fact that your claims of net neutrality harming infrastructure investment is supported by data that is sketchy at best, generated by "think tanks" that are funded by the telecom companies themselves.

That's a seriously biased article. But the pace of investment from a company like Google is not a good indicator of what Comcast would invest. Google does things just because... they spend a lot of money feeling out possibilities that never end up being anything. Besides, it's not that easy to forecast what broadband investment would be in the last 2 years of net neutrality if it hadn't existed.

I agree that competition and expanding broadband access is very important. Why do we have to impact the fundamental workings of the Internet to make that happen? Why can't we just keep the Internet the same and make it easier for small businesses to start new ISPs, forcing everyone in the industry to compete with lower prices and better service? (Oh, wait — that might force the monopolistic incumbents to compete, too — better not do that.)


Net Neutrality doesn't encourage your "monopolistic" incumbents to compete. It hasn't for the last 2 years. They're less monopolistic today than they were 2 years ago when net neutrality started, but that's not due to net neutrality. That's due to the continuing surge in popularity of wireless devices.

When you talk about impacting the fundamental workings of the internet, we just went back to the broadband rules of 2015. It was net neutrality that impacted the rules.

The largest ISPs and phone companies in the country will have the leverage to negotiate the most lucrative deals of all. If you're a shareholder and the company could immediately add another $500 million (or a whole lot more) to their bottom line by extorting service providers, what would you say? "No, guys, we'll get more subscribers if we stay neutral!"

Yup. Especially right now, because they will be skinned alive if they don't. You, and most of the proponents of net neutrality, act is if broadband companies can do whatever they want without consequence. Why do they not raise your rates to $500/mo then? If there is no economic pressure against them, they should do that.

This discussion reminds me of the minimum wage discussion. People don't think companies would ever pay more than the minimum, and almost seem surprised when I remind them that they do, quite often, for just about everyone, pay more than they have to - because of capitalism.

Microsoft wants to get into the WISP (wireless ISP) business? Why not throttle iOS and Apple software updates so it will take people longer to download software from their competitor, or slow down Google so people will spend more time on Bing. Then Google can retaliate by slowing down Windows updates on Google Fiber, so your preferred hardware will ultimately help determine who you need to buy your Internet connection from. Pretty cool, eh? It's all possible in your world without net neutrality.

Possible. It's also possible in my world of corporate freedom for companies to release crap products and jack up their prices. In my current world of corporate freedom, Comcast is free to raise their rates 10 fold. There's a reason they don't.

Further, your suggestion that wireless service is an adequate substitute for wired service further supports my suspicions that you don't fully understand how the Internet or its physical infrastructure works.

I'm not sure why. I don't view technology, corporations, product lines, or any of it as static. It all evolves and changes to meet consumer demand. I don't assume that the mobile wireless networks of today are the end of the technology, just like I didn't assume that wireless companies would never offer an unlimited calling plan back when none of them could afford to do so.

So you are arguing in favor of net neutrality now?

No. I think you saw my point.

Why can't we just keep the Internet the same

This is the Donald Trump mantra. Let's go back to how America used to be. I liked it in the 90s and early 2000s, can we just make that stick? Maybe Donald can get out the cra-gl and freeze everyone in place. Yes, freedom means that companies can do bad things. And they should be free to do those things and receive a swift kick in the pants by consumers (who can and will deliver it). I don't want to keep things the same, and I don't want my legislators trying to preserve the status quo. I like it when companies innovate and move forward. I like it when we get newer faster technologies, and consumers end up getting things like Binge-On from T-Mobile, even if it means prioritizing network traffic. Without that service, they don't get to stream netflix as long as they want. These are good developments.
 
Oh, that's exactly how it works. Do you actually think any of those women know what net neutrality is, and will understand why their Netflix shows start buffering? Will most of your friends and family? No, they'll just cancel Netflix and sign up for the telco's streaming service, which the cable companies will stuff ads for in their mailboxes on a daily basis, promising "no buffering, ever!". :rolleyes:

These ladies are paying for access to the Internet, and I want them to be able to use that connection how they see fit. You, and the telecom companies, don't.

They'll be unable to. Just like china is.
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Uh, no. China will start blocking VPNs in February of next year. I can't wait to jump through the same hoops that people in China do, just to have unfiltered Internet access.

They'll be doing it because of communism, we'll be doing it because of capitalism. Nice.

Net Neutrality doesn't encourage your "monopolistic" incumbents to compete. It hasn't for the last 2 years. They're less monopolistic today than they were 2 years ago when net neutrality started, but that's not due to net neutrality. That's due to the continuing surge in popularity of wireless devices.
Yep, a surging popularity in wireless devices among consumers, driven by a diverse array of online sites and services made possible by a free, open Internet.
When you talk about impacting the fundamental workings of the internet, we just went back to the broadband rules of 2015. It was net neutrality that impacted the rules.
Oh, yes, the "old broadband rules"! You're referring to the ones we had...
Yeah, those were the days.
Yup. Especially right now, because they will be skinned alive if they don't. You, and most of the proponents of net neutrality, act is if broadband companies can do whatever they want without consequence. Why do they not raise your rates to $500/mo then? If there is no economic pressure against them, they should do that.

This discussion reminds me of the minimum wage discussion. People don't think companies would ever pay more than the minimum, and almost seem surprised when I remind them that they do, quite often, for just about everyone, pay more than they have to - because of capitalism.
Manipulating quality of service is not at all the same as raising rates.

This is the Donald Trump mantra. Let's go back to how America used to be. I liked it in the 90s and early 2000s, can we just make that stick? Maybe Donald can get out the cra-gl and freeze everyone in place. Yes, freedom means that companies can do bad things. And they should be free to do those things and receive a swift kick in the pants by consumers (who can and will deliver it). I don't want to keep things the same, and I don't want my legislators trying to preserve the status quo. I like it when companies innovate and move forward. I like it when we get newer faster technologies, and consumers end up getting things like Binge-On from T-Mobile, even if it means prioritizing network traffic. Without that service, they don't get to stream netflix as long as they want. These are good developments.
I agree with you on the importance of capitalism, and I agree that consumers and the market should decide which companies succeed and fail. However, your application of capitalist ideology to the issue of net neutrality is short-sighted and naive of the importance of neutral service providers at all levels of the Internet's infrastructure.

Handing the keys of the Internet to the telecom providers gives them an absolutely insane amount of power. Why else do you think they are fighting so hard against net neutrality, and paying lobbyists millions of dollars to win over the FCC and Congress? Do you actually believe its because they want to "fund innovation", provide better service, and encourage competition in the marketplace? :lol: They want net neutrality to go away because it lets them play kingmaker and decide the winners and losers on what should be the ultimate capitalist platform: the Internet.

I am sure that, like me, you don't like it when the government tries to grab more power over businesses and our economy. We don't like it because it lets them play favorites and give themselves or their friends unfair advantages, undermining the capitalist system. Why, then, are you so eager to give corporations in one particular industry such a freakish amount of control over others? I just can't wrap my head around your perspective on this.
 
Oh, that's exactly how it works. Do you actually think any of those women know what net neutrality is, and will understand why their Netflix shows start buffering? Will most of your friends and family? No, they'll just cancel Netflix and sign up for the telco's streaming service, which the cable companies will stuff ads for in their mailboxes on a daily basis, promising "no buffering, ever!". :rolleyes:

These ladies are paying for access to the Internet, and I want them to be able to use that connection how they see fit. You, and the telecom companies, don't.

They're advertising netflix right now. They integrate netflix into their set top boxes. It makes them money. The moment one of them starts throttling netflix, they lose money, they've degraded their product.


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Uh, no. China will start blocking VPNs in February of next year. I can't wait to jump through the same hoops that people in China do, just to have unfiltered Internet access.

They'll be doing it because of communism, we'll be doing it because of capitalism. Nice.

We won't be. China is already trying to block VPNs. It's not a winning strategy. Blocking people from information just ends up getting you run over.

Yep, a surging popularity in wireless devices among consumers, driven by a diverse array of online sites and services made possible by a free, open Internet.

...prior to net neutrality.

Oh, yes, the "old broadband rules"! You're referring to the ones we had...

The article doesn't actually say that. Also, I didn't say it wouldn't happen. In fact, I think it will happen. Someone (or multiple ISPs) will almost certainly try it. They'll fail though. Maybe not on the kind of timescale you'd like to see. Maybe not within months. But within a few years it will fail where it's tried. How can I be so sure? Because demand. It's a losing business strategy, especially in an era where so much information is available.

Yeah, those were the days.

It doesn't go well for those companies. It is especially dangerous for them to do it now. Maybe in a few years, when the furor has died down, it would be less risky to try it. But they will be discovered (quickly, by people who are looking for it) and their competitors will make them pay.


Manipulating quality of service is not at all the same as raising rates.

It's exactly the same thing. I want an orange, that'll be $1. I want to pay 50 cents. That'll get you half an orange. What if I pay 70 cents? That'll get you this older orange.

I agree with you on the importance of capitalism, and I agree that consumers and the market should decide which companies succeed and fail. However, your application of capitalist ideology to the issue of net neutrality is short-sighted and naive of the importance of neutral service providers at all levels of the Internet's infrastructure.

You've taken a liking to calling my view short-sighted. I think I'm playing a significantly longer game here than net neutrality. I'm looking at the speed of progress over a 5-year span. I'm watching the entire industry re-invent itself in, not generations, but a few years. This isn't the 70s, we're not waiting 10 years for the next tech development. The iphone was 2007. In 2007, the concept of a phone with an internet connection was bonkers. Now T-Mobile is advertising watching TV endlessly over your phone's internet connection, which can be ported straight to your TV! That's 10 years. Imagine what is coming in the next 5. I'm not trying to make sure that there are no bumps along the road. To do so is impossible. I'm trying to make sure that money flows quickly and easily into this industry without totally unnecessary stagnating rules. Rules that might very well end up preventing progress, such as the Binge On ad that I gave you, because it prioritizes network traffic over other network traffic.

Handing the keys of the Internet to the telecom providers gives them an absolutely insane amount of power. Why else do you think they are fighting so hard against net neutrality, and paying lobbyists millions of dollars to win over the FCC and Congress? Do you actually believe its because they want to "fund innovation", provide better service, and encourage competition in the marketplace? :lol: They want net neutrality to go away because it lets them play kingmaker and decide the winners and losers on what should be the ultimate capitalist platform: the Internet.

I am sure that, like me, you don't like it when the government tries to grab more power over businesses and our economy. We don't like it because it lets them play favorites and give themselves or their friends unfair advantages, undermining the capitalist system. Why, then, are you so eager to give corporations in one particular industry such a freakish amount of control over others? I just can't wrap my head around your perspective on this.

Because it's not force. You're talking about using guns to control people. This is not easily undone, and the ramifications are large, and moral. Corporations are not using guns, they cannot use force. All that they can do is try to sell something to willing consumers. It is a voluntary exchange.

Your own article said that ISP competition eliminates throttling. Why then are you not advocating for what we all really want, which is more ISP competition? I see the mobile broadband companies coming on fast when it comes to competition to wired ISPs. But regardless, why would you advocate for additional hoops to entering the ISP market instead of advocating for anything and everything that encourages competition. Do you think that Net Neutrality encourages someone to compete against Comcast? It makes it harder. The real solution to all of this is more choice, not less. Then you'll start seeing more of a supermarket of choices and get less frustrated with the speed of competition.
 
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They're advertising netflix right now. They integrate netflix into their set top boxes. It makes them money. The moment one of them starts throttling netflix, they lose money, they've degraded their product.

Not if they've got an alternative to offer. "I'm sorry, Netflix costs an extra $20 a month. But you can have TimeWarnerFlox for only $5 a month with our monthly subscription, and it's super double extra dooper better than Netflix! Pinky promise!"

We won't be. China is already trying to block VPNs. It's not a winning strategy. Blocking people from information just ends up getting you run over.

Heh. Bless you and your optimism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia

The Pirate Bay is blocked in Australia. We have to use mirrors (which are frequently added to the list) or some pretty technically tricky workarounds in order to access it. It's not trivial. It's also quite annoying. I have friends who are less tech savvy than I that simply don't use it any more. They spend money on Netflix and cable TV.

Which I rather suspect was exactly the outcome the companies behind the lobbyists were going for.

The iphone was 2007. In 2007, the concept of a phone with an internet connection was bonkers.

It actually wasn't. i-mode was available in Japan and other countries in the early 2000s, and Blackberries were well before the iPhone. The iPhone did not introduce the concept of an internet connected phone, that was well established by 2007. What the iPhone did was introduce a device that wasn't clunky as 🤬 when accessing the net.

Now T-Mobile is advertising watching TV endlessly over your phone's internet connection, which can be ported straight to your TV! That's 10 years. Imagine what is coming in the next 5. I'm not trying to make sure that there are no bumps along the road. To do so is impossible. I'm trying to make sure that money flows quickly and easily into this industry without totally unnecessary stagnating rules. Rules that might very well end up preventing progress, such as the Binge On ad that I gave you, because it prioritizes network traffic over other network traffic.

Corporations are not using guns, they cannot use force. All that they can do is try to sell something to willing consumers. It is a voluntary exchange.

To a certain extent. However it changes when you start talking about vital services. A hospital is not something that is selling it's services to willing consumers, it's selling to consumers that require their services, possibly at any cost they care to name. To what extent is the internet so engrained in our society that it's like that now, and how much more so will it become in the future?

One can totally disconnect from the internet today, and while it is not strictly vital for life you are at an enormous disadvantage compared to those people that have it in almost all walks of life. I would argue more so than people with and without telephones fifty years ago.
 
Not if they've got an alternative to offer. "I'm sorry, Netflix costs an extra $20 a month. But you can have TimeWarnerFlox for only $5 a month with our monthly subscription, and it's super double extra dooper better than Netflix! Pinky promise!"

TimeWarnerFlox doesn't look good on the fliers. A big red Netflix logo gets attention, that's why it's there.

The Pirate Bay is blocked in Australia.

It can be had. It can't be stopped.

They spend money on Netflix and cable TV.

Which I rather suspect was exactly the outcome the companies behind the lobbyists were going for.

As they should be. Entertainment isn't free. Pirate Bay isn't a legitimate alternative to actually participating in commerce.

It actually wasn't. i-mode was available in Japan and other countries in the early 2000s, and Blackberries were well before the iPhone. The iPhone did not introduce the concept of an internet connected phone, that was well established by 2007. What the iPhone did was introduce a device that wasn't clunky as 🤬 when accessing the net.

I remember. It was still bonkers. High end stuff had it, corporate phones like Blackberries had it. But it was mostly email. We're not talking broadband for the masses here, it was phone calls and text messages for almost everyone, and the occasional email push for suits.

That's why I brought it up, because it was the leading edge of the technology.

To a certain extent. However it changes when you start talking about vital services.

Grocery store.

A hospital is not something that is selling it's services to willing consumers, it's selling to consumers that require their services, possibly at any cost they care to name.

Insurance.

To what extent is the internet so engrained in our society that it's like that now, and how much more so will it become in the future?

That doesn't fundamentally change it.
 
Your own article said that ISP competition eliminates throttling. Why then are you not advocating for what we all really want, which is more ISP competition? I see the mobile broadband companies coming on fast when it comes to competition to wired ISPs. But regardless, why would you advocate for additional hoops to entering the ISP market instead of advocating for anything and everything that encourages competition. Do you think that Net Neutrality encourages someone to compete against Comcast? It makes it harder. The real solution to all of this is more choice, not less. Then you'll start seeing more of a supermarket of choices and get less frustrated with the speed of competition.
If you haven't seen my advocation for more competition among ISPs in this debate, you must not be reading my posts. I rest my case.
 
If you haven't seen my advocation for more competition among ISPs in this debate, you must not be reading my posts. I rest my case.

I re-read them all. This was the best I could find.

I agree that competition and expanding broadband access is very important. Why do we have to impact the fundamental workings of the Internet to make that happen? Why can't we just keep the Internet the same and make it easier for small businesses to start new ISPs, forcing everyone in the industry to compete with lower prices and better service?

This is not what I would have recognized as "advocating for what we all really want, which is more ISP competition". I saw that as advocating for regulation and expressing some hope that we can do that in a way that doesn't squash newcomers.

Fundamentally, what this boils down to, is a mistrust of capitalism - at least in this market. It's the same notion that @Imari brought forth when he talked about not trusting vital services to corporations (which we do), and where he theorized that desperate people will pay any amount (that's what insurance policies are for). Not to pick on him too much, he's been on a roll here with great posts in the opinions forum. I enjoy reading his posts, and I enjoy reading yours.

You seem to think that ISPs have us over a barrel and can just demand whatever they want unless the government steps in. That's the analogy to healthcare, and it's the analogy to "vital services". People think capitalism falls down when we need it the most, and of course it isn't true. The internet got us here without net neutrality.

All you have to do to convince yourself that ISPs do not have us over a barrel is to ask yourself why they don't charge another dollar for their service this very moment. They're charging the optimal amount, the most money they can charge without losing money. You don't think that consumers have power in this market, but prices are where they are specifically because of consumer power. Capitalism is scary, corporations can ruin their product and charge too much money, and all you have to rely on is the hope that consumers will go elsewhere. It might take a little time, but that is exactly what happens.
 
Fundamentally, what this boils down to, is a mistrust of capitalism - at least in this market. It's the same notion that @Imari brought forth when he talked about not trusting vital services to corporations (which we do), and where he theorized that desperate people will pay any amount (that's what insurance policies are for).

You seem to think that ISPs have us over a barrel and can just demand whatever they want unless the government steps in. That's the analogy to healthcare, and it's the analogy to "vital services". People think capitalism falls down when we need it the most, and of course it isn't true. The internet got us here without net neutrality.

All you have to do to convince yourself that ISPs do not have us over a barrel is to ask yourself why they don't charge another dollar for their service this very moment.

I dont really have a weapon for this battle, as with anything political, this has been packaged in a way that it can benefit or destroy consumers power's. Just depends on your affiliation, i guess.

However i just want to point out, a flawed logic.

What i get from your post is that, the government needs not further expand control over the net by placing "net nutrality" regulations. That there was no problem 2 years ago before it was in place.

That to me is like saying the constitution was fine 200 years ago there was no need to make any amendments, or add to it.

Just because there was no net neutrality before doesnt mean it was never needed.

As far as health care, that was funded by insurance lobbyists, it was never about the people. That is a bad analogy and cant be used in this context. The wool was pulled over everyone's eyes, "free healthcare", was what everyone was on about, back then. Of course that never happened. Not even remotely.

And lastly, i don't know about everyone else here but Netflix has went from $8 bucks a month to $15 a month, in 3 different announcements, over the course of the last 4 months. They are taking advantage of this already.

I chopped, hulu, and direct tv last month, Netflix is next.

Edit.. words
 
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What i get from your post is that, the government needs not further expand control over the net by placing "net nutrality" regulations. That there was no problem 2 years ago before it was in place.

That to me is like saying the constitution was fine 200 years ago there was no need to make any amendments, or add to it.

Just because there was no net neutrality before doesnt mean it was never needed.

You'd have to demonstrate a need to amend the constitution to support an argument for making such an amendment. You'd have to show that slavery is wrong, for example, and that it should be abolished.

What needs to be shown to support net neutrality regulations is that people are being wronged, and that those people are lacking protection from the government.
 
And lastly, i don't know about everyone else here but Netflix has went from $8 bucks a month to $15 a month, in 3 different announcements, over the course of the last 4 months. They are taking advantage of this already.

I chopped, hulu, and direct tv last month, Netflix is next.
If enough people have done/will do the same as you, isn't that exactly the sort of economic pressure required to keep prices in check?

I do wonder about something that I haven't seen mentioned. It may not have been mentioned because it's stupid thought though, so pardon my ignorant self.

No, I wouldn't have any power to stop @Liquid's scenario — unless I was willing to pay more than Sony (ha!) to persuade the ISP to prioritize GTPlanet's traffic instead. This essentially becomes a bidding war, and the only winner is the ISP.
Sounds like something that would create a lot of demand for unfiltered access.
Unfiltered access as we know it.

The premise is that the consumers that view GTPlanet as a desirable site would seek out a deal that was unfiltered or favourably filtered? Basic supply/demand?

Any reason why Sony wouldn't buy GTPlanet, along with a whole host of other sites that were cheap or "cheap" but with a dedicated following of a decent size, then negotiate with the ISP to get a better deal because the ISP could expect to make more money from the increased signups? The acquired sites could be made exclusive, and put behind a paywall brought down only by signing up with the chosen ISP. If any site remotely in demand was immediately snapped up by a Sony or equivalent, wouldn't we see sites being part of a clumping into bigger and bigger conglomerates, with gradually fewer and fewer providers in play as they die or are merged? Is there anything to stop there ultimately being a monopoly?

If pushed, people could do without Netflix, etc, but if information is power, and the internet is the most valued source of information, a mass loss of internet would be a massive loss of power.
 
And lastly, i don't know about everyone else here but Netflix has went from $8 bucks a month to $15 a month, in 3 different announcements, over the course of the last 4 months. They are taking advantage of this already.
All of that was before the bill was passed and Netflix gave warning of a price increase, they didn't just say, hey give us more money today!
Just like PSN when they raised the price.

It's all on the consumer to choose...

I pay for Netflix, Hulu, PSN and Prime.
I don't have cable, I do have Comcast internet, still cheaper than some cable TV packages.

Doubt you care but I never even use any of them due to my new job, happy family, happy life though. ;)
 
What is the Republican argument in favor of getting rid of Net Neutrality? I think this is a really stupid thing to repeal. I, too, am one of those who just buy a cable internet connection and I get all my TV and movies through services like Hulu or VUDU.
 
I dont really have a weapon for this battle, as with anything political, this has been packaged in a way that it can benefit or destroy consumers power's. Just depends on your affiliation, i guess.

However i just want to point out, a flawed logic.

What i get from your post is that, the government needs not further expand control over the net by placing "net nutrality" regulations. That there was no problem 2 years ago before it was in place.

That to me is like saying the constitution was fine 200 years ago there was no need to make any amendments, or add to it.

Just because there was no net neutrality before doesnt mean it was never needed.

As far as health care, that was funded by insurance lobbyists, it was never about the people. That is a bad analogy and cant be used in this context. The wool was pulled over everyone's eyes, "free healthcare", was what everyone was on about, back then. Of course that never happened. Not even remotely.

And lastly, i don't know about everyone else here but Netflix has went from $8 bucks a month to $15 a month, in 3 different announcements, over the course of the last 4 months. They are taking advantage of this already.

I chopped, hulu, and direct tv last month, Netflix is next.

Edit.. words
You've supplied your own answer. If it's too expensive or not enough value, don't pay for it. I had satellite service about 15 years ago but thought it was too expensive and dropped it when a friend of mine came up with a scheme to piggyback on his satellite service for less money. Did that for a few years and then decided that wasn't worth it either and put up an HD aeriel in the attic and now I have about 30 channels free plus the internet. I rarely watch anything on tv except for sports anyway. I've never subscribed to a large internet provider preferring to stick with my regional ISP and I've been with them for 22 years. Price is about the same, connection is still DSL although they are upgrading the local transmission lines and the service is absolutely top notch. I once had my modem go down on a Sunday night and I went down to their office and they gave me a new one out the back door after diagnosing the issue over the phone! Once they offered home phone service I dropped my landline as well. Had I stuck with my original cable service and home phone I'd probably be about $10K poorer right now.
 
All of that was before the bill was passed

Bill? No bill. No bill to implement "net neutrality" and no bill to remove it.

What is the Republican argument in favor of getting rid of Net Neutrality? I think this is a really stupid thing to repeal.

Republican? Why must everything be one party or the other? You think it makes more sense to classify ISPs as common carriers under the 1930s regulation (common carrier is a term that is meant to invoke thoughts of a postal worker on horseback)?
 
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Republican? Why must everything be one party or the other?

That was my first thought as well. I guess they are the majority at the moment so there is that, more so it probably has to do with the media and most positively social media.

Of course we all know the dems would never do anything in their own best interest and always have the people in mind.
 
Most of them don't want any form of government telling them what to do. Also a good majority of the state identifies as conservative.

I'd expect something like this bill coming out of California, Oregon, or Washington before Montana.
They've also had a Democrat for Governor for more than 13 years and a Democrat Senator for more than 11 years. Not sure how it has anything to do with the make up of Montana and how most of the population is when we're talking about an executive order from a Democrat governor in a supposedly conservative state.
 
I think that rural areas with the fewest ISP choices are the most likely to be messed with by ISPs.
Aren't the fears people are having regarding the loss of neutrality supposed to be more over-arching, though?

I can get on board with providers not offering the same services for the same rates in rural areas, and even say it's justified, as it's more difficult to provide and maintain service over large areas with fewer paying customers.

But to think that providers would 🤬 with these customers in the way people are concerned about, and the sort of malice necessary to do so--assuming there's a foreseeable risk of this--should I not be taking the wait-and-see approach I am now?
 
They've also had a Democrat for Governor for more than 13 years and a Democrat Senator for more than 11 years. Not sure how it has anything to do with the make up of Montana and how most of the population is when we're talking about an executive order from a Democrat governor in a supposedly conservative state.

Net neutrality is more of a liberal idea than a conservative one, and it's really not a libertarian one. Given how Montana's population leans mostly on the conservative side of the spectrum and many people hold libertarian ideas, the order just surprises me. That's all, there's no ulterior motive with my post.
 
Net neutrality is more of a liberal idea than a conservative one, and it's really not a libertarian one. Given how Montana's population leans mostly on the conservative side of the spectrum and many people hold libertarian ideas, the order just surprises me. That's all, there's no ulterior motive with my post.
As I said, it was an executive order by a single person, and a Democrat governor at that. I'm not sure how this reflects the will of the poeple or how it can be generalized in any way to the average Montanon's political leanings. It would be like Trump signing and executive order and someone saying, "Oh I didn't realize that Americans felt that way".
 
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