Tuner Trash Talk

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M5Power
Incidentally, when I make the '4-cylinder vs muscle car' comparison in my head, why do I think I'm making a Honda Civic sedan vs Plymouth Barracuda Hemi comparison? It's irrational.

I make that exact comparison :scared: . Up until a little while ago my outlook on muscle cars ad imports was very different. When the fast and the furious was first released and further back still when the 'import revolution' just began i would see cars with wings and they would turn my head. But after i bought my first car which just so happened to be some form of american muscle (mixed opinions) an 86 Camaro Z28, my outlook did a 180. The rumble of the throaty v8 approaching 5000RPM was the most beautiiful sound i had ever heard. A lot of my friends would also tell me to take on some of the civics and such and i would just take that as an insult. While i stil had my car the most personally satisfying opponent i ever had was a '92 Lexus SC400. And no it wasnt a street race it was on a long deserted strip by the dock/train station meeting point.

Anywasy, all good things come to an end. I had just equipped my Camaro with a new set of headers when i got an offer for the camaro and i couldnt refuse. I sold it the very next day. This is around the time when i first started talking to cano over here and he started preaching on about the legendary muscle cars. Now, I was just beginning to get comfortable into my early 80's late 70's era of car when cano comes around and slaps me with the 60's. After this...scuffle....my interest for these cars has grown not to mention my dad's liking into the cars that he was driving around regularly when he first hit Canada.

On to the topic. Ever since I've been at gtp there has been some sort of slandering one side to the other about imports vs. american, ricers, v8's. Personally, if the vehicle performs good, looks good (to an extent) its fine for me. What i just said is bound to be inferred by others in VERY different ways. My idead of nice may be an extravagent body kit or a earth-shaking 4 inch tip (i do perfer the second). This is going to go on for a very long time. Me having owned not 1 but 3 camaro's hasnt changed my outlook on imports to an extreme. I have driven a couple WRX's and i must admit i would own one of those over the Camaro IF I COULD AFFORD ONE. This brings me to my next point.

When i bought that first 86 z28, i bought it for 4000CDN. With about a grand i spruced it up a bit and had it running great. Added another grand and had it running borderline 300HP. Now i am unsure but i believe the WRX runs a 220 Turbo charged. Although i was being SCHOOLED through the gears by these WRX's, i could still keep up and to me that was an achievment on its own for 6000$. Being able to take on a 30000$+ car. To me my vehicle was beautiful but then again almost any true nut of a driver would consider THEIR vehicle beautiful.
To me it did not matter what others thought of my car. My car was egged 3 times and one time they slipped a piece of cardboard reading get your ****ing american ****box out of here. Funny thing is the guy who put it there drove his mom's jag....which was powered by a rebuilt ford motor :lol: .

To end it off, IGNORANCE is probably the largest factor in all these arguments. Ignorance BOTH ways.

My two cents.

:)
 
F.Zamataki
....and you can only make motors so big.

Do you have any idea how big a marine diesel can get? My dad's office building utilizes one to generate their entire building. It's roughly the size of a city bus. Now if only you could put it on four wheels..........hmmmmm.

And what you said about boost is true. But boost will only take a measely 4 banger so far. Now, a 540ci Blown Nitro-Methane engine, will get you to 300mph in a quarter mile.
 
F.Zamataki
its like comparing harleys with hayabusas........its no competition.


Well, as far as I know harleys aren't in roadracing, yet......but at this years Gator Nationals *the granddaddy of all Drag Racing events* the Harleys pwnd all. It was awesome. Hearing the rumbling Harley drown out the whining import motor....man i can't wait till next year! One thing every man should do before he dies: Stand at the fence when a Top Fuel dragster screams down the quarter mile making your heart stop for a brief moment as it passes in a neck snapping blur of fire and earthshaking rumble. :drool:
 
*bump it up*
I was kinda hoping to hear why trucks making power in the lower RPM ranges was a "bad" thing.
 
87chevy
Do you have any idea how big a marine diesel can get? My dad's office building utilizes one to generate their entire building. It's roughly the size of a city bus. Now if only you could put it on four wheels..........hmmmmm.

And what you said about boost is true. But boost will only take a measely 4 banger so far. Now, a 540ci Blown Nitro-Methane engine, will get you to 300mph in a quarter mile.

smart...i obviously didnt know that..... ok let me rephrase...you can only make a motor to fit a car so big, before you start making gigantic cars that are heavy and defeat the purpose of a powerful engine.....cuz we all know that a motor is running in its prime when it dosent have much weight to pull. you can only make a CAR engine so big, then you can just boost it, or boost it and nitro it and stick a blower on top for good measure.....its all been done
 
huh...you said a R23 skyline had a rb26dett?....wrong...!
The R34 had the Rb26dett
The R33 had the Rb25dett
And the R32...well Old toshiba motor
 
Ok, now time for some "Off topic" chat:

On a recent drag contest a green Audi 80 showed up.
Original rims, skirts, everythng. It rolled up to the start.
The lights turned green and the old green Audi, with aerodynamics like a snowplow
just flew away like it was shot out of a cannon. The results showed up on the board:

10,076 and 239,15 km/h!!!
With a engine block from a diesel-Transporter and custom cylinders you can't say that the L6 engine is ordered from a tuning-catalog.
 
Getting an old (yeah, mid 60s, early 70s) muscle car to handle like an import is an easier feat than you might imagine. hell, you can even keep many, MAANY stock suspension pieces and just add some stuff, wich, indeed isnt cheap, but it aint as expensive as you might think. And im not getting into the really exclussive stuff, because the asking price for some muscle cars today is idiotic. a restored hemi cuda is a few bucks shy of 50, 60k, that is ridiculous. Assuming you get to work with a car that has been with you for quite a while and you dont have to pay big bucks to get one, you can have a WAY better performer than the WRX, that has been the reference car in here, for the 30k+ one costs. you'd have to get some bucks into the car to make it HANDLE like, say, a 70 Coronet. dont even think about chasing it on a straight. maybe you'll outrun it on a turn because your car is 35 years more advanced than the coronet is and has 4wd (imagine a coronet with 4wd! oh dear!), but with some suspension changes, it will be, VERY, very close, almost kissing your plastic wing. Wait up when you get to the exit and I want to see what that 383 or 440 will do with you (:
oh, and modded imports chow more gas than I care to say. they are right there with a stock V8, or worse.

Cano

but then again, Im aso realizing that we are speaking to a clueless man, so maybe I have to stop saying all this.
 
for times on cars, im sure all of you know it can vary. ive seen stis do high 12s to mid 13s stock. on the 300ft skidpad, ive read .88g, but ive also read .95g. ive also seen cobras do high 12s, to mid 13s, with varying skidpad numbers.

you can make any car handle good, or go fast, but some cars are just going to be easier to tune in certain areas. like you can make a muscle car handle good, but its gonna take more work to do that compared to a bmw, or a similar car with similar suspensions. todays suspension design is just superior to the old one. engine design matters when it comes to how much power it can get out of its given displacement, and bigger engines are usually gonna be easier to get more power out of. for turbo engines in modern cars, turbo lag is barely there, people seem to make it seem worse than it is.
 
Straight up though, as i said before, ignorance plays a huge role in peoples outlooks on muscle cars. Nowadays, if i see an old chevelle or baracuda (mind you its VERY rare here) i will turn my head as far as possible and watch it til its out of sight. I dont give that much attention to lets say an sl 500 or even a viper on the streets of vancouver anymore. Only thing is that these cars were gems in their day and they just became more......gemmy......as time passed.


However, not everything is gungho with muscle cars. If i had 50 grand to purchase a car i would purchase an impreza STi over any muscle car. The reason for this is because the muscle car would be very rare and and i would be very afraid to drive it through the city in fear of a fender bender or wose :sick:. The STi would just be the more intelligent route of action.
 
am I the only weirdo that would use a muscle car as a daily driver and trash it like it is a VW bug with 500 hp? am I really that weird? I mean, if I had a muscle car I would sum up miles on it just for the freaking pleasure of driving the hell out of it. I would mind at all a fender bender, it would be like "a scratch of everyday battle" and the stuff would go on and on. I would REALLY wear it =D like my shoes.
 
Div is back
huh...you said a R23 skyline had a rb26dett?....wrong...!
The R34 had the Rb26dett
The R33 had the Rb25dett
And the R32...well Old toshiba motor
WTF? are you on crack? R32, R33 and R34 GTRs all have RB26DETTs

Lower models had smaller engines
RB20E
RB20DE
RB20DET
RB25DE
RB25DET
then there are various RB30 varriants but the GTR from the 32 on have had RB26DETTs
 
Gil
True enough. But I notice that you don't include the figures for a more modern 'Vette. Is that because it's got comparable performance, and still costs less, with less hi-tech crap to go wrong with it?
More high tech crap to go wrong isn't necessarily true, the skyline even with its (still state of the art despite it's age) technology is still very reliable. The cost is realtive also, true they are expensive here, but try importing a US only car to japan and see how much you would have to pay.

Gil
Further I can get 'Vette serviced pretty easily here in Leavenworth county Kansas. Can you say the same for a Skyline?
Yes. A skyline is no different form many of the other cars Nissan has produced, many parts are shared by it's US counterparts (300ZX 240SX etc.) Any mechanic with 1/2 a brain can service them.

Gil
well is "unobtainium" worth it?
To some people, yes it is :)


All of this debating is pointless, all cars have strong and weak points, (Yes even the allmighty GTR has it's flaws :crazy:) and comparing a 4 cylinder honda civic to a V8 mustang or vette is beyond stupid. Neither side is going to give in so whats the point? Who cares where it came from, how many cylinders it has, how buch better it is at something than another car, in the end they are all basically the same thing. I mean sure we all have favorites but why cant you all just enjoy them without getting your panties in a knot.
 
skylineGTR_guy
All of this debating is pointless, all cars have strong and weak points, (Yes even the allmighty GTR has it's flaws :crazy:) and comparing a 4 cylinder honda civic to a V8 mustang or vette is beyond stupid. Neither side is going to give in so whats the point? Who cares where it came from, how many cylinders it has, how buch better it is at something than another car, in the end they are all basically the same thing. I mean sure we all have favorites but why cant you all just enjoy them without getting your panties in a knot.

Because we were enjoying the debate.:lol:
I have also acknowledged that there are plenty of hot fours out there that I wouldn't mind having in my garage. (If you're gonna jump in the bidness of "grown folks" you need to pay attention to the whole conversation).
I'm also a huge skyline fan. I was just pointing out, that here in the "stix" cars like a Vette are more practical than a skyline.
I also pointed out that big V-8's are not "so over" they also have a place in the "automotive landscape".
Your response leads me to believe that you haven't read the whole thread. Or you have chosen to ignore quite a bit of what I've had to say.

So, did you read the whole thread? or were you ignoring me? :lol:
 
F.Zamataki
have you seen the Head to Head article with the new supercharged stang and the subaru wrx sti? it was in HOT ROD magazine, and even those guys admit the defeat...the subaru and the stand are equal in all aspects of speed, yet the scoob has half the displacement, 3/4's of the gas guzzling.

04 WRX STi 18 mpg / 24 mpg

04 Mustang Cobra Manual: 17 mpg / 24 mpg

You lose.

skylineGTR_guy


5-liter four-cylinder

:ouch:
 
the cobra did 16 mpg city, 23 highway from car and driver. depends on how you drive, and where you drive. not all cars are gonna be tested on the exact same road, and not all cars are gonna be driven the exact same way. this can be a rough estimate of how good the gas mileage is, but its how you drive that counts the most. some cars will get a lot better gas mileage than cars that are said to have similar gas mileage, when you drive the way you do on the same road.
 
Gil
Because we were enjoying the debate.:lol:
I didn't mean to infer that the debate is not a good one, maybee some people will see the light and grow to appreciate all types of cars. What I meant to say is that the debate is pointless when you have two opposing sides who refuse to budge and hate other cars for the stupid reasons I listed above.

Gil
I have also acknowledged that there are plenty of hot fours out there that I wouldn't mind having in my garage. (If you're gonna jump in the bidness of "grown folks" you need to pay attention to the whole conversation).
Actually I did pay attention to the whole conversation, and if you would notice, I'm not taking sides, I was just letting you know things about the GTR.

Gil
I'm also a huge skyline fan. I was just pointing out, that here in the "stix" cars like a Vette are more practical than a skyline.
Here in the states, yes, I'm just saying that they can be serviced by anyone and that the fact that it's not readily available here doesn't make it any harder to have serviced. Granted some mechanics may be reluctant to mess with it, but in the end it's really not all that different. AS I said If you were to take a US car to japan you waould face the same argument.

Gil
I also pointed out that big V-8's are not "so over" they also have a place in the "automotive landscape".
I never debated that fact, I have great respect for all cars, and you are absolutley right, the V8 does and always will have a place in the automotive landscape, but so do other engines. I'd be more than happy to have a rumbling V8 in my garage (I just love the sound produced by those engines!) right next to my skyline. Just becasue I prefer the GTR over other cars doesn't mean I have any less respect for them.

Gil
Your response leads me to believe that you haven't read the whole thread. Or you have chosen to ignore quite a bit of what I've had to say.
I'm agreeing with what you have to say about the V8 and I'm also agreeing with the fact that some smaller displacement cars can perform equally, I'm really neutral in this debate, as I've said, I like both sides.

Gil
So, did you read the whole thread? or were you ignoring me? :lol:
Ignoring you with regards to what exactly? I'm confused where you think I was disagreeing with anything you said other than the issue about servicing the skyline? Did you have a point directed towards me that I might have missed and you want me to answer? As I said, every type of car has strong and weak points, no one car "has it all" although most people would like to think that, it is nothing more than refusal to acknowledge the truth.
 
This was posted by RazorGTR on the AF board, just thought I'd share it (no this doesn't mean I'm taking sides)


A brief history of myself in the car scene.
Being American and growing up in the V8 scene, I've always owned V8 powered cars. The list is long but the short version of some of the more popular cars were, 1969 Chevelle SS, 72 Stingray, 71 Camaro Z28, 78 Camaro Z28, and 79 Trans AM. I've always been in the belief there was no replacement for displacement. I've also drag raced for 12 years.

When I first saw a Skyline I didn't know what the hell it was. I actually quite like the shape, so popped into a local importer who always seemed to have quite a few of these cars. I got my first education on them, and was taken out in a 1991 R32 GTS-t. I couldn't believe a car that was of this size with only a 2 litre engine in it could perform the way it did. So I bought a GTS ( non turbo version) right there as I couldn't afford the cash layout for the turbo car.
I grew from there and since I've owned a 1991 GTS-t and now a 1992 GTR.

What really impresses me though is the technology of these cars, and how old they are (R32's). It is hard to understand unless you've owned one, driven or have been in one. While the GTR is the pinnicle, still the other turbo models are quite impressive for what they are. At least in New Zealand at the time these cars are cheap as chips and basiclly compared to most other countries they still are. As a quick example my GTR could be had for @$16,000 USD.

The GTR is a techno monster. Way a head of its time or it was. Handling is far better than 99% of the cars on the market. While others will argue, I've driven Porsche's, a Viper RT/10, various Vette's, Camaro's, Trans Am's, Mustangs, and one Ferrari 308GT all of comprable year to my GTR. The others here in New Zealand are way over rated for the price you pay.

While the Skyline isn't the end all car for what it is, and what it can do is amazing. The ability to squeeze emense power coupled with the ability to put it to the ground and good handling makes for a wicked package.

Interior wise again it is of nothing like anything most will ever sit in. The seating position is as close to perfect for a road as your going to get. The GTR has seats that the only real upgrade would be like a bride seat. The responds so well to commands without giving you negative feed back, even when pushed. It is far more than a straight line point and squirt vehicle. When you begin to squeeze more power out of it you can use it vertially anywhere on the road/circuit. It doesn't try and kill you for thinking about, can I put my foot down in the wet? Hell yes you can. You can be agressive in corners and the stopping power is again amazing.

Sure there are better cars out there but you will pay a heavy premium in price to out achive it. In the production car world other manufacturers are just catching up to something that is 15 years old now. Unlike the playstation games, the GTR behaves much better and in real life one of the better looking cars in my opinion.




*my commentary* now also keep in mind that the skyline was undefeated for 3 straight YEARS in group N racing. It was also considered UNDEFEATABLE in japanese racing and thus led to the formation of group A racing, because everyone else thought it was too tough to beat. See in japan, the skyline is the vette, stang, whatever american car you idolize. The same passion die hard american V8 fans have for their cars and their engines, japanese people have for their cars. It's all about the love of cars, not how many cylinders it has or who made it. Just love the cars!

Ok now one question I would like to make, not to throw dirt or take sides, as I said I like all cars so I want to learn somehting, maybee you can teach me. Anyway in the JGTC races all cars are restricted to roughly the same horsepower (300 in the GT300 and 500 in the GT500) NO in those races are the usuall skylines, NSX's, Supras, etc. But there are also a few Vipers, vettes and ferraris, so why is it that the vipers, vettes and ferraris never win when they are equall in power to their japanese counterparts? As I said this isn't meant to sling mud, I just want to konw if anybody knows why that is? Gil?
 
skylineGTR_guy
Did you even bother to read the article? it clearly says 4.8 liter four cylinder
Is my sarcasm detector broken? Because that's a whopping 4% difference in displacement between a 5.0 and a 4.8-litre engine. The point is, it's no 4000 hp 1.8-litre Acura engine in there. It's an impressive car, yes, but it's not small-displacement by any means.
 
neon_duke
Is my sarcasm detector broken? Because that's a whopping 4% difference in displacement between a 5.0 and a 4.8-litre engine. The point is, it's no 4000 hp 1.8-litre Acura engine in there. It's an impressive car, yes, but it's not small-displacement by any means.
He said 4 cylinder, he made no limit on the amount of displacement :p As for that comment, I was up way to late last night and misread his post, all I read was 5 and cylinder lol, so I thouhgt he messed up, my bad :lol:
 
SkylineGTRguy You're not F. Zamataki He is the one that said the V-8 is "so over". I'm enjoying the debate because usually, I'm better at "picking my battles."
I'm not likely to get my grubby paws on a Skyline. I've given up the whole "self service" auto mechanics thing when I tried to change my own oil on a 1982 Sentra, and couldn't find the oil filter, then I couldn't get to it once I did find it.:lol:
So the ability to get a car serviced is very important to me.
AS a kid, I could do my own maintenance on my 1962 Thunderbird and it was WALL-TO-WALL 390cid V-8. AND I could get to my Oil filter from the TOP of the engine.
I still think the Skyline is very cool. But, I want no turbocharged cars in my dream garage. They require too much "care and feeding".

And I'm still waiting for my answer on the V-8's in trucks.
 
Gil
SkylineGTRguy You're not F. Zamataki He is the one that said the V-8 is "so over". I'm enjoying the debate because usually, I'm better at "picking my battles."
I'm not likely to get my grubby paws on a Skyline. I've given up the whole "self service" auto mechanics thing when I tried to change my own oil on a 1982 Sentra, and couldn't find the oil filter, then I couldn't get to it once I did find it.:lol:
So the ability to get a car serviced is very important to me.
AS a kid, I could do my own maintenance on my 1962 Thunderbird and it was WALL-TO-WALL 390cid V-8. AND I could get to my Oil filter from the TOP of the engine.
I still think the Skyline is very cool. But, I want no turbocharged cars in my dream garage. They require too much "care and feeding".

And I'm still waiting for my answer on the V-8's in trucks.
I mistook your question as being refered to me :lol: Yeah sometimes your right though, there just isn't enough room to get to what you need to.

Any help with my JGTC question though?
 
Well, until internal combustion engines are completely outlawed or gone the way of the DoDo, there will allways be a more powerful V-8 than the most powerful I-4. 4,000 HP is impressive for a 4 banger, of course it's a 4.8L 4 banger, but still impressive. But the Top Fuel dragsters are at like 7 to 8 thousand hp or more. And they will only get more powerful.
 
skylineGTR_guy: Factory support. Pure and simple.

There are of course two replacments for displacement - forced induction and revs. However, and this is something few fanboys get, all three have their place. In Japan you're taxed according to displacement, so small displacement, free-revving engines with turbochargers (or turbo and superchargers, if you're mad enough to own a 1.0 Micra/March SuperTurbo) make more sense - who wants to pay extra for the same power from a larger engine. Then you have weight/space considerations - how would a Scooby/Evo handle with a 300hp 4 litre V8 up front? Like Rafael Felipe Scheidt.

But larger engines deliver more low-down grunt - good for automatics which, correct me if I'm wrong, are more favoured in the USA. There's no need to change down to pass and hope you're in the VTEC band, or the turbo's spooled up - it's all there already. Then there's the sound...

Personally, I have respect for most engines - large Vs sound great and pull brilliantly, FI is a great way to get lots of power from a smaller engine at reasonably low cost, VTEC/MIVEC/VVTi are marvels of engineering. Hell, even Diesels are reaching new levels - and of course let's not forget the Renesis.


And my car has the world's smallest production car V6... :D
 
Famine
skylineGTR_guy: Factory support. Pure and simple.

There are of course two replacments for displacement - forced induction and revs. However, and this is something few fanboys get, all three have their place. In Japan you're taxed according to displacement, so small displacement, free-revving engines with turbochargers (or turbo and superchargers, if you're mad enough to own a 1.0 Micra/March SuperTurbo) make more sense - who wants to pay extra for the same power from a larger engine. Then you have weight/space considerations - how would a Scooby/Evo handle with a 300hp 4 litre V8 up front? Like Rafael Felipe Scheidt.

But larger engines deliver more low-down grunt - good for automatics which, correct me if I'm wrong, are more favoured in the USA. There's no need to change down to pass and hope you're in the VTEC band, or the turbo's spooled up - it's all there already. Then there's the sound...

Personally, I have respect for most engines - large Vs sound great and pull brilliantly, FI is a great way to get lots of power from a smaller engine at reasonably low cost, VTEC/MIVEC/VVTi are marvels of engineering. Hell, even Diesels are reaching new levels - and of course let's not forget the Renesis.


And my car has the world's smallest production car V6... :D
And I bet it sounds absolutely vicious:D.
As for the taxation thing. In the states we take that completly for granted.
Thus Hemi-powered "soccer-mom-mobiles". (SUV's).
And you're right about the auto tranny being favored here in the states. The last figure that I read had better than 75% of all sales being autos.
I guess that's why F1 champs tend to be people that aren't American. They are used to dealing with all the "distractions" of driving (like downshifting).:lol:
 
what some people need to do is go out and drive a good import, or a domestic, cause a lot of times they wont understand till they ve actually driven one. they might not change their mind, but a lot of them havent driven a good car on either side. they just base it off of that one, or several lower end cars they have driven, or off magazine articles to make their opinions on.
 
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