Tuning Vs Driver Skill

[Ryk]

A Good set up can give a driver a lot of confidence, Confidence to believe they have a low blood pH.
A Bad set up can ruin a poor drivers confidence - making them unpredictable and nervous. They are distanced from the car and end up being inconsistent.
An Ugly set up can bring out the best in a good driver. Good drivers tend to relish the "Dancing on the edge of adhesion"

And a Driver with low blood pH and a strong set up is ... an Artist, the tarmac their Canvas and the car their Brush. They paint the time sheets purple.

Just like me.

(Whoops, wrong quote!)

 

[ODB]

A Good set up can give a driver a lot of confidence, Confidence to believe they have a low blood pH.
A Bad set up can ruin a poor drivers confidence - making them unpredictable and nervous. They are distanced from the car and end up being inconsistent.
An Ugly set up can bring out the best in a good driver. Good drivers tend to relish the "Dancing on the edge of adhesion"

And a Driver with low blood pH and a strong set up is ... an Artist, the tarmac their Canvas and the car their Brush. They paint the time sheets purple.

Just like me.

(Whoops, wrong quote!)

"Driving without ABS will turn you in to Goddamn sexual tyrannosaurus" what the hell hahahaha I'm laughing so much , can't say you wrong though, ABS 0 makes you really drew those line like an artist, if you can just handle it

And yeah, really have to agree that with good setup I have better confidence, good example is @SW__10 tunes he provides in seasonal TT's, I have been driving hes tunes for a while now, and seems like it's almost enough to me to know that it's hes tune and I "know" I can go fast, haven't let me down yet, and when we are talking about exceeding your own skill the confidence is really important, without it it's no good...

 

[GT_Alex74]

But I don't think that's terribly helpful because that particular setup might not be the fastest for the second fastest person.

You have to be on the car's point of view for that one, not the driver's. A car has its own limits, subject to the laws of physics. Theorically, there's only one fastest way around a corner, and only one setup could allow that. A driver with its current style and skills can adjust a setting to be more comfortable for him, but he will end up being limited by physics. If he wants to get any faster, he will have to adjust his driving and get used to a setup he initially doesn't like.

Of course, that's theory, and as there's no such thing as a perfect driver, small adjustments are bound to be required by many, if not all. Still, I registered for a very competitive race on GT6 with the GTNF team (the very best French players around), and I could try all the things I would have naturally done to my setup, it was impossible to come even close to their times. I got my car set up like them, and they took a couple of laps to explain me how they drove this. It felt weird and not natural at first, but as I kept doing laps and getting used to it, my lap times dropped significantly, and ended up being competitive. I just reached a point I couldn't have with another kind of setup.

 

[sk8er913]

Put me in a race where you are allowed to tune and pick from any car, I wont do well. But if you don't allow tuning and make it a 1 make race. I will be near the front!

As an avid tuner who won a couple of F.I.T.T. tuning contests in my day, I'm going to say that the finer points of tuning are dramatically overrated and by far the most important thing is driver skill. The basics of tuning are very easy and just about any good driver knows these basics. The right gear ratios, add the "free" parts that don't cost any PP, add certain parts to maximize power output and then most good drivers know what adjustments to make to get a car to rotate through toe, LSD tuning, springs, ballast and brake balance, and you're 99.5% of the way home. Most importantly, really good drivers can make the car do what they want it to do, within reason of course, whereas ordinary or average drivers cannot and just accept what the car gives them. That's what separates the aliens from the rest of us, that ability to make a car dance, while the rest of us are just shuffling our feet to the music.

An average driver with a good tune will never beat a good driver with an average tune. The difference in skill levels in sim racing is huge, one only need look at TT results and you can see there's a huge separation even amongst the top few hundred. Take this TT for example:

Nearly 50,000 entries:

1st 1:47.2
13th +1 second
73rd +2 seconds
199th +3 seconds
502nd +4 seconds

Within the top 1% of entrants, you're already at 4 seconds a lap difference. You can do whatever you like with the car tuning wise, you will never, ever, ever make up that 4 second gap..or three...or two..or likely even one.

Nearly 50,000 entries:

1st 1:47.2
13th +1 second
73rd +2 seconds
199th +3 seconds
502nd +4 seconds

Becoming the top 502 isn't very difficult. But it takes time. Now top 73; that feels impossible!

... the top 1000 has a lot of real life variables though, you look at the lower half of it and you see a lot of cheap wheels and high quality controllers(Dual shock users). then you move up to the mid and you see a distinct rise in users that have good "supported wheels." then you move up to the top 199-73 and you see the last of the cheap wheel/good controller users. Those top 73 have very very good rigs. Most with TS500s. Yes the top 502 have all good drivers, but I think their equipment really enables them to increase their gap.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Becoming the top 502 isn't very difficult. But it takes time. Now top 73; that feels impossible!

... the top 1000 has a lot of real life variables though, you look at the lower half of it and you see a lot of cheap wheels and high quality controllers(Dual shock users). then you move up to the mid and you see a distinct rise in users that have good "supported wheels." then you move up to the top 199-73 and you see the last of the cheap wheel/good controller users. Those top 73 have very very good rigs. Most with TS500s. Yes the top 502 have all good drivers, but I think their equipment really enables them to increase their gap.

The top 500 is the top 1% or less of a typical TT. Where is your data on which wheels the top guys are using?

 

[Doodle]

the top 1000 has a lot of real life variables though, you look at the lower half of it and you see a lot of cheap wheels and high quality controllers(Dual shock users). then you move up to the mid and you see a distinct rise in users that have good "supported wheels." then you move up to the top 199-73 and you see the last of the cheap wheel/good controller users. Those top 73 have very very good rigs. Most with TS500s. Yes the top 502 have all good drivers, but I think their equipment really enables them to increase their gap.

As someone who was a frequent top 10 driver in time trials, most of what you said is not true. Sure, there is a slight bias towards wheel users when it comes to the people towards the top, but I've seen it all top 10 a time trial and even win. I've seen 200 degree steering wheels top 10 easily. I've even seen a d-pad user win an event. Not many people at the top actually have T500s, it's mostly DFGTs and G27s, with the occasional DFP mixing in.


Back to the topic of tuning vs driver skill...

Skill beats a good tune 99% of the time. The 1% I speak of is when two people are close in terms of skill, that's when tuning will play a role.

 

[MrGrado]

Definitely driver skill beats tuning. From my experience in tuning contests, a fast driver can be faster than a slower driver using the fastest tune with any of the tunes and even the fast driver's average laps can be faster than the slow driver's best lap.

 

[GT_Alex74]

Not many people at the top actually have T500s, it's mostly DFGTs and G27s, with the occasional DFP mixing in.

True. The G27 seems to be currently the most popular amongst top racers, but any wheel supported by the game, from DFP / DFGT to Thrustmasters are good enough to be fast. There are a few guys out there who can / could get top times with a pad, but that's very rare, and they still gain some time when switching to a wheel.

 

[Garage13]

I tend to disagree because during the course of 16 races last year my rival in my friends team super gt series in which he won more races than me but i was still in the lead before other circumstances made him leave the team and forfeit his chance to compete.he was more consistent by conserving fuel and tires during the race but was very quick in qualifying.he was within 4pts of me with 5 races left.on many of the tracks i was 2 seconds faster on hards than he was on softs.what i feel made me more competitive was the trans had the speed i also had a stable suspension tune on the car so it gave me the confidence to push the car.btw the trans was a 3k drag tune.we did 90 minute races

 

[sk8er913]

As someone who was a frequent top 10 driver in time trials, most of what you said is not true. Sure, there is a slight bias towards wheel users when it comes to the people towards the top, but I've seen it all top 10 a time trial and even win. I've seen 200 degree steering wheels top 10 easily. I've even seen a d-pad user win an event. Not many people at the top actually have T500s, it's mostly DFGTs and G27s, with the occasional DFP mixing in.


Back to the topic of tuning vs driver skill...

Skill beats a good tune 99% of the time. The 1% I speak of is when two people are close in terms of skill, that's when tuning will play a role.

In GT academy 2014. The highest non wheel user was in about 180th. And I was the 11th fastest none supported wheel user in 300.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I tend to disagree because during the course of 16 races last year my rival in my friends team super gt series in which he won more races than me but i was still in the lead before other circumstances made him leave the team and forfeit his chance to compete.he was more consistent by conserving fuel and tires during the race but was very quick in qualifying.he was within 4pts of me with 5 races left.on many of the tracks i was 2 seconds faster on hards than he was on softs.what i feel made me more competitive was the trans had the speed i also had a stable suspension tune on the car so it gave me the confidence to push the car.btw the trans was a 3k drag tune.we did 90 minute races

No offense but if you were 2 seconds faster on hards than he was on softs, he's either the world's worst tuner or a horrible driver or a bit of both.

 

[Garage13]

Johnny he wasnt a good tuner per se but he routinely outlasted me in fuel milage and tires.i made up for that in speed

 

[sk8er913]

Johnny he wasnt a good tuner per se but he routinely outlasted me in fuel milage and tires.i made up for that in speed

Sounds like le mans. Lol

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

How do you even see the guys at the top of the boards. I really had not paid much attention before as the TTs just never appealed to me the way they are done. Looking at the leaderboards though I do not see any way to jump to the top and view the number one times other than to scroll up until it gets there. I can't believe that they did not at least add a button to go to top, bottom, near me type things.

As leaderboards go GT has the worst I have saw, if you can even call them leaderboards.

I wanted to see how the wheels were listed at the top but it is far to much hassle with these lame leaderboards to even look. Of the few I did look at I see 900 degree racing wheel on several and 200 degree racing wheel on others no way to know which 900 degree wheel they used.

Edit. Duh nevermind I found it was just labeled really badly

The guy at the top also says 900 degree racing wheel so how are people getting that many are using the g27 or dfgt ?

 

[Johnnypenso]

How do you even see the guys at the top of the boards. I really had not paid much attention before as the TTs just never appealed to me the way they are done. Looking at the leaderboards though I do not see any way to jump to the top and view the number one times other than to scroll up until it gets there. I can't believe that they did not at least add a button to go to top, bottom, near me type things.

As leaderboards go GT has the worst I have saw, if you can even call them leaderboards.

I wanted to see how the wheels were listed at the top but it is far to much hassle with these lame leaderboards to even look. Of the few I did look at I see 900 degree racing wheel on several and 200 degree racing wheel on others no way to know which 900 degree wheel they used.

Edit. Duh nevermind I found it was just labeled really badly

The guy at the top also says 900 degree racing wheel so how are people getting that many are using the g27 or dfgt ?

There is no way to know about which brand of wheel is being used, but I can tell you that in the leaderboards in a PC sim I looked at recently, the G25/27 dominates to the point of being more common than all other wheels combined and by quite a margin. It is by far the most popular wheel in all sim racing. You can look for yourself here. Just scroll down the right side where the "i" is and a window will pop up to give you the input device. Interestingly, the top time in the world through RSR is on an X360 controller, which proves you don't necessarily have to have a wheel to be fast in a pure sim either. I believe the PCars guys have a huge survey in the SMS forums and the results were the same.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I can see the G25/27 being very popular as they are good wheels at a good price.

Being a GT/Forza/PC user of course I have a Fanatec as do several of my friends. Had it not been for playing Forza I would have most likely went with the G27 myself.

 

[sk8er913]

@Johnnypenso earlier you said that most of us just follow the motions as if it is a bad thing. But in my experience in endurance racing in GT6. Its actually the people that just stick to the motions that win. Because the people that push hard are faster, but they wear out their equipment faster and crash more often. The people that qualify 3rd or 4th actually tend to be the fastest over the period of 90 minutes.

Driver skill isn't limited to qualifying times.

 

[Harry6784]

Obviously a combination of both but tuning skill by far has a much more profound effect. But thing with tuning is I wouldn't consider it a 'skill' as such. In game description of suspension components, while true in real life, often have nothing to do with their effect in the world of GT6. Prime example is a couple months back, I was running in a GT500 league with some of my good friends, some of them former GT Academy finalists. Same car same specs at Silverston they were a good couple seconds faster than me. I didn't get it, a perfect lap for me was a high 1:53 and they would just join the lobby, hop and the track and lay down a low 1:52. Out of frustration I PM'ed one of my friends asking for his tune. He gave it to me and I was genuinely surprised. The tune didn't make any sense at all. Don't want to give too much away but ride height, spring rate, toe, everything was pretty much the exact opposite of what you see on GTP. With little confidence I hit the track and I couldn't believe it. My car griped more and I could get on the power mid corner with full confidence it would grip and not spin out. Within a couple laps I was laying down mid 1:52's then finally a high 1:51. Note that I tried many tunes from GTP's most 'respected' tuning garages and I didn't even come close to breaking the 1:53 barrier.

So yes your tune definitely has a bigger impact on whether you would win or lose, it's just a matter of trial and error to see what works in the realm of GT6 physics.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

There is no substitute for skill, period. You could have what may be considered the worlds best tune, but if you don't have the skill to drive it, then its not going to help you one bit. Also, there is no end-all, be-all best tune. The best tune is one that fits your driving style and one that you feel comfortable enough with to push to its limits and get the most out of. Skill 80%/tuning 20%.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Like @lGNAl said, Ayrton didn't tune. He raced. He pushed himself lap after lap and was never satisfied.

You're right, his team tuned the car for him

Now, as for what's more important, a good tune or a good driver, generally speaking I would say a tune has a bigger effect. I normally can't get within at least 1-2 seconds of the top times if I don't have a good time in a PP limited TT, whereas I can get much closer in stock TTs.

But at the end of the day, it's all relative, if you're against a truly shocking driver, it doesn't matter what tune you have, you're going to win. And if by tuning, you mean you can only change camber, it won't help you much.

 

[ODB]

DFGT to Thrustmasters

Hehe, just few months a go replaced my ancient DF pro to T300 and if the new wheel would have made that much difference I should be regular top ten player by now Damn I managed to make couple times to top 20 on that crappy old wheel, the new is bit easier to use because there's no death spot of any kind, but still it's not enought to make me much faster... So not even better equipment is that much of an advantage... At least not from where I'm standing!

 

[PJTierney]

... the top 1000 has a lot of real life variables though, you look at the lower half of it and you see a lot of cheap wheels and high quality controllers(Dual shock users). then you move up to the mid and you see a distinct rise in users that have good "supported wheels." then you move up to the top 199-73 and you see the last of the cheap wheel/good controller users. Those top 73 have very very good rigs. Most with TS500s. Yes the top 502 have all good drivers, but I think their equipment really enables them to increase their gap.

Regarding the top DS3 users, is there something in addition to their natural talent that they're doing/using to push themselves up the boards?

I've been using a Steering Sensitivity of 7 for over a year now, ABS at 1 and everything else at 0. I'm also using inverted triggers since I'm so used to the Xbox 360 pad from my Forza days, similar to these:

Getting back to my main question however, is there something that the top DS3 users are doing that helps them improve their times, such as some front suspension settings to make the most of the different steering style a DS3 has compared to a wheel?

I get that natural talent will win out in the long run, but if there are some car settings that are more "compatible" with a DS3 then I'd be interested in trying them out.

@Johnnypenso earlier you said that most of us just follow the motions as if it is a bad thing. But in my experience in endurance racing in GT6. Its actually the people that just stick to the motions that win. Because the people that push hard are faster, but they wear out their equipment faster and crash more often. The people that qualify 3rd or 4th actually tend to be the fastest over the period of 90 minutes.

Driver skill isn't limited to qualifying times.

I've been noticing this too while racing in the current ORA GTWC. I'm in the AM class and usually qualify mid-pack but when it comes to a 60 or 90 minute race I'll often be able to make up ground and be in with a shot of a podium.

Single lap pace is important, but if you're focused on a full race distance then consistency is equally vital. There's no point being a second faster than everyone if you bin it in the gravel halfway through.

 

[Akmuq]

You can do whatever you like with the car tuning wise, you will never, ever, ever make up that 4 second gap..or three...or two..or likely even one.

Don't forget a wheel is worth 5 seconds.

 

[Ryk]

But a D-Pad will get you 5 Firsts. -

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Don't forget a wheel is worth 5 seconds.

If only I could go 5 seconds faster than my pad times and that rule worked only for me, I would be like the best GT driver. I will be like if a top pad player made that jump though but luckily I know it is not possible .

Do think tuning can make a huge difference, if a consistent driver is say a second or two off the pace of another consistent driver, a good tune can make up the difference over a bad one.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Don't forget a wheel is worth 5 seconds.

Joke? Not sure about 5 seconds, unless you're that bad with a DS3...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Joke? Not sure about 5 seconds, unless you're that bad with a DS3...

On the Nords you will often see huge gaps between DS3 and wheel users.
9.53 seconds
4.50 seconds
Here you see someone get within a second in a slower, grippier car, but the second place driver is 4.219 seconds back.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

On the Nords you will often see huge gaps between DS3 and wheel users.
9.53 seconds
4.50 seconds
Here you see someone get within a second in a slower, grippier car, but the second place driver is 4.219 seconds back.

I think that is more to do with more of the fast people using wheels and also some really skilled pad players also post times with wheel so less likely to see decent pad times. There is also quite a big gap between the wheel users too as not too many put effort required or have the skill to do such fast times on a long track and same goes for pad players. Tuning I think helps makes things even closer and do see pad players winning TTs such as this one: Link

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think that is more to do with more of the fast people using wheels and also some really skilled pad players also post times with wheel so less likely to see decent pad times. There is also quite a big gap between the wheel users too as not too many put effort required or have the skill to do such fast times on a long track and same goes for pad players. Tuning I think helps makes things even closer and do see pad players winning TTs such as this one: Link

It's a convenient and also completely unprovable argument to say, "fast guys use wheels". Most TT's are completely dominated by wheels on the order of 80-90/top 100, even though they make up only about 20/100 users. I prefer to go by the bulk of the indisuputable data. Since everyone has equal access to tuning, I don't see how tuning could be a factor.

 

[GT_Alex74]

Hehe, just few months a go replaced my ancient DF pro to T300 and if the new wheel would have made that much difference I should be regular top ten player by now Damn I managed to make couple times to top 20 on that crappy old wheel, the new is bit easier to use because there's no death spot of any kind, but still it's not enought to make me much faster... So not even better equipment is that much of an advantage... At least not from where I'm standing!

This is basically what I'm saying. A DFGT is sufficient to max out your potential. I just think you can be more regular on your inputs with a belt-FFB, but that's no big deal.

Joke? Not sure about 5 seconds, unless you're that bad with a DS3...

I think it really depends on your level at the moment you switch from pad to wheel. I got seriously to drive on a 900° wheel on GT4, that makes some years now, but I think I gained around 3 seconds between the moment I left the pad and when I got used to the DFP, though you have to take into account the practice probably also refined my technique.

A better example would be one of the 2014 GT Academy French finalists. He switched from pad to wheel 6 months before, and if I remember well, he had the 2nd French time. He was already insanely fast with a pad before, but he surely maxed out what could be done with it. He just had to get used to the wheel to kick off what he needed to qualify, which I estimate it to be roughly between 1 and 1.5 second.

I think it is easier to practice some things with the wheel, but the most important gain with it is the pleasure increase. A pad is nowhere near a wheel on that point.