Tyre Pressure - A must for GT6?

[Chrunch Houston]

The important thing they need for NASCAR is asymmetric setups.

Yes. "Two turns to the track bar and two pounds out of the left rear."

 

[R34EVO9]

This has to be in gt6 if im gonna buy it im tired of having the same tuning since gt1 almost. And why are ppl complaining about having to spend hours tuning? I dont show up to lobbies with untuned cars . I spend up to 3 hours tuning a car sometimes and it pays off. No one has ever tuned a car after 10 minutes and go out and dominonate tuning takes time there's no easy button to tuning

 

[Methroix]

Personally I wouldn't consider lack of tyre pressure a dealbreaker, but I would be dissapointed if PD didn't implement it.
For me this feature goes hand in hand with tyre dimensions, which is something so major I cannot believe PD's left it out of the game.
Hopefully the new tyre model will bring these tuning options.


On a side note; does anyone know which tyre dimension (or dimensions) GT5's tyre model is based on?

 

[Griffith500]

Personally I wouldn't consider lack of tyre pressure a dealbreaker, but I would be dissapointed if PD didn't implement it.
For me this feature goes hand in hand with tyre dimensions, which is something so major I cannot believe PD's left it out of the game.
Hopefully the new tyre model will bring these tuning options.


On a side note; does anyone know which tyre dimension (or dimensions) GT5's tyre model is based on?

It's supposed to be handled per car. So the real tyre dimensions of the real car are used. There's a massive flaw in the system somewhere, either through very simplistic modeling of the effects of the tyres' construction on the handling, or through a deliberate attempt at balancing, in that all cars on a given set of tyres (with a given amount of downforce) generate the same cornering force.

I've already argued (briefly, without justification) in this thread that tyre size and construction are more important, in terms of the magnitude of their effects, than the range of useful tyre pressures is, especially for circuit racing (justification). The difference may be even greater for other kinds of driving.

Plus, there's the visual element which cannot be underestimated. It'd be nice if the physics accounted for the differences, especially given the disadvantage those silly stretched tyres would have

 

[Methroix]

It's supposed to be handled per car. So the real tyre dimensions of the real car are used. There's a massive flaw in the system somewhere, either through very simplistic modeling of the effects of the tyres' construction on the handling, or through a deliberate attempt at balancing, in that all cars on a given set of tyres (with a given amount of downforce) generate the same cornering force.

I've already argued (briefly, without justification) in this thread that tyre size and construction are more important, in terms of the magnitude of their effects, than the range of useful tyre pressures is, especially for circuit racing (justification). The difference may be even greater for other kinds of driving.

Plus, there's the visual element which cannot be underestimated. It'd be nice if the physics accounted for the differences, especially given the disadvantage those silly stretched tyres would have

I had a feeling it would be a generic approach, but I wasn't aware that it was this generic.
I guess this also defeats the whole idea of rim replacement (except for visuals) if the car still retains its original tyre dimensions for physics.

 

[Imari]

I've already argued (briefly, without justification) in this thread that tyre size and construction are more important, in terms of the magnitude of their effects, than the range of useful tyre pressures is, especially for circuit racing (justification). The difference may be even greater for other kinds of driving.

I'd agree with this. Particularly tyre sizes. There's a whole range of cars in GT5 with staggered tyre sizes that don't behave correctly because of it.

Tyre pressures are nice and important, but pointless if the underlying tyre isn't at least moderately correct.

 

[Antonisbob]

Well PD did say they where re-doing the tire model, maybe that is to accommodate more adjustment of the tires, such as tire pressure.

 

[Aquarelle]

Well PD did say they where re-doing the tire model, maybe that is to accommodate more adjustment of the tires, such as tire pressure.

If you're putting bold tags around tyre as a spelling correction you might want to stop.
Both are correct, "tire" is the American spelling while "tyre" is the British.

EDIT: Since I just realised I never actually got around to responding to this thread, I might as well do so now.

I don't think it's a "must" as it's not going to make or break the game for me; however I think it's an important element that is missing.

Things like tyre pressure and wheel width etc might start making things more complicated for beginner tuners, but I think the benefits outweigh the cons.

It's possible that this complexity is what's stopping PD from making advances in the tuning portion of Gran Turismo, which could be solved I think by an option to change your tuning menu to a more simplistic form (Such as how we have it now) while having an "advanced" tab or similar to allow for a wider range of damper/anti roll settings and ride height (allowing cars to get too low and bottom out, unlike the current restricted ride height options)

 

[Brock5000]

To play the devil's advocate, it's one of those things that sounds like a brilliant idea in theory, but in the game it won't have quite the effect we think it might have.

In an accurate simulation it would certainly be of benefit, but this is Gran Turismo we're talking about (and I would say that about any game). There's enough refinement that can be done within the existing framework of GT suspension physics that adding another variable would be unnecessary and over-complicate matters, both for the developers and game tuners.

Then there's always the likelihood that tuners work out that always setting the tyre pressure to one extreme or the other outweighs any disadvantages that would result from doing so in the real world.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but given the incremental changes to the handling in GT over the years, I think it will be a long time before including adjustable tyre pressures brings any real benefits to this game.

 

[niky]

I'm pretty sure it'll be just as frustrating as any other part of suspension tuning has been over the past few years...

 

[Stephanos82]

If you're putting bold tags around tyre as a spelling correction you might want to stop.
Both are correct, "tire" is the American spelling while "tyre" is the British.

EDIT: Since I just realised I never actually got around to responding to this thread, I might as well do so now.

I don't think it's a "must" as it's not going to make or break the game for me; however I think it's an important element that is missing.

Things like tyre pressure and wheel width etc might start making things more complicated for beginner tuners, but I think the benefits outweigh the cons.

It's possible that this complexity is what's stopping PD from making advances in the tuning portion of Gran Turismo, which could be solved I think by an option to change your tuning menu to a more simplistic form (Such as how we have it now) while having an "advanced" tab or similar to allow for a wider range of damper/anti roll settings and ride height (allowing cars to get too low and bottom out, unlike the current restricted ride height options)

+1
I love the idea of the simple and advanced tuning tab for all settings! How about something like the simplisti tuning bars in rfactor! You can easily scroll to oversteer-understeer, aerodynamics etc and the game makes appropriate changes for you - which might be thre pressure, aero wings adjustments, camber abd even gear ratios!

 

[Trux]

Well PD did say they where re-doing the tire model, maybe that is to accommodate more adjustment of the tires, such as tire pressure.

👎 It's Tyre in English and Tire in American English.

While waiting for one of his turns at the GT6 cockpit sleds, Chunx noticed the tire temperature and wear graphic overlay for GT6 would heat up when cars were sliding through hard corners, but cool off to normal in only a few seconds. It was reminiscent of how critical injuries in games like Call of Duty recover in only a few seconds − certainly not realistic from a simulation perspective. Taku addressed that, saying that tire wear in GT6′s “Hard Core” mode will allow the player to adjust wear rates and how they respond to abuse.

 

[Aquarelle]

Tyre wear quote.

Could you please explain what relevance this has to this topic?

 

[Trux]

Could you please explain what relevance this has to this topic?

No I'm good thanks

 

[Sohvakettu]

As long as the game would give us the temperature spread of the tire it would be nice addition (in addition of making camber adjustment more precise). In GTR2 i usually found tire preasure and camber adjustment to be quickest ones to make after the brake balance adjustments as looking at the temperatures would quickly tell if you were close to a ok setup.

 

[snowgt]

...

There's enough refinement that can be done within the existing framework of GT suspension physics that adding another variable would be unnecessary and over-complicate matters, both for the developers and game tuners.

I wholeheartedly agree. From having 9 different compounds to choose from, you would first have to offer different tyre widths and sidewall heights and if you add tyre pressure to the mix, you might do it right for a few select people that will have the time to fiddle around with one setup for weeks, but most of us don't. And I don't just mean casual gamers.

 

[eclipsee]

If there's no tyre pressure in GT6, real data from Yokohama tyres can't be transfered properly.

 

[Imari]

I wholeheartedly agree. From having 9 different compounds to choose from, you would first have to offer different tyre widths and sidewall heights and if you add tyre pressure to the mix, you might do it right for a few select people that will have the time to fiddle around with one setup for weeks, but most of us don't. And I don't just mean casual gamers.

Honestly, getting a somewhat correct tyre pressure isn't rocket science. As long as you don't go really high or really low, it'll be fine. It's not like having it means that you HAVE to get it just so, or even adjust it at all.

Do you spend time tweaking all the settings we have now? I sure as hell don't. I have standard values for camber, toe and brake balance that I whack on every car, and if it feels OK I'll leave it at that. I'm not wasting my time fiddling with diffs, shocks, ride heights, aero, and everything else if I don't have to.


9 tyre compounds has been overkill for years. What do you really need? Eco, standard, sports, semi-slick, race slick, and maybe a drag tyre?

They don't have to offer different sidewall heights, although technically it should fall out of whatever system they're using to model the spring rate and flex of the tyre. Widths is something that should be part of the physics system, so no difficulty there.

 

[LVracerGT]

To play the devil's advocate, it's one of those things that sounds like a brilliant idea in theory, but in the game it won't have quite the effect we think it might have.

In an accurate simulation it would certainly be of benefit, but this is Gran Turismo we're talking about (and I would say that about any game). There's enough refinement that can be done within the existing framework of GT suspension physics that adding another variable would be unnecessary and over-complicate matters, both for the developers and game tuners.

Then there's always the likelihood that tuners work out that always setting the tyre pressure to one extreme or the other outweighs any disadvantages that would result from doing so in the real world.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but given the incremental changes to the handling in GT over the years, I think it will be a long time before including adjustable tyre pressures brings any real benefits to this game.

Well, without trying to sound like a d*ck this is pretty much BS. Tire pressures would bring a huge advantage to the series. Not only does being able to adjust tire pressures have a big effect on how the car will perform and react to certain conditions, currently camber adjustments are purely a shot in the dark. Without inside/middle/outside tire temperature readouts after being on track and tire pressure adjustments it is impossible to dial in a suspension setup for anything in GT.

Any suspension tuning in GT is trial and error. Make an adjustment, go out on track and try to determine if it's working, if it's not, or if it's a placebo effect. Most of my setups are base values I've learned from years of GTR2 and rFactor.

 

[Stephanos82]

Well, without trying to sound like a d*ck this is pretty much BS. Tire pressures would bring a huge advantage to the series. Not only does being able to adjust tire pressures have a big effect on how the car will perform and react to certain conditions, currently camber adjustments are purely a shot in the dark. Without inside/middle/outside tire temperature readouts after being on track and tire pressure adjustments it is impossible to dial in a suspension setup for anything in GT.

Any suspension tuning in GT is trial and error. Make an adjustment, go out on track and try to determine if it's working, if it's not, or if it's a placebo effect. Most of my setups are base values I've learned from years of GTR2 and rFactor.

+1
It just makes you wonder if Kaz has ever played any other racing titles except GT! Would have been nice pf him to give LFS and Rfactor a try!!

 

[Brock5000]

Well, without trying to sound like a d*ck this is pretty much BS. Tire pressures would bring a huge advantage to the series. Not only does being able to adjust tire pressures have a big effect on how the car will perform and react to certain conditions, currently camber adjustments are purely a shot in the dark. Without inside/middle/outside tire temperature readouts after being on track and tire pressure adjustments it is impossible to dial in a suspension setup for anything in GT.

Any suspension tuning in GT is trial and error. Make an adjustment, go out on track and try to determine if it's working, if it's not, or if it's a placebo effect. Most of my setups are base values I've learned from years of GTR2 and rFactor.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying.

currently camber adjustments are purely a shot in the dark.

And I'm suggesting they put the effort into refining things like camber adjustments, rather than adding another set of variables on top.

Without inside/middle/outside tire temperature readouts after being on track and tire pressure adjustments it is impossible to dial in a suspension setup for anything in GT.

Impossible to dial in a setup? Okay...

Most of my setups are base values I've learned from years of GTR2 and rFactor.

Not sure what that has to do with Gran Turismo?

 

[Uncle Harry]

The physics model will have to change to allow for variations in temperature.
Without vital information like track temperature and ambient temperature and a forecast it is totally meaningless to have to chase optimum tyre pressure values.

 

[Imari]

Impossible to dial in a setup? Okay...

You know what he means. There are adjustments that are purely related to driver feel, no problem there.

The adjustments that are made to enhance actual performance of the car are like trying to drive with your eyes shut. Eventually with enough laps and time put in you may come up with something decent, but you'll never be able to objectively say "these camber and suspension settings give the best grip".

Without telemetry, it will always be an educated guess at best. Camber in GT5 is a black art, not a science.

 

[Fong74]

Hey guys, maybe one of you tire-interested can answer this:

What do the "10"s represent that can be seen in GT6 footage beside the tire wear display? They remain unchanged, but wear is off anyway in all videos I have seen so far. Seems to be something tire related, but I have no clue what it really is...

Thanks in advance.

 

[Stephanos82]

Hey guys, maybe one of you tire-interested can answer this:

What do the "10"s represent that can be seen in GT6 footage beside the tire wear display? They remain unchanged, but wear is off anyway in all videos I have seen so far. Seems to be something tire related, but I have no clue what it really is...

Thanks in advance.

Can you link footage?

 

[CTznOfTime]

If we are going to add tire (tyre) pressure to the games, we also should add nails to the road etc...

because what's the purpose of knowing the pressure if it doesn't go flat ?

This is one variable i dont really care to have added to it...

i see many people in the streets not paying attention to their car's tire pressure... it's sad... why would people in games care for that ?

If it's already a burden for some people in real life, why add to the games...
... but then again you will tell me this could be true for other aspects of the game too...

bottom line, i dont care to have this pressure thing added...

If it's in, great
if it's not, then i got one less thing to worry about.

Meh!.

 

[Stephanos82]

If we are going to add tire (tyre) pressure to the games, we also should add nails to the road etc...

because what's the purpose of knowing the pressure if it doesn't go flat ?

This is one variable i dont really care to have added to it...

i see many people in the streets not paying attention to their car's tire pressure... it's sad... why would people in games care for that ?

If it's already a burden for some people in real life, why add to the games...
... but then again you will tell me this could be true for other aspects of the game too...

bottom line, i dont care to have this pressure thing added...

If it's in, great
if it's not, then i got one less thing to worry about.

Meh!.

Probably you've never been to the track, have you? Tyres are the most important thing on a car! And adjusting the tyre pressure is the first thing you do that will affect how your car handles! You won't buy upgrades like new tyres, suspension or add turbos to ur car to make it faster! When you are on a track day there's only one thing you can do -> adjust tyre pressure!!!!

 

[Aquarelle]

If we are going to add tire (tyre) pressure to the games, we also should add nails to the road etc...

because what's the purpose of knowing the pressure if it doesn't go flat ?

This is one variable i dont really care to have added to it...

i see many people in the streets not paying attention to their car's tire pressure... it's sad... why would people in games care for that ?

If it's already a burden for some people in real life, why add to the games...
... but then again you will tell me this could be true for other aspects of the game too...

bottom line, i dont care to have this pressure thing added...

If it's in, great
if it's not, then i got one less thing to worry about.

Meh!.

You're confusing tyre pressure with.. well.. tyre pressure - I guess.

Tyre pressure in a racing situation is very different to regular street use - in normal application people just try to keep it at the factory recommended PSI because it improves fuel and tyre consumption - on the tracks however it's an entirely different kettle of fish as you can see from some explanations earlier in the thread.

It's a similar story for rim size, people seem to think it's only a style thing but it can in fact change the handling of the car to a degree as you're reducing the sidewall size, though I don't think I've come across a game as of yet that really simulates this and it's generally a bad idea handling wise to have an excessively small sidewall.

 

[Trux]

If we are going to add tire (tyre) pressure to the games, we also should add nails to the road etc...

because what's the purpose of knowing the pressure if it doesn't go flat ?

This is one variable i dont really care to have added to it...

i see many people in the streets not paying attention to their car's tire pressure... it's sad... why would people in games care for that ?

If it's already a burden for some people in real life, why add to the games...
... but then again you will tell me this could be true for other aspects of the game too...

bottom line, i dont care to have this pressure thing added...

If it's in, great
if it's not, then i got one less thing to worry about.

Meh!.

More of a gamer than a racer? Nothing wrong with that but tyre pressure is extremely important in the set up of a car that's going to race if the pilot want's to ensure he's getting th most out of the car.

Don't think were getting it though. I think were getting tyre wear indicators instead which if given as a inner, outer and middle wear as a percentage or in numerical form would at least aide in setting camber.

Hopefully pressures are in but if not wear indicators please PD (Across all 3 slices of the tyre, not just one value).

 

[niky]

Rim width is actually something very few people pay attention to, even though they should.

When Jaguar released the XFR-S, they did something very subtle with it. They gave it 20" wheels that looked something like the 20" wheels on the XFR. Only they were an inch wider.

That has a massive impact on sidewall stiffness and cornering response, even with the same tire size.

This is why GT4, GT5Prologue and GT5 frustrated me to no end. Trying to get an unpopular car to a competitive level when you have no control over rim size/width and tire size/width meant that if the car came with garbage tires as stock, you were basically at a huge handicap compared to a similar (sometimes inferior) car which came with better rolling stock.

-

On the road, most people don't pay attention to pressures, but they should. I can often discern a difference of 1-2 psi in my cars, and tiny changes have a huge effect on ride comfort, tracking, stability and rolling resistance.

On the track, the benefits multiply greatly. It'd be very easy to set a "standard" tire pressure for each car that will run well enough 80% of the time. Players can then tweak it to alter the balance of the car or improve cornering response or wheel control.