Ultimate Driving Simulator, on MR Cars

[LS Chiou]

Hi there,

I'd like to have a discussion about the handling of various MR cars in this 'ultimate driving simulator'.

One of the most important aspect is: some (or the majority) of MR cars -including many road cars- in this game tend to have inherently snap oversteer when lift off, thus very unstable in deceleration and turn-in. So, I wonder, are they really doing that IRL? Among them, there're also some low power cars. And I don't think they are specifically track-oriented, e.g. MR2, etc. Are such tail-happy characters really compatible to ordinary road use?

Most of that 'ill-behavior' can be tamed -in game- by high initial torque setting in LSD, which partially locks both rear wheel when lift-off and give the car more tendency to go straight (and less tendency of rotating). I've also seen several cars (in this game) come with very high initial torque setting in their 'stock' LSD. But I doubt the cars IRL have such design, because high locking ratio means high friction and transmission loss. It's totally not necessary in low loading, which takes the most proportion in real world driving. A fixed high initial torque would makes the car too hard to steer in low speed driving IRL, just think go-kart.

The second is the difference among cars. Is it really that large? Say, Ford GT is so stable related to (the notorious) Diablo GT. But is such degree of difference real?

Don't get me wrong, I like diversity. And I enjoying the process of taming and fighting with those waggy tails.

But I wonder, are they really that way IRL? Are those lucky rich guys really able to switch from their Bentley to Diablo without problem?

Any comments?

 

[Lawndart]

Read up on the "1.04 physics changes" thread. I have some rather long posts in there, and yes, adjusting LSD helps and so does raising the ride hight in the front more than the rear...

But numerous other details are discussed also.

 

[research]

There are some other factors at play IRL. The SW20 MR2's for example actually have rear suspension that changes geometry depending on weight transfer. Speaking from direct experience from owning one over the last 14 months, it is pretty intense.

Accelerating through/out of a corner we have an advantage over most FR vehicles for obvious reasons, and it is quite stable with a bit of understeer. Holding throttle through a corner is also stable and uneventful. But oh lord, if you decide to lift off that throttle anywhere near the edge of grip, you are now dealing with a rear track that just went from toe-in, to pant-soiling toe-out.

That change forces the rear end to come around, which is actually desirable in low-speed corners in race situations, and toyota designed it like this on purpose (though, I'm not really sure for whom ). If you lift throttle quickly, you better be ready -anticipating the snapping change and reacting like Colin McRae to catch it. Over time and with practice though, you can learn to control your foot when lifting off that throttle, performing the lift more slowly and smoothly.

I'm not sure if most MR cars actually incorporate such drastic changes in suspension geometry, though. And I'm pretty confident that Gran Turismo does not program such intricate (but striking) effects into the physics.. yet. For high-speed, large-radius turns which most supercars are intended to tackle, this 'changing' effect would likely do you no good. I believe that most MR supercars have some natural lift-off oversteer, but not snap oversteer. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as most of my re.. re.. study has been on the little duece..

 

[LS Chiou]

Yes I know there're other threads covering some of the issues, but those are also covering too many other things. So I'd like to have a new thread.

And thanks for the inputs. I'll try the ride height adjustment. (Higher in front looks odd and should be bad for high speed stability, though)

About the suspension geometry changes, I roughly know that most road cars are designed to have stability in higher priority, especially when braking. Toe out on the rear when it's lifted is really dangerous. It's already somewhat floating at the moment! What to do if there's an urgent accident forcing you to change direction and slow down at the same time? Say, an animal is right at the apex of a mountain road. Or sidestepping obstacles on the lane in highway. That'd be too 'exciting' to drive such a car on public roads. I don't think those super car makers would scare their wealthy (and non-racer) customers with such a surprise.

On specific race cars, even if they are designed to have lift off oversteer with their suspension geometry, I'd be very surprised if they are really so snappy IRL. Any racer is already very busy on fighting with opponents and the track, if he/she has to fight with the drama of his/her own car, wouldn't it overloading?

In addition, on race cars or supercars, suspension travel tends to be very small. So the geometry changes, if any, should be relatively small, too. In replays, I see there's little roll or dive/squat on R8 LMS or Diablo. So I also doubt PD has included the effects into the physics.

 

[eran0004]

'ultimate real driving simulator'.

Some lucky rich guys aren't even able to make a turn at an intersection.

 

[Mad Matt]

I've had an MR2 Mk3 for a few years and yes it can be very snappy. Mine's even one with a LSD. I think you probably know that different LSDs work differently but this one is a torsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen) for the record.

My experience is that the car is fairly stable while driving on road as long as you treat it with respect but lifting off the throttle at the wrong time on a wet slippery road is going to end in tears.

Once you learn to read the signals the chassis is giving you it isn't too unfriendly and if you don't drive close to the limit you can have a lot of fun without getting bitten. The direction change is amazing if you are coming from a more "normal" car.

I haven't yet driven the car in GT6 but I imagine it would be difficult to get the best out of as the feelings you get from the chassis come through your bum and not just the steering wheel in real life. Well.... I look forward to trying it in the game.

 

[GregOr1971]

Some lucky rich guys aren't even able to make a turn at an intersection.

nailed

 

[Vegard]

The suspension dynamics are a bit of a dog's breakfast at the moment:

 

[Malcolm Tucker]

There are some other factors at play IRL. The SW20 MR2's for example actually have rear suspension that changes geometry depending on weight transfer. Speaking from direct experience from owning one over the last 14 months, it is pretty intense.

Accelerating through/out of a corner we have an advantage over most FR vehicles for obvious reasons, and it is quite stable. Holding throttle through a corner is also stable and uneventful. But oh lord, if you decide to lift off that throttle anywhere near the edge of grip, you are now dealing with a rear track that just went from toe-in, to pant-soiling toe-out.

That change forces the rear end to come around, which is actually desirable in low-speed corners in race situations, and toyota designed it like this on purpose (though, I'm not really sure for whom ). If you lift throttle quickly, you better be ready -anticipating the snapping change and reacting like Colin McRae to catch it. Over time and with practice though, you can learn to control your foot when lifting off that throttle, performing the lift more slowly and smoothly.

I'm not sure if most MR cars actually incorporate such drastic changes in suspension geometry, though. And I'm pretty confident that Gran Turismo does not program such intricate (but striking) effects into the physics.. yet. For high-speed, large-radius turns which most supercars are intended to tackle, this 'changing' effect would likely do you no good. I believe that most MR supercars have some natural lift-off oversteer, but not snap oversteer. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as most of my re.. re.. study has been on the little duece..

A lot of cars are set up like this irl. BMW's rear axles for example are designed so that when you brake and the rear end lifts, it increases rear toe to improve braking stability. I don't know if GT actually replicates things like this though.

PD's communication is terrible. If they actually told us what was going on then there wouldn't be any need for half the topics on this forum lol.

 

[gogetbusy]

MRs are pretty accurate from my experience and so are FRs. 4WDs are alright but FFs still need work.

 

[iLex]

Some lucky rich guys aren't even able to make a turn at an intersection.

Isn't that car 4WD though?

 

[BWX]

There's no way MR cars are that dangerous and have that much violent snap over steer in real life, and are that impossible to correct when it does happen.. If they did, everyone who ever drove one fast would be dead!

It is nonsense to think that in real life, MR cars would act as though they have their engines hanging 20 feet above and10 feet behind the car on a pole.. because that is how they act in this game..

Yeah you can "fix" it with ridiculously unrealistic suspension and diff settings, but come on, that alone tells you something about how "realistic" the handling of these cars are. Then when you set it up like that, there are consequences that cannot be fixed.

I spent a few hours yesterday taming one of the Audi R8 LM cars.. running the Apricot hill 20 min race. The diff settings ended up being 60-50-60, and the rear toe set to 1.00 degrees (maxed out).. and having more relative rear downforce than front. Then the car becomes drivable and you can actual push it, although on slower corners, where traction should be highest, such as the hairpin, the rear end comes around on you after you are done braking and transitioning to throttle, going 30 mph! It's like a switch from full rear traction to no rear traction, with no change in speed, and it happens violently and instantly. That is just plain wrong.

On top of this problem, when you try to catch the oversteer when it happens, it isn't natural or smooth or realistic at all. It goes from snap oversteer, to correction, to snap oversteer the other direction instantly if you don't get the angle and timing exactly perfect. It isn't that difficult to correct oversteer if you have enough room on the road/ track IRL. It isn't brain surgery. This game.. and it is far from a simulation at this point, has major issues, and the dynamics of most MR cars highlight these issues for everyone to see.

Showing some inexperience Lambo driver acting like a fool in an intersection with throttle induced oversteer means nothing. That isn't even the problem in GT6.


To anyone who wants to argue that GT6t physics are sound.. I give you this post 1.04 pic.

You think this isn't happening to some degree or another in all cars? It would explain the completely unrealistic lack of grip at the rear as soon as the smallest weight shift to the front happens in an MR car in GT6. The rear wheels are barely "touching the ground".. that is probably a huge part of the problem. Weight transfer is "blanked" in GT6. FUBAR.

 

[Super1600]

There's no way MR cars are that dangerous and have that much violent snap over steer in real life, and are that impossible to correct when it does happen.. If they did, everyone who ever drove one fast would be dead!

It is nonsense to think that in real life, MR cars would act as though they have their engines hanging 20 feet above and10 feet behind the car on a pole.. because that is how they act in this game..

Yeah you can "fix" it with ridiculously unrealistic suspension and diff settings, but come on, that alone tells you something about how "realistic" the handling of these cars are. Then when you set it up like that, there are consequences that cannot be fixed.

I spent a few hours yesterday taming one of the Audi R8 LM cars.. running the Apricot hill 20 min race. The diff settings ended up being 60-50-60, and the rear toe set to 1.00 degrees (maxed out).. and having more relative rear downforce than front. Then the car becomes drivable and you can actual push it, although on slower corners, where traction should be highest, such as the hairpin, the rear end comes around on you after you are done braking and transitioning to throttle, going 30 mph! It's like a switch from full rear traction to no rear traction, with no change in speed, and it happens violently and instantly. That is just plain wrong.

On top of this problem, when you try to catch the oversteer when it happens, it isn't natural or smooth or realistic at all. It goes from snap oversteer, to correction, to snap oversteer the other direction instantly if you don't get the angle and timing exactly perfect. It isn't that difficult to correct oversteer if you have enough room on the road/ track IRL. It isn't brain surgery. This game.. and it is far from a simulation at this point, has major issues, and the dynamics of most MR cars highlight these issues for everyone to see.

Showing some inexperience Lambo driver acting like a fool in an intersection with throttle induced oversteer means nothing. That isn't even the problem in GT6.


To anyone who wants to argue that GT6t physics are sound.. I give you this post 1.04 pic.

You think this isn't happening to some degree or another in all cars? It would explain the completely unrealistic lack of grip at the rear as soon as the smallest weight shift to the front happens in an MR car in GT6. The rear wheels are barely "touching the ground".. that is probably a huge part of the problem. Weight transfer is "blanked" in GT6. FUBAR.

 

[BWX]

Yeah I have seen that.. It also means nothing. That car's suspension is completely broken (maybe like GT6 physics?). There could be 500 pounds of lead in the front bumper for all we know too. My Subaru Impreza doesn't do that, and neither does any Impreza with working suspension.

 

[Super1600]

Yeah I have seen that.. It also means nothing. That car's suspension is completely broken (maybe like GT6 physics?). There could be 500 pounds of lead in the front bumper for all we know too. My Subaru Impreza doesn't do that, and neither does any Impreza with working suspension.

if you still want to be blind after having reality shoved in front of your face you're hopeless, if a car with a 4wd transmission can lift the rear that way it's no wonder that a FF car will lift the rear when at least 60% of the weight is in the front.

Do you want to know the "fix" for that?

lower the ride height, just like IRL

 

[eSZee]

But oh lord, if you decide to lift off that throttle anywhere near the edge of grip, you are now dealing with a rear track that just went from toe-in, to pant-soiling toe-out.

How many times did you replace the front seat?

There's no way MR cars are that dangerous and have that much violent snap over steer in real life, and are that impossible to correct when it does happen.. If they did, everyone who ever drove one fast would be dead!

This happens more than you think. Even one of the guys here posted what happened to his mr-s when a buddy took it for a drive. It was around a tree, up a hill, and I want to say upside down when it was all said and done.

 

[mohammad]

dont people use traction control & other aids IRL?

 

[LVracerGT]

Myself and everyone else I race with still have no issues with MR cars, never have.

 

[BWX]

if you still want to be blind after having reality shoved in front of your face you're hopeless, if a car with a 4wd transmission can lift the rear that way it's no wonder that a FF car will lift the rear when at least 60% of the weight is in the front.

Do you want to know the "fix" for that?

lower the ride height, just like IRL

Wrong, wrong, wrong. The only thing that proves is that cars with broken suspension do whacky things.

It does highlight another issue with GT6 broken physics.. When a tire is wore down to "0", "1" or sometimes "2", it acts as though the tire is not attached to the car anymore, or it acts as if the suspension is broken, not like the tire is just wore down.

Myself and everyone else I race with still have no issues with MR cars, never have.

Without setup changes?

I can also drive the piss out of MR cars with crazy diff settings.. I'm only talking about stock, or realistic setups. You know, when some MR cars act as I described in post above. Same thing OP is talking about.

 

[BWX]

delete

 

[Super1600]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. The only thing that proves is that cars with broken suspension do whacky things.

It does highlight another issue with GT6 broken physics.. When a tire is wore down to "0", "1" or sometimes "2", it acts as though the tire is not attached to the car anymore, or it acts as if the suspension is broken, not like the tire is just wore down.

of course, when you get into a car with a broken damper the physics change completely around you.

The physics aren't broken, stop bashing something that's fine, what's wrong is the stock suspension on a lot of cars, that's want they need to fix.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

There's no way MR cars are that dangerous and have that much violent snap over steer in real life, and are that impossible to correct when it does happen.. If they did, everyone who ever drove one fast would be dead!

It is nonsense to think that in real life, MR cars would act as though they have their engines hanging 20 feet above and10 feet behind the car on a pole.. because that is how they act in this game..

Yeah you can "fix" it with ridiculously unrealistic suspension and diff settings, but come on, that alone tells you something about how "realistic" the handling of these cars are. Then when you set it up like that, there are consequences that cannot be fixed.

I spent a few hours yesterday taming one of the Audi R8 LM cars.. running the Apricot hill 20 min race. The diff settings ended up being 60-50-60, and the rear toe set to 1.00 degrees (maxed out).. and having more relative rear downforce than front. Then the car becomes drivable and you can actual push it, although on slower corners, where traction should be highest, such as the hairpin, the rear end comes around on you after you are done braking and transitioning to throttle, going 30 mph! It's like a switch from full rear traction to no rear traction, with no change in speed, and it happens violently and instantly. That is just plain wrong.

On top of this problem, when you try to catch the oversteer when it happens, it isn't natural or smooth or realistic at all. It goes from snap oversteer, to correction, to snap oversteer the other direction instantly if you don't get the angle and timing exactly perfect. It isn't that difficult to correct oversteer if you have enough room on the road/ track IRL. It isn't brain surgery. This game.. and it is far from a simulation at this point, has major issues, and the dynamics of most MR cars highlight these issues for everyone to see.

Showing some inexperience Lambo driver acting like a fool in an intersection with throttle induced oversteer means nothing. That isn't even the problem in GT6.


To anyone who wants to argue that GT6t physics are sound.. I give you this post 1.04 pic.

You think this isn't happening to some degree or another in all cars? It would explain the completely unrealistic lack of grip at the rear as soon as the smallest weight shift to the front happens in an MR car in GT6. The rear wheels are barely "touching the ground".. that is probably a huge part of the problem. Weight transfer is "blanked" in GT6. FUBAR.

Obviously, you must have missed my simple realistic tune for the R8 LMS Ultra, just LSD and suspension and it becomes much easier to push hard, no need for insane LSD and toe values, try 1:23s at Brands Hatch and 2:05s at Bathurst easily on RH tire, no oil change, 599PP, stock gearing and aero.

Even a 600HP Ferrari 288 GTO on comfort soft is perfectly drivable - Wangan Midnight replica that I will post soon on my garage.

 

[LVracerGT]

Without setup changes?

I can also drive the piss out of MR cars with crazy diff settings.. I'm only talking about stock, or realistic setups. You know, when some MR cars act as I described in post above. Same thing OP is talking about.

Yes, completely stock. MR cars handle and feel like MR cars. Never had a problem with them, and I've never heard anyone I race with complain about them. The only complaints I hear are complaints about people who complain about MR cars not driving the way they expect them to. IMO the only problem is people not being able to adapt to the much more realistic physics and the way MR cars require to be driven.

Just because MR cars are "supposed to handle better" doesn't mean you can turn into a corner, jam on the brakes and expect it to stick and rocket out better than FR or FF. The weight is in the rear, and it wants to be at the front. The majority of MR and RR cars naturally oversteer, and if you don't adjust your driving accordingly they will bite you.

This thread needs to die, IMO. It's just v2.0 of the MR cars are broken and we don't need PD dumbing down physics for people who can't adjust to MR handling.

 

[sumbrownkid]

If anyone can tame the MR car, it's Ridox.

 

[NixxxoN]

@BWX

You surely drive at 200-250 km/h (or 125-155 mph) and with racing slick tires to any kind of corners in real life to compare?

 

[eSZee]

dont people use traction control & other aids IRL?

Nah. People get flamed for using AIDs on GTP so they turn them off and it carries over into real life.

 

[BWX]

@BWX

You surely drive at 200-250 km/h (or 125-155 mph) and with racing slick tires to any kind of corners in real life to compare?

Well, yeah I have driven an MR car, and at highway speeds.. not with slicks.

 

[Super1600]

Well, yeah I have driven an MR car, and at highway speeds.. not with slicks.

Even if I never drove a car in my life, and was strapped to a wheelchair like Stephen Hawking I am still qualified to make observations inferred from videos, and written words of other people's experiences who have. So your attempted argument, in the form of a question designed to show how I am unqualified to make any points about the matter, is inconsequential.

For instance:



Now you go drive the same exact type of car in GT6 with default setup or anything remotely close, and see if you experience anything close to what he did.




The Audi LM race car you drive stock setup and think it is "right"??

And even if you do, just because someone "can drive" these problematic MR cars in GT6, that doesn't mean the physics model is correct.

As I and others have said, not all MR cars are so badly messed up.


I see you ignore my evidence to the contrary though, (everyone in the real world not being dead who drove one, and other people's experience with the real life cars being completely different) and your only evidence is "being able to drive them".. The fact that you brag about it like an accomplishment says something about how wrong they are though.


And now you're just making things up. No one said you should be able to do that.. You just completely made that up.

the same applies to you
Just because someone can't drive the MR cars doesn't mean that they're broken.

And in the real world the cars give way more feedback than whatever you're getting just from the wheel and you can react to it and adapt your driving more easily.

that integra picture proves nothing, I have seen many many touring cars flip like that because they turned in too hard, got sideways then it's just rolling

 

[jr93alty]

if you still want to be blind after having reality shoved in front of your face you're hopeless, if a car with a 4wd transmission can lift the rear that way it's no wonder that a FF car will lift the rear when at least 60% of the weight is in the front.

Do you want to know the "fix" for that?

lower the ride height, just like IRL

Did you notice the pumping of the brakes to create a pendulum action? It's not exactly proof. GT6 does it on stock cars on solid braking. The gov't would never let a car that behaved like that to be sold. Show me any motor trend or car and driver braking test where a car does this.

 

[BWX]

the same applies to you
Just because someone can't drive the MR cars doesn't mean that they're broken.

And in the real world the cars give way more feedback than whatever you're getting just from the wheel and you can react to it and adapt your driving more easily.

that integra picture proves nothing, I have seen many many touring cars flip like that because they turned in too hard, got sideways then it's just rolling

No one said that the reason they are broken or the proof they are broken is because they are un-drivable.

The bottom line is that the OP has some valid points and the people trying to shout him down are using invalid arguments.