Unfair Comparison

  • Thread starter Thread starter skip0110
  • 58 comments
  • 1,744 views
About resale value, the last RL was far from a special vehicle. Anyone have figures for the 3.5L it ran? Anyways it was lacking on power and nothing on it stood above average except reliability. So it's resale value sucked. I don't think either will have a bad resale value.

What would I chose? The G35. Without cost? The G35. Why? I like nissan better than honda, RWD.

Does anyone know the specs on the AWD system of the RL? Torque splits?
 
xcsti
About resale value, the last RL was far from a special vehicle. Anyone have figures for the 3.5L it ran? Anyways it was lacking on power and nothing on it stood above average except reliability. So it's resale value sucked. I don't think either will have a bad resale value.

Agreed. The 1996-2004 RL's engine was a 210 horsepower 3.5 liter originally, and in 2002 it got a slight bump to 225 where it finished its life. The 1996-2004 RL is the longest-running Japanese car ever sold at dealers - nine years, and truth be told it didn't begin to look outdated until last year.
 
M5Power
Agreed. The 1996-2004 RL's engine was a 210 horsepower 3.5 liter originally, and in 2002 it got a slight bump to 225 where it finished its life. The 1996-2004 RL is the longest-running Japanese car ever sold at dealers - nine years, and truth be told it didn't begin to look outdated until last year.

What about the Acura NSX? Or did you mean longest-running Japanese luxury car?
 
MrktMkr1986
What about the Acura NSX? Or did you mean longest-running Japanese luxury car?

I threw the 'sold at dealers' in there specifically for the NSX, which has been a special-order car for years now. Dealers don't carry them - you can go to a dealer and fill out a form and Acura will make one and send it to a dealer, but there are no new NSXs on dealer lots (unless, say, an owner decided against it when it was delivered, or maybe an ex-demo car, but in large part NSXs are nonexistent).

Plus they've done everything but cancel the damn NSX - they sell like 40 a year.
 
M5Power
I threw the 'sold at dealers' in there specifically for the NSX, which has been a special-order car for years now.

Ahhh... 💡

M5Power
Dealers don't carry them - you can go to a dealer and fill out a form and Acura will make one and send it to a dealer, but there are no new NSXs on dealer lots (unless, say, an owner decided against it when it was delivered, or maybe an ex-demo car, but in large part NSXs are nonexistent).

Plus they've done everything but cancel the damn NSX - they sell like 40 a year.

:ouch:

Why do you suppose sales are so low? Is it that it's overpriced, lack of advertising, or do people know that the car is "just a Honda" or some combination of those factors. Even if the latter was true how would that explain Lexus, because all of their models (exc. LS430) are Toyota-based products, yet people seem to love the cars...
 
MrktMkr1986
Why do you suppose sales are so low? Is it that it's overpriced, lack of advertising, or do people know that the car is "just a Honda" or some combination of those factors.

I wouldn't call it overpriced, but do remember that it's deep into Porsche 911 territory at that point and while most would say it's not "just a Honda" it's hard for a Honda to compete with the 911, which is consistently agreed to be one of the best vehicles ever produced by everyone other than me.

Advertising is off too - they haven't even put the thing in ads in years, which is odd because it would help out Acura's image; most prospective buyers and even many owners have no idea the thing exists.
 
M5Power
I wouldn't call it overpriced, but do remember that it's deep into Porsche 911 territory at that point and while most would say it's not "just a Honda" it's hard for a Honda to compete with the 911, which is consistently agreed to be one of the best vehicles ever produced by everyone other than me.

Advertising is off too - they haven't even put the thing in ads in years, which is odd because it would help out Acura's image; most prospective buyers and even many owners have no idea the thing exists.

I think the NSXs days are numbered. Acura's own RL has more horsepower the NSX (based on manufacturers data anyway... :yuck: ). :sick:

Unless Honda decides to use the same 3.5-liter V6 engine (albeit with closer to 360-385 horsepower), there is no way the NSX is going to last much longer in its current configuration. Even the 3.0-liter V6 automatic NSX (252hp) is less powerful than a G35x! So what's the point in paying nearly $90,000 for the NSX, when you can have a 350Z (287-300hp), G35x(260hp?), or RL(300hp) for about 1/2 the money?
 
sUn
Acura RL. The look's go for the Acura.

But all other factors would point to the Infiniti in my opinion. It's cheaper, and just as quick.

MrktMkr1986
I think the NSXs days are numbered. Acura's own RL has more horsepower the NSX (based on manufacturers data anyway... :yuck: ). :sick:

Unless Honda decides to use the same 3.5-liter V6 engine (albeit with closer to 360-385 horsepower), there is no way the NSX is going to last much longer in its current configuration. Even the 3.0-liter V6 automatic NSX (252hp) is less powerful than a G35x! So what's the point in paying nearly $90,000 for the NSX, when you can have a 350Z (287-300hp), G35x(260hp?), or RL(300hp) for about 1/2 the money?
 
MrktMkr1986
Unless Honda decides to use the same 3.5-liter V6 engine (albeit with closer to 360-385 horsepower), there is no way the NSX is going to last much longer in its current configuration. Even the 3.0-liter V6 automatic NSX (252hp) is less powerful than a G35x! So what's the point in paying nearly $90,000 for the NSX, when you can have a 350Z (287-300hp), G35x(260hp?), or RL(300hp) for about 1/2 the money?

The NSX handles and accelerates like few cars on the market for under $100,000. And it's the complete package - same everyday fuel economy as a Kia Rio while still maintaining unbelievable performance statistics and good reliability. The thing just kicks ass - the 350Z and Mustang GT aren't even close.

But are they $50000 worse? I don't believe so, which is why I'd never get an NSX new, and given that early-year models are still $25000-$35000, I wouldn't get one used either.
 
I drove an RL at lunchtime today. I played with the voice activated features, roasted my butt in the heated seats and more importantly, poked it silly with the loud pedal until it emitted a lusty iVTEC bark.

There is no question in my mind why Acura charges more for this car. The percieved quality, the materials, the fit and finish of the interior is far beyond the G35 family, even after the update. The smoothness and precision of the primary controls are also a notch above the G. The feeling of heft, solidity and security in the RL basically puts it on another planet. The G feels absolutely like the entry level car that it is, compared with an RL.

And that's before you get to the trick voice activated features, which are not available on the G.. or on pretty much any car for that matter. You know how in Star Trek if Picard wants something, he just says into thin air: "Computa. Set temperature to twenty eight degrees centigrade", and Majel Barrett's voice simply replies, "Setting temperature to twenty eight degrees centigrade." The RL is exactly like that, but without the photon torpedos.

It's also the little touches in this car; if you have the (standard) rear sunshade in the up position and shift into reverse, the shade automatically comes down so you can see better. If you get an incoming call on your bluetooth phone, the computer automatically mutes the (standard) CD/MP3 player so you can have a conversation. It's like a Sharper Image on wheels. The RL, in my mind, pretty much raises the bar for a 50k luxury car.

It's not very interesting to drive, however. It pretty much falls on it's face at 8/10ths. The steering is precise, but lifeless. The body control is wallowy. Ooddles of roll is yours for the asking. The paddle shifter has an annoying delay (though the tranny does a good job of holding the gear you ask for). The car will cut a turn and hang on, but it doesn't really act like it has it's heart in it. Despite the fancy AWD system, it still plows at the limit. At least the G35 acts like it enjoys it when you drive like a hooligan.

But I doubt the target market cares. Which is good for them, because they will love the RL.

M5Power
I threw the 'sold at dealers' in there specifically for the NSX, which has been a special-order car for years now. Dealers don't carry them - you can go to a dealer and fill out a form and Acura will make one and send it to a dealer, but there are no new NSXs on dealer lots (unless, say, an owner decided against it when it was delivered, or maybe an ex-demo car, but in large part NSXs are nonexistent).

There was a one at the dealership I went to. It was Silverstone Metallic with a black interior. It was not a customer order car, nor was it a demo. It was brand new and yours for only $89,000.


M
 
///M-Spec, excellent review. If you don't mind, could you tell us if the V6 lived up to your expectations for a luxry car? Was there enough torque off ide?
 
skip0110
///M-Spec, excellent review. If you don't mind, could you tell us if the V6 lived up to your expectations for a luxry car? Was there enough torque off ide?

Thanks, skip0110. The answer is 'yes' and 'no', because the engine is a mismatch with the rest of the car.

The answer is yes because 300 hp is 300 hp and the car will get up and move. Freeway merging is no problem and the car feels very strong in the upper range. Honda also tuned the noise insolation in the car so if you're just wafting along it is dead quiet, but once the hot cams come on, it is very vocal. Nice compromise. If you are in attack mode and keep the cams on, it feels very good. It is totally refined even near the redline and feels like it will run to 18,000. This is Pure Honda.

The answer is no because I firmly believe that luxury car buyers want instant-on torque that starts as soon as you poke the throttle. But the V6 doesn't have the low end torque that a typical V8 offers. It has power, but you have to wind it out.

The numbers speak for themselves: 260 lbs-ft @ 5,000 RPM. A 545i's V8 is belting out 330 lbs-ft @ 3,600. Now to be fair, the RL is pushing out 240 lbs-ft at only 2,500 RPM, so it is NOT gutless... and it is still more powerful than it's six-cylinder competitors.

More important is the shape of the curve, and unfortunately, the motor is one of those with a totally flat curve from 2k all the way 6k. It is the kind of curve that excites only engineers. Efficient, but uninteresting. --*To be perfectly honest, my 330i ZHP motor has the same problem*.

Ultimately, the motor is somewhat at odds with the rest of the car. It is enjoys being wrung-out and makes good power when it is balls-out, but the chassis, steering, transmission is tuned for leisurely travel and squirms a little when you lean on it. Bottom line though, it is still a very good car and a good value.

I bet if Honda installed this engine/powertrain in a TL (or TSX!) with the A-Spec suspension tuning, recalibrated the AWD software for more rear-drive bias, it would make an awesome car.


M
 
///M-Spec
Thanks, skip0110. The answer is 'yes' and 'no', because the engine is a mismatch with the rest of the car.

The answer is yes because 300 hp is 300 hp and the car will get up and move. Freeway merging is no problem and the car feels very strong in the upper range. Honda also tuned the noise insolation in the car so if you're just wafting along it is dead quiet, but once the hot cams come on, it is very vocal. Nice compromise. If you are in attack mode and keep the cams on, it feels very good. It is totally refined even near the redline and feels like it will run to 18,000. This is Pure Honda.

The answer is no because I firmly believe that luxury car buyers want instant-on torque that starts as soon as you poke the throttle. But the V6 doesn't have the low end torque that a typical V8 offers. It has power, but you have to wind it out.

The numbers speak for themselves: 260 lbs-ft @ 5,000 RPM. A 545i's V8 is belting out 330 lbs-ft @ 3,600. Now to be fair, the RL is pushing out 240 lbs-ft at only 2,500 RPM, so it is NOT gutless... and it is still more powerful than it's six-cylinder competitors.

More important is the shape of the curve, and unfortunately, the motor is one of those with a totally flat curve from 2k all the way 6k. It is the kind of curve that excites only engineers. Efficient, but uninteresting. --*To be perfectly honest, my 330i ZHP motor has the same problem*.

Ultimately, the motor is somewhat at odds with the rest of the car. It is enjoys being wrung-out and makes good power when it is balls-out, but the chassis, steering, transmission is tuned for leisurely travel and squirms a little when you lean on it. Bottom line though, it is still a very good car and a good value.

I bet if Honda installed this engine/powertrain in a TL (or TSX!) with the A-Spec suspension tuning, recalibrated the AWD software for more rear-drive bias, it would make an awesome car.


M

Impressive review! :)

But do you actually believe those advertised horsepower and torque figures? It's all marketing (to either make it seem more powerful for sales or less powerful for insurance) if you ask me... :odd:
 
MrktMkr1986
Impressive review! :)

But do you actually believe those advertised horsepower and torque figures? It's all marketing (to either make it seem more powerful for sales or less powerful for insurance) if you ask me... :odd:

Thank you :) It depends on who is quoting the figures. If it is Honda, I would absolutely believe it. Shoot, Honda has a tendancy to low ball from time to time --ask anyone with a '04+ S2000.

If it is .. ummmm.. say Mazda, for example, I might want to see an actual dyno pull from an owner.


M
 
///M-Spec
Thank you :) It depends on who is quoting the figures. If it is Honda, I would absolutely believe it. Shoot, Honda has a tendancy to low ball from time to time --ask anyone with a '04+ S2000.

If it is .. ummmm.. say Mazda, for example, I might want to see an actual dyno pull from an owner.


M


OK, so Honda yes, Mazda no. Got it!
BTW, I knew about the Honda S2000. Would you say that's for insurance purposes or is that just something Honda likes to do?
 
MrktMkr1986
OK, so Honda yes, Mazda no. Got it!
BTW, I knew about the Honda S2000. Would you say that's for insurance purposes or is that just something Honda likes to do?

Don't know for sure. A lot of people guess insurance. CAFE certification might also be a factor. Internal reasons too like competition against an in-house brand. A lot of cars over the years have been slightly under-rated. LS1 Camaro/Firebirds. SRT-4 Neons. 3.2 E36 M3s.


M
 
For that matter, the SOHC Neons are underrated at 132 hp and DOHC NEons are overrated at 150hp. That was so the stock numbers looked farther apart. Though the DOHC has more development potential than the SOHC, it takes some work to get it there.

I'm hoping that in a few years when it comes time to buy a car for me, they have a 270-hp AWD version of the Acura TL. I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. Even if they gave the 200-hp TSX the 240-hp Accord V6 and AWD it would be even more of a honey.
 
neon_duke
For that matter, the SOHC Neons are underrated at 132 hp and DOHC NEons are overrated at 150hp. That was so the stock numbers looked farther apart. Though the DOHC has more development potential than the SOHC, it takes some work to get it there.

I'm hoping that in a few years when it comes time to buy a car for me, they have a 270-hp AWD version of the Acura TL. I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. Even if they gave the 200-hp TSX the 240-hp Accord V6 and AWD it would be even more of a honey.

Know of any other under/over rated cars in terms of horsepower numbers?
(Other than my Turbo Coupe, of course :sly: )

Also, a TSX with a 6-speed, all-wheel drive, and a 240-horsepower Accord would be perfect competition for the new Mazdaspeed 6! :drool:
<< still prefer turbos, though... :sly: :D
 
///M-Spec
LS1 Camaro/Firebirds.
Try and and convince M5Power of this.
MrktMkr1986
Know of any other under/over rated cars in terms of horsepower numbers?
Camaro ZL1 anyone? :dunce:

I have a feeling the Supercharged Nissan Xterra/Fronteir was overrated at 210 hp. It was still slow.
 
skip0110
Try and and convince M5Power of this..

:lol: Stubborn bastage. It's not like it's hard to read a few pages at LS1.com.

Know of any other under/over rated cars in terms of horsepower numbers?

Fresh off the top of my head is the Mazda RX-8.

First they said 250+. Then the car is released and it's 247. Then whoops, it's 238. Then owners get dyno runs that range between 170-185 whp and a tuner puts the motor on an engine dyno and everyone except Mazda agrees it's more like 215-220. Poor guys. At least the rest of the car is 👍 👍 👍


M
 
The current-gen Sentra SE-R is overrated a little as well. It was originally listed as 175 hp but now it's dropped to 170, and performance numbers seem to indicate it's more in the 160-65 range.
 
///M-Spec
There was a one at the dealership I went to. It was Silverstone Metallic with a black interior. It was not a customer order car, nor was it a demo. It was brand new and yours for only $89,000.

Sometimes dealers order them to entice customers. Actually, sometimes they can, I've never heard of it happening. Certainly not around here anyway.

Don't know for sure. A lot of people guess insurance. CAFE certification might also be a factor. Internal reasons too like competition against an in-house brand. A lot of cars over the years have been slightly under-rated. LS1 Camaro/Firebirds. SRT-4 Neons. 3.2 E36 M3s.

When I drive the vehicle from the dealer to the unbiased dyno and measure it myself I'll buy it. It would be absolutely stupid for a manufacturer to underrate a vehicle and many times people just say they do it for no particular reason. I don't believe someone like you would actually think this.

The current-gen Sentra SE-R is overrated a little as well. It was originally listed as 175 hp but now it's dropped to 170, and performance numbers seem to indicate it's more in the 160-65 range.

Let me put forth a theory on why this is: the Sentra SE-R is rated at 165.

Aside that, this is absolutely absurd. A loss of five horsepower, or maybe ten? A gain or loss of ten horsepower cannot be felt when you're talking about 160-175. It's completely absurd to say it's rated at 170 but 'feels like' 163. Seven horsepower? Could you detect the difference between a 50 and 52 pound weight? It's the same deal.
 
M5Power
It would be absolutely stupid for a manufacturer to underrate a vehicle and many times people just say they do it for no particular reason. I don't believe someone like you would actually think this.
I can think of plenty of reasons why a car might be underrated. In the case of the LS1 Camaros, GM had to underrate the engines so that the Corvette engine would remain superior to the engine is the much cheaper Camaro. In other cases, the car may be underrated for insurance reasons. Or, the manufacturer may intentionally underestimate the power in performance cars that are sensitive to ambient temperature/humidity/gasoline quality (think turbocharged cars) so that owners will be pleasantly surprised even when their cars are dynoed in less-than-perfect conditions.
Aside that, this is absolutely absurd. A loss of five horsepower, or maybe ten? A gain or loss of ten horsepower cannot be felt when you're talking about 160-175. It's completely absurd to say it's rated at 170 but 'feels like' 163. Seven horsepower? Could you detect the difference between a 50 and 52 pound weight? It's the same deal.
Nobody said anything 'feels like' anything else. If a car continually dynos well below what is acceptable from driveline loss, it is safe to say that the car is underrated. Even a chassis dyno can detect a change in 10 hp, and if the engine is given enough time too cool down between pulls, they should be within a few hp of each other. Don't think that the dyno is highly imprecise--most of the error is in estimating driveline losses.
 
M5Power
Sometimes dealers order them to entice customers. Actually, sometimes they can, I've never heard of it happening. Certainly not around here anyway.

I asked Salescritter how the dealership aquired the NSX because I was under the impression it was special order only. He said that the dealership was a "Precision Acura" dealer, which was some sort special program or flagship dealer status, and Precision dealers get to keep an NSX on the lot if they choose to. I have no clue what the flooring costs are on an NSX, but I have to assume that by now, Honda is already subsidizing it.

Know of any other under/over rated cars in terms of horsepower numbers?

I just remember another one. The BMW 323i/323is '97-99 and '99-01. The 323 was actually a 2.5 liter, not a 2.3 as the name might suggest. In 1997, BMW rated the 2.5 at 170 hp. In truth, they were much closer to 180-185.

The 2.5s were underrated purposely to protect the 328i/328is, which was accurately rated at 190 hp. (hey, who was going to pay an extra 3k for 10 more horses?)

Once the 330 was done and the top 3er had 225, BMW was able to rate the 2.5 at "180", though it is probably more.


M
 
skip0110
I can think of plenty of reasons why a car might be underrated. In the case of the LS1 Camaros, GM had to underrate the engines so that the Corvette engine would remain superior to the engine is the much cheaper Camaro.

So people have told me. Seems like an easy story - I've never seen convincing proof. We all know people would buy the Corvette anyway; look at it now - GTO and Corvette share a power rating and the Corvette's still ten zillion times more popular.

In other cases, the car may be underrated for insurance reasons.

Except insurance companies don't look at horsepower as a major factor for setting insurance rates anymore! This one's totally false.

If a car continually dynos well below what is acceptable from driveline loss, it is safe to say that the car is underrated.

Continually being the key word. Everyone's ready to jump to conclusions because one vehicle doesn't feel quite fast enough, or a local dyno rates it a bit low. I stand with all manufacturers when it comes to power ratings, with the sole exception of the Typhoon and Syclone.
 
M5Power
So people have told me. Seems like an easy story - I've never seen convincing proof. We all know people would buy the Corvette anyway; look at it now - GTO and Corvette share a power rating and the Corvette's still ten zillion times more popular.

Chevy could raise the power rating of the Corvette for 2006. And if not, they'll have the Z06 model to fall back on.

Continually being the key word. Everyone's ready to jump to conclusions because one vehicle doesn't feel quite fast enough, or a local dyno rates it a bit low. I stand with all manufacturers when it comes to power ratings, with the sole exception of the Typhoon and Syclone.

...and the Thunderbird Turbo Coupe... :sly:

Seriously though, I still think the numbers are mostly about advertising. It is a known fact that Lexus (especially their V8 models) are seriously overrated when it comes to horsepower numbers.

Read this...

Not trying to convince you or anything. :)
Just showing you what I believe and why I believe it.
 

Latest Posts

Back