Unrealistic Difficulty

[jjaisli]

In real life yes, this is 100% correct. In this game I highly doubt that this level of programming has gone into the game. Based on all the other quirks I seriously doubt they took the time.

You're really a piece of work. Yes, that is INDEED the case. I take it you've never had an online race in the rain before? As the track dries, the grip slowly returns. But some corners remain wet and very slick. Other sections are nearly dry.

The AMG challenge is pre-programmed. If you run that stage, the grip level will always be consistent no matter how many times you run it. But when you do the full lap, they programmed it so that the track is NOT as wet as it is during the sectionals. That does NOT mean that the game is using a different physics model.

 

[Resident Troll]

You're really a piece of work. Yes, that is INDEED the case. I take it you've never had an online race in the rain before? As the track dries, the grip slowly returns. But some corners remain wet and very slick. Other sections are nearly dry.

The AMG challenge is pre-programmed. If you run that stage, the grip level will always be consistent no matter how many times you run it. But when you do the full lap, they programmed it so that the track is NOT as wet as it is during the sectionals. That does NOT mean that the game is using a different physics model.

Aside from your opinion, how do you know this?

 

[Exorcet]

The car weighs very little

That's a good thing, always. It means the tires don't need to work very hard to keep the car going the right way.

Anyway, on the topic. I don't think the AMG rain event was overly difficult, though the rain physics may not be as good as in the dry. It's probably related to wheel slip/spin which GT doesn't get right at all.

 

[Griffith500]

You're really a piece of work. Yes, that is INDEED the case. I take it you've never had an online race in the rain before? As the track dries, the grip slowly returns. But some corners remain wet and very slick. Other sections are nearly dry.

The AMG challenge is pre-programmed. If you run that stage, the grip level will always be consistent no matter how many times you run it. But when you do the full lap, they programmed it so that the track is NOT as wet as it is during the sectionals. That does NOT mean that the game is using a different physics model.

Your latter point is also exemplified by the first SLS challenge (i.e. the second difficulty level of the AMG events) where the weather suddenly becomes overcast on the final "full lap". I'm guessing this was intended as hinting at the impending task of tackling the wet weather.

Also, when you load the time-change variant of the Nordschleife online, sometimes it's overcast - other times, it's sunny. The track grip level is different in both cases. It seems they did, indeed, take the time. Which might be why so much else fell by the way-side...

 

[jjaisli]

How do I know? Because I've run 90+ minute online races from the ring where the rain intermittently comes and goes and causes havoc for 2-3 laps, followed by 2-3 more laps where some corners are dry and others are still very wet. And because having 'dynamic' grip and weather affects is a big deal in this game. It's not perfect. It's not 100% realistic (something Exorcet just touched on above) but YES it is functional. For goodness sakes, it's not my OPINION that GT5 has dynamic levels of grip.

 

[edgecrusher]

It wasn't exactly my 'favorite' event, but I'm amazed, after all this time, with so many posts on the subject, how people are still a bit confused over the the Top Gear Challenge and what exactly is going on. It was purposely designed to be a maniacal twist in contrasts. The VW bus, the last vehicle you would possible think of taking on the track, you have to really learn to draft the other vehicles and when you move out from the slipstream, you have to throw it around as if it was a sports car. The Lotus on the other hand, one of the best handling road cars ever built, is equipped with Comfort Hard tires--like you'd find on a 25 year old econobox or mini van. You have to be very careful and subtle in your movements and do everything extra genitally to achieve gold. Rather brilliant really. But it doesn't mean Lotus 'handles like crap'. People just aren't paying attention to the big picture.

Sorry, but I had to point it out. What is "extra genitally"? Go Freud.

 

[Resident Troll]

How do I know? Because I've run 90+ minute online races from the ring where the rain intermittently comes and goes and causes havoc for 2-3 laps, followed by 2-3 more laps where some corners are dry and others are still very wet. And because having 'dynamic' grip and weather affects is a big deal in this game. It's not perfect. It's not 100% realistic (something Exorcet just touched on above) but YES it is functional. For goodness sakes, it's not my OPINION that GT5 has dynamic levels of grip.

Bottom line when you observe what I am observing you can conclude one of two things A - They are lazy programmers and are using unrealistic physics to make it a "challenge" instead of really programing one or B - They put so much time and effort into the programming that it is near real life. Well based on all the other shortcomings in the game from crappy menu system to save files that will corrupt your game if they grow too large leads me to believe A is the case. Sure the die-hard's want to believe B but I just do not see it. Look at the Lotus challenge, same thing. If that was how the Lotus handled in real life it never would have been allowed on the streets. Do not call yourself the real driving simulator when you are not.

 

[paskowitz]

I beat the all the AMG challenges on my first try and each by at least 2-5 seconds. I thought the ones in the rain were only mildly challenging. The Alfa 8c TT and Murcielago race are MUCH harder.

 

[Resident Troll]

I beat the all the AMG challenges on my first try and each by at least 2-5 seconds. I thought the ones in the rain were only mildly challenging. The Alfa 8c TT and Murcielago race are MUCH harder.

Beating the challenges never was the issue. Just that there is a certain level of performance expectation from a car, rain or shine and that I feel it is not represented in some of the challenges and special events and PD took the easy way out and just flubbed it. Of course these are just my opinions and I have zero proof other than what I am seeing.

 

[jjaisli]

Sorry, but I had to point it out. What is "extra genitally"? Go Freud.

Yikes! How embarrassing. (fixed)

Bottom line when you observe what I am observing you can conclude one of two things A - They are lazy programmers and are using unrealistic physics to make it a "challenge" instead of really programing one or B - They put so much time and effort into the programming that it is near real life. Well based on all the other shortcomings in the game from crappy menu system to save files that will corrupt your game if they grow too large leads me to believe A is the case. Sure the die-hard's want to believe B but I just do not see it. Look at the Lotus challenge, same thing. If that was how the Lotus handled in real life it never would have been allowed on the streets. Do not call yourself the real driving simulator when you are not.

The Lotus Challenge was explained earlier in this thread. But I suppose you don't believe the game simulates different levels of tire grip either. Look, it's pointless to argue. I've tried to explain it. Others have tried to explain it. But you've made up your mind it seems.

 

[Resident Troll]

The Lotus Challenge was explained earlier in this thread. But I suppose you don't believe the game simulates different levels of tire grip either. Look, it's pointless to argue. I've tried to explain it. Others have tried to explain it. But you've made up your mind it seems.

So you honestly believe that if you took a real world Lotus, put on comfort tires that is how it would drive? really? So be it. I am speechless.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

That's a good thing, always. It means the tires don't need to work very hard to keep the car going the right way.

In some sense yes it takes less force with a lighter mass to alter it's velocity and direction. But with more mass that force can more easily be applied.

F1 cars generate around double their mass in downforce which is what makes them corner so fast. The GTR was designed from the get go to be in the 1700kg region because that weight would allow more traction. And it's also why front wheel drive cars don't get stuck in snow as much as rear wheel because they have more mass over the wheels pressing them into the ground for traction.

And back to the Elise, your bog standard 1400kg family hatch on economy tyres won't lose traction as easily as a car as light as the Elise on the same tyres because it's weight is pressing the tyres into the road harder creating a higher degree of surface contact and generating more heat in them improving adhesion.

 

[Resident Troll]

In some sense yes it takes less force with a lighter mass to alter it's velocity and direction. But with more mass that force can more easily be applied.

F1 cars generate around double their mass in downforce which is what makes them corner so fast. The GTR was designed from the get go to be in the 1700kg region because that weight would allow more traction. And it's also why front wheel drive cars don't get stuck in snow as much as rear wheel because they have more mass over the wheels pressing them into the ground for traction.

And back to the Elise, your bog standard 1400kg family hatch on economy tyres won't lose traction as easily as a car as light as the Elise on the same tyres because it's weight is pressing the tyres into the road harder creating a higher degree of surface contact and generating more heat in them improving adhesion.

But an F1 car doing 50 MPH is generating very little down-force but still wont spin out at 50MPH by tapping the breaks. Same as the Lotus, sure it is 1/2 the weight of a family sedan but it is still heavy and putting some good downward force on the tires. No way would any car act like the Lotus does with comfort tires on, not possible if it wants to be street legal and pass safety tests. Even the cheapest tires out there have to provide a reasonable amount of grip and performance at highway speeds. The Lotus is completely misrepresented, heck take the exact same car, same tires, same weather and load up the track, it wont perform the same as the challenge, again leading to my theory that PD flubbs the physics in place of real programing.

 

[jjaisli]

So you honestly believe that if you took a real world Lotus, put on comfort tires that is how it would drive? really? So be it. I am speechless.

In a sense, yes, this is unrealistic. Because comfort hard tires are supposed to represent the most basic tires available--like something you'd see on 1981 Fiat Panda. And nobody would make tires of that ilk that would even fit on the Elise's rims. (Just like you really couldn't or shouldn't be able to buy racing soft tires for a 65' Fiat 500). But if you would mount a lousy, horrible 155/75/13 tire with no grip onto the front and back of the Elise, it probably wouldn't handle much differently than it does in the challenge.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

But an F1 car doing 50 MPH is generating very little down-force but still wont spin out at 50MPH by tapping the breaks. Same as the Lotus, sure it is 1/2 the weight of a family sedan but it is still heavy and putting some good downward force on the tires. No way would any car act like the Lotus does with comfort tires on, not possible if it wants to be street legal and pass safety tests. Even the cheapest tires out there have to provide a reasonable amount of grip and performance at highway speeds. The Lotus is completely misrepresented, heck take the exact same car, same tires, same weather and load up the track, it wont perform the same as the challenge, again leading to my theory that PD flubbs the physics in place of real programing.

Because it's on racing rubber not comfort hard

And the Lotus, as has been said a thousand times doesn't come on those tyres from the factory, it comes on high grip sports compound on which it is safe.

 

[Resident Troll]

In a sense, yes, this is unrealistic. Because comfort hard tires are supposed to represent the most basic tires available--like something you'd see on 1981 Fiat Panda. And nobody would make tires of that ilk that would even fit on the Elise's rims. (Just like you really couldn't or shouldn't be able to buy racing soft tires for a 65' Fiat 500). But if you would mount a lousy, horrible 155/75/13 tire with no grip onto the front and back of the Elise, it probably wouldn't handle much differently than it does in the challenge.

I guess when I think comfort tire I think of a plain jane tire, nothing fancy. A tire that would actually fit on a Lotus, something someone would put on because they are cheap and bought the Lotus because it was a cool color. But I would expect that tire to have a reasonable amount of performance and safety built into it or a big warning sign on the car that states it becomes a bus on ice when any tire but sport is installed.

 

[RogsR34UK]

I just spent 5 minutes with that Lotus Challenge and one thing I do not find it, is fun,

After being disqualified a number of times because an AI (Artificial Incompetent) car drove into me, I Quit the game to preserve my sanity (and the controllers life!).

On that AMG Challenge I managed to SIlver everything in the rain. Admittedly I was using a few more Assists than my normal ABS of 1. I won't even mention the artifially restricted Citroen C4 in the Loeb Challenge on Chaminix (which I did get a Gold for)!!

Another thing that seemed to portray a car in a very poor light (to my mind anyway) was the Megane at the Nurburgring GP in the license test (B license). I did eventually manage to Gold it though.

 

[Resident Troll]

And the Lotus, as has been said a thousand times doesn't come on those tyres from the factory, it comes on high grip sports compound on which it is safe.

Everyone understands that but unless the tire installed is a big-wheel, plastic tire it would not handle like it does, no way. All cars have to be able to perform to a certain level. And it is to be expected that not everyone is going to put on the same tires when they need to be replaced. It is also to be expected that ANY tire I choose to put on my car that fits the factory wheel properly will perform to highway/street standards. I can not expect it to perform on a track but no car should spin out at the slightest touch of the brake or slide through turns like it is on ice when it is actually the middle of a dry sunny day on a nice, paved track, a paved, completely level track (it is an airfield).

 

[jjaisli]

To be fair, there is a big difference between Comfort Hard, Comfort Medium and Comfort Soft. The way I see it, comfort hard tires are below what you would probably find on any modern vehicle. I think of them as almost pre-radial tires that were mostly rubber. HARD rubber. Comfort medium is maybe an 'average' tire for a sedan. Comfort soft is a performance tire. Sport Hard is an Extreme performance summer tire. And Sports medium is already at 'track' tire level. Although I don't believe they're intended as slicks. Those are racing tires.

But in general, tires, the differences between the tires, the grip levels that they have IS a flaw in this game, no doubt. Personally, I think Racing soft, and perhaps even racing medium tires are simply too grippy to be realistic in any way, shape or form. Racing medium would maybe be equal to the soft spec F1 tires used during the height of the Bridgestone/Michelin tire war. But it's not realistic to think of these tires being available for any car in the game, not to mention their narrow effective temperature ranges or wear.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Everyone understands that but unless the tire installed is a big-wheel, plastic tire it would not handle like it does, no way. All cars have to be able to perform to a certain level. And it is to be expected that not everyone is going to put on the same tires when they need to be replaced. It is also to be expected that ANY tire I choose to put on my car that fits the factory wheel properly will perform to highway/street standards. I can not expect it to perform on a track but no car should spin out at the slightest touch of the brake or slide through turns like it is on ice when it is actually the middle of a dry sunny day on a nice, paved track, a paved, completely level track (it is an airfield).

That's just pure fiction. Tyre tread is the only legal requirement not lateral grip. If the car was unsafe in the form it leaves the factory they could be open to legal action, but not if you put none stock components on it. If I downgrade the brakes on a Veyron to Lupo brakes then kick off because it couldn't stop me from 200mph I'd be told where to go.

In fact if you put those tyres on it in real life without notifying your insurer then that would void your policy.

The e46 BMW M3 CSL was sold with tyres that have the bare minimum legal amount of tread and a warning that they don't work in the cold or wet, yet that is a road legal car.

 

[Resident Troll]

To be fair, there is a big difference between Comfort Hard, Comfort Medium and Comfort Soft. The way I see it, comfort hard tires are below what you would probably find on any modern vehicle. I think of them as almost pre-radial tires that were mostly rubber. HARD rubber. Comfort medium is maybe an 'average' tire for a sedan. Comfort soft is a performance tire. Sport Hard is an Extreme performance summer tire. And Sports medium is already at 'track' tire level. Although I don't believe they're intended as slicks. Those are racing tires.

But in general, tires, the differences between the tires, the grip levels that they have IS a flaw in this game, no doubt. Personally, I think Racing soft, and perhaps even racing medium tires are simply too grippy to be realistic in any way, shape or form. Racing medium would maybe be equal to the soft spec F1 tires used during the height of the Bridgestone/Michelin tire war. But it's not realistic to think of these tires being available for any car in the game, not to mention their narrow effective temperature ranges or wear.

👍

 

[StevenDunn99]

Do not mix up how any car handles in Aspec racing or online compared to how it is represented in a license test or special event.

As with the seasonals; PD make a challenge (eg by putting on Comfort Tyres) and experienced GT players like myself, love it. PD make it easy and we think what is point ? Less experienced GT players think the other way around.

For goodness sake GT5 has so few real challenges...so man (or woman) up, play the game and rise to the challenge.


P.S I owned an Elise for 3 years, utterly brilliant car. 👍👍👍

 

[Exorcet]

F1 cars generate around double their mass in downforce which is what makes them corner so fast. The GTR was designed from the get go to be in the 1700kg region because that weight would allow more traction. And it's also why front wheel drive cars don't get stuck in snow as much as rear wheel because they have more mass over the wheels pressing them into the ground for traction.

But the F1 and GT-R aren't comparable. The F1 weights more, but it has far less mass. If you we use really accurate terms, more weight is better, but more mass is worse. Weight and mass are proportional, so while the GT-R gains traction with its higher weight, it losses all the gains because its mass goes up. Basically, all the extra traction is lost fighting the extra mass.

The F1 on the other hand is free to use the extra traction to enhance performance.

On drivetrain and snow, I think it's more complex than that. The weight shifts to the rear of the car, causing the rear wheels to grip more, this happens no matter the drivetrain. The RWD car digs into the snow while the FWD car just slips. This probably doesn't capture all that's happening, but remember, the surface should dictate the dynamic physics. RWD has better weight transfer on dry roads, so it has better weight transfer in any conditions.

 

[Resident Troll]

P.S I owned an Elise for 3 years, utterly brilliant car. 👍👍👍

I bet it is, I love that car. Of course after driving it in the challenge, no way I would buy one , this is the driving simulator, it has to be accurate.

 

[WolfpackS2k]

LMAO, did someone in this thread really say the GT-R performs so well b/c of how heavy it is. LOL, good one. I guess that explains why Mercedes S Class sedans are so nimble. The lighter car will handle and change direction better EVERY time. It's utterly ridiculous to think otherwise.

Going back to the original argument of the thread I am inclined to agree with the OP. I don't have a lot of experience (thus far) in GT5 in rainy conditions but I experienced it a bit last night doing a race on a wet track. I was driving an SLK 230 on comfort soft tires and the car would do nothing but fishtail. 40mph in 3rd gear while turning? Forget about it, oversteer city.

I've driven on a race track before in a downpour situation with lots of standing water on the track in a vehicle with tires very poorly suited for water (think sport medium) and I had nowhere near the level of difficulty I experienced in GT5. In real life I had hydroplanning problems above 65 mph but grip through turns was adequate unless you floored it and cranked the wheel all the way to the side. Maybe it's b/c I was using the DS3 controller instead of a wheel but it felt way too difficult to be realistic.👎

 

[Jacob6875]

The stock RX8 in this game has terrible physics in the rain. If I go anywhere near the accelerator under say 70/80 mph while I am turning I have to fight the back of the car from coming around.

Now in real life I don't crash every time I merge onto the freeway in the rain........... so something is wrong.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

On drivetrain and snow, I think it's more complex than that. The weight shifts to the rear of the car, causing the rear wheels to grip more, this happens no matter the drivetrain. The RWD car digs into the snow while the FWD car just slips. This probably doesn't capture all that's happening, but remember, the surface should dictate the dynamic physics. RWD has better weight transfer on dry roads, so it has better weight transfer in any conditions.

What? That's why this winter the roundabouts of Britain were littered with BMW's?

It's simple physics, when setting off in snow you creep too slowly for the weight to really shift back, but in an RWD there is less weight pushing the driven wheels into the road than an FWD meaning they have less traction and will spin up.

Narrower tyres also help as the weight is concentrated to a smaller surface area again increasing the traction applied from the engine.

 

[Aus_Azn]

Same thing with the Top Gear Lotus Challenge.

There is NO WAY that a real car would start sliding and breaking out if you carefully touch the brakes, going 50km/h in a straight line. Yet that POS Lotus does exactly that.

Either that Lotus is a ridiculously bad car, or it's got wooden wheels, or GT5 is just being unrealistically hard.

It basically has wooden wheels... You're forced to run that race on comfort tires.

 

[Resident Troll]

It basically has wooden wheels... You're forced to run that race on comfort tires.

I think you are correct.

 

[brambos]

It basically has wooden wheels... You're forced to run that race on comfort tires.

So are wooden wheels considered 'comfort' these days?