Unrealistic Difficulty

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BigYoSpeck
That's just pure fiction. Tyre tread is the only legal requirement not lateral grip. If the car was unsafe in the form it leaves the factory they could be open to legal action, but not if you put none stock components on it. If I downgrade the brakes on a Veyron to Lupo brakes then kick off because it couldn't stop me from 200mph I'd be told where to go.

In fact if you put those tyres on it in real life without notifying your insurer then that would void your policy.

The E46 BMW M3 CSL was sold with tyres that have the bare minimum legal amount of tread and a warning that they don't work in the cold or wet, yet that is a road legal car.
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👍 This.

(BTW) It was more than a warning, you had to sign a disclaimer saying that you wouldn't sue BMW if you crashed in the wet :P
 
I'd love to know how many people in this argument actually have any significant experience with cars. (Significant being track days not driving daily to work.) Compared to how many frankly have 0 place to be discussing anything related to REAL car physics.

Here's something else all of you need to stop making assumptions about what the development team did and did not do. You do not know what the dev team intended with comfort hard tires at all, all you can do is assume. same thing goes with the ring and the rain statements, and surely numerous other statements I just glazed over.
 
Resident Troll
I bet it is, I love that car. Of course after driving it in the challenge, no way I would buy one :), this is the driving simulator, it has to be accurate.
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Not sure if I read you right... but

my point is NONE of cars should be considered as anything like they are IRL in the license tests and SE challenges. It is just PD's way of making making something difficult, and 👍 to anything challenging in GT5 in my book.
 
I found it really easy & golded most of them first or second time, but then again I know The Ring off by heart from GT4.


:)
 
BigYoSpeck
What? That's why this winter the roundabouts of Britain were littered with BMW's?
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Yes. I didn't say that RWD was better for the snow, only that the tires do have more grip under acceleration. It's just that the grip is converted into a snow blower, not forward motion.

It's simple physics, when setting off in snow you creep too slowly for the weight to really shift back, but in an RWD there is less weight pushing the driven wheels into the road than an FWD meaning they have less traction and will spin up.
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Unless friction is zero, you'll always be pushed on a solid surface. The problem is, snow isn't always solid. If the friction force between the wheel and the snow is greater than the friction force between the snow and snow, the wheels will just tear up the snow.

If your car is stuck before you even move, then no drivetrain will save you. Like I said, unless friction is exactly 0, the car will move.

You're trying to treat snow like a low friction version of tarmac, but that doesn't work. Snow easily deforms, tarmac doesn't. It's the deformation that makes snow driving what it is, much like with rain. Rain isn't just dry grip * .5. With rain varying water layer depth, currents and flows, and deformation by tires contributes to more complex dynamics than what is seen on dry road.

That's why the snow comparison doesn't really translate to dry road.

A bit of an anecdote, but a 4WD Audi got stock on my block over the winter. Some one with a truck tried to pull it out, he got stuck because he was just digging snow. Who came to the rescue? A puny ATV on huge tires. The ATV was light enough compared to its tire area that it wouldn't sink. It pulled the truck out and then the Audi.



Narrower tyres also help as the weight is concentrated to a smaller surface area again increasing the traction applied from the engine.
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Narrow ones would increase the pressure on the ground, causing the car to sink potentially. Winter tires take advantage of this through treading, but the goal isn't to bump up friction, it's to give the tire more surface area. Though this isn't an issue in GT.
 
BigYoSpeck
Well I can't comment on your experience because it doesn't sound at all how I found it. I don't recall slowing to 15mph for any corner or it ploughing like it was on ice and the sectors were exactly the same as the full lap.

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WOW some nice corner cutting here :lol:


raVer
 
StevenDunn99
Not sure if I read you right... but

my point is NONE of cars should be considered as anything like they are IRL in the license tests and SE challenges. It is just PD's way of making making something difficult, and 👍 to anything challenging in GT5 in my book.
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My original point exactly.
 
Just a comment with regards the Lotus Elise challenge to some of those complaining in this thread - the car has excellent handling, but very poor grip.

If you put better tryes on it, the car would still have excellent handling, but have better grip.

Handling and grip are not the same things - try not to get the two confused...
 
I think, don't know if it's still so, that in Germany, there is a Tuv-Requirement for the tire size and width. I bought a old Bmw 635 a while ago, and on the German car papers where 2 tires sizes, and from what I was told, if I put any other size tire under the car, my car would not be road legal in Germany anymore.
 
Carlos Fandango
Just a comment with regards the Lotus Elise challenge to some of those complaining in this thread - the car has excellent handling, but very poor grip.

If you put better tryes on it, the car would still have excellent handling, but have better grip.

Handling and grip are not the same things - try not to get the two confused...
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But without one the other is irrelevant. They are tied together significantly.
 
Soullessvessel
I'd love to know how many people in this argument actually have any significant experience with cars. (Significant being track days not driving daily to work.) Compared to how many frankly have 0 place to be discussing anything related to REAL car physics.

Here's something else all of you need to stop making assumptions about what the development team did and did not do. You do not know what the dev team intended with comfort hard tires at all, all you can do is assume. same thing goes with the ring and the rain statements, and surely numerous other statements I just glazed over.
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I would venture to guess not many. I am far from a race car driver but have some track time and some decent autocross time. A few years later and a few kids later priorities change. Now I race modified 1/10th touring cars. Not a real car but physics still apply along with proper tire selection and suspension tuning. I swear my RC is harder to dial in than my real cars.

As for the developers, none of us have seen the source code let alone have a clue what they were thinking so everything is an assumption based on final results.
 
BigYoSpeck
That's just pure fiction. Tyre tread is the only legal requirement not lateral grip. If the car was unsafe in the form it leaves the factory they could be open to legal action, but not if you put none stock components on it. If I downgrade the brakes on a Veyron to Lupo brakes then kick off because it couldn't stop me from 200mph I'd be told where to go.

In fact if you put those tyres on it in real life without notifying your insurer then that would void your policy.

The e46 BMW M3 CSL was sold with tyres that have the bare minimum legal amount of tread and a warning that they don't work in the cold or wet, yet that is a road legal car.
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I think you are stretching a bit. No one is talking about swapping out brakes, swapping wooden tires for rubber or anything else and no one is talking about racing. The simple discussion is if I fit a tire on a car, one designed to fit the stock wheel, it should have a certain level of safety performance. Doing highway speeds should be required. As for the CSL, that was a purpose built street car for the track and if I put on standard tires would still be able to drive on the highway rain or shine. May not race well but that is not what is being discussed. The stock tires on a Z06 are quite wide and I would venture to guess any tire that would fit that wheel would provide good performance. Now if I swap out the stock wheels with 15" steel wheels and 15" tires that may be a different story but that is not what is being discussed.
 
Agreed with whoever said this was easy, just drive smoothly and brake earlier than normal and you should have no problem beating the gold targets by at least a second. You just can't try to drive as if it were dry, forget the dry breaking points and learn the track over again. Thats the best advice i can give.:)
 
Again, this challenge is also on Comfort tires. It's just made difficult for difficulty's sake.

Watching that posted video, nice ASM usage.
 
Silver-Sylph
I found this challenge the easiest...
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It is quite easy I agree, I found most of the licenses harder, mainly because I know the track well. In the wet versions it's best to brake early (seriously important for good times). If you are having traction issues at lower speed corners, use one gear higher than you would in the dry.

I also think the time limit in the wet challenges are maybe a bit too easy. I span out on the full run once trying to avoid the AI, and still made it with a few seconds to spare.

If you have difficuilties beating the time, it's most likely because you haven't learn't the track well enough. Or that your not yet, used to the rain physics in the game. This is based on using a wheel though I haven't tried with pad.

Real life would be much more difficuilt, GT5 lets you off way to easy when you touch a curb on the Ring. IRL I'd say there's an 90% chance that something will go wrong :lol:

Lotus challenge was definately more difficuilt, but moderately easy after you master the car.
 
I'm sure I'm not the only one that found the AMG Rain challenges fairly easy, and fun. If you've ever driven a powerful FR car in the rain (and bearing in mind the Nurburgring has a reputation for being fairly slippery) you can't possibly say its unrealistic. I did these challenges with a G25 and had a ball. Just remember, slow in, fast out (and keep the powerslides to a minimum :) )
 
Resident Troll
I think you are stretching a bit. No one is talking about swapping out brakes, swapping wooden tires for rubber or anything else and no one is talking about racing. The simple discussion is if I fit a tire on a car, one designed to fit the stock wheel, it should have a certain level of safety performance. Doing highway speeds should be required. As for the CSL, that was a purpose built street car for the track and if I put on standard tires would still be able to drive on the highway rain or shine. May not race well but that is not what is being discussed. The stock tires on a Z06 are quite wide and I would venture to guess any tire that would fit that wheel would provide good performance. Now if I swap out the stock wheels with 15" steel wheels and 15" tires that may be a different story but that is not what is being discussed.
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The tyres are a component of the car, they are a consumable just like the brakes. If when you change them you don't fit replacements within the manufacturers specification it's exactly the same as fitting any other component not within their specification in that it isn't their liability when it alters performance (along with it being a legally required obligation to inform your insurer in the UK).

If you're car comes specified with W rated tyres from the factory/dealer and you change them to cheap R rated rubber then it isn't a fault of the car or manufacturer when handling is compromised any more than if you were to put down rated brakes or suspension on it.

The Elise is a light, short wheel base MR car which gives it an agile, twitchy behaviour. You mix that with sub standard rubber like in the challenge and it's going to swap ends if you aren't completely on the ball with it.
 
BigYoSpeck
The tyres are a component of the car, they are a consumable just like the brakes. If when you change them you don't fit replacements within the manufacturers specification it's exactly the same as fitting any other component not within their specification in that it isn't their liability when it alters performance (along with it being a legally required obligation to inform your insurer in the UK).

If you're car comes specified with W rated tyres from the factory/dealer and you change them to cheap R rated rubber then it isn't a fault of the car or manufacturer when handling is compromised any more than if you were to put down rated brakes or suspension on it.

The Elise is a light, short wheel base MR car which gives it an agile, twitchy behaviour. You mix that with sub standard rubber like in the challenge and it's going to swap ends if you aren't completely on the ball with it.
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I guess we can agree to disagree. I still feel a tire that fits a stock wheel will provide a reasonable amount of safe performance. Won't be near peak but enough to be safe. Shouldn't have to be to exact manufacture specs to be safe. Which leads back to my argument that in certain situations, the game is unrealistically difficult.
 
Uncle Harry
Rain driving screwed in GT5. Yes

Explain how a full racing slick can be faster than the full wet in the FGT races in the rain ??
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Because unless you set track settings to real, rain tyres make no difference so in all a-spec races the rain tyres are completely useless, don't believe me? make an online room and test it,racing softs will get you nowhere when the the track setting is on real
 
Resident Troll
But without one the other is irrelevant. They are tied together significantly.
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In as much as when one runs out, the other becomes more important - I agree. My comment though was to the "Lotus Elise handles crap" brigade...
 
I have to agree that some areas of the game are difficult, but there are more areas where I wish it was more challenging.
brambos
Same thing with the Top Gear Lotus Challenge.

There is NO WAY that a real car would start sliding and breaking out if you carefully touch the brakes, going 50km/h in a straight line. Yet that POS Lotus does exactly that.

Either that Lotus is a ridiculously bad car, or it's got wooden wheels, or GT5 is just being unrealistically hard.
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Absolutely hated that challenge a lot. After getting gold on that, I am never touching again. This can be explained since the tire is comfort hard, the worst kind of tires possible.
 
Soullessvessel
I'd love to know how many people in this argument actually have any significant experience with cars. (Significant being track days not driving daily to work.) Compared to how many frankly have 0 place to be discussing anything related to REAL car physics.
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Not that I think you directed this towards me, but I do track my car (S2000) a few times a year so I'm aware of how a car should feel at the limit. In the past I spent 4 years autoxing full seasons (15 events or so a year with an Integra GS-R) so I'm familiar with that as well.

A lot of people in these forums have no track and/or performance driving experience, which is fine b/c it's not something that most people can easily do or afford. The only problem is when they act like they know what they're talking about when they don't:sly:
 
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WolfpackS2k
Not that I think you directed this towards me, but I do track my car (S2000) a few times a year so I'm aware of how a car should feel at the limit. In the past I spent 4 years autoxing full seasons (15 events or so a year with an Integra GS-R) so I'm familiar with that as well.

A lot of people in these forums have no track and/or performance driving experience, which is fine b/c it's not something that most people can easily do or afford. The only problem is when they act like they know what they're talking about when they don't:sly:
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You need 0 experience with racing to know that a car's back does not break out on dry tarmac when braking carefully in a straight line at 40km/h. Having a driver's license is enough.

No matter what sort of rubber is used, that only happens when someone messes with the laws of physics.

So let's not talk about racing a car at the limit, because that's not what we were discussing.
 
I did the AMG races once and passed. I got gold on some and all silvers, but I didn`t like the way it drove at all, it didn`t seem realistic. I have a 350Z and when it rains I do some doughnuts in the rain at my warehouse sometimes (dry days too) and I've set up cones and did some autocross, and it just seems too magnified on what happens when tires slip. It just doesn`t feel right?
 
brambos
You need 0 experience with racing to know that a car's back does not break out on dry tarmac when braking carefully in a straight line at 40km/h. Having a driver's license is enough.

No matter what sort of rubber is used, that only happens when someone messes with the laws of physics.

So let's not talk about racing a car at the limit, because that's not what we were discussing.
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But do you brake really hard, and suddenly in a light weight twitchy MR car with retread tyres, with engine braking in?

Even braking really hard and suddenly in my work van feels pretty unstable at street speeds.


 
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