Update 1.09 & it's new G27/Fanatec clipping issue.

[332i]

I would put this in one of the stickied thread in this subforum, but it really deserves it's own thread to be seen in greater light.

I'm sure PD is already aware of this, but I just did a couple hours of testing. It was comprised of driving over rumble strips, kerbs, and terrain. I would progressively pick up speed while driving on the above. I turned my FFB down from 10 to 5 when I learned of clipping. I decided to test further today as I've heard 3 or 4 are now the best to feel as much as possible and still allow the wheel to fight back decently. Well, not the case, unfortunately.

I have a G27. I know fanatec users have this issue, but not sure to what extent. My friend is running strength number 4 in gt6. I don't think he realizes it is clipping at that. He pointed me to an article on clipping not long ago, so I got around to thoroughly testing it today. All wheels clip at a point, but is particularly a serious problem with these specific wheels and GT6.

If you have a G27, your wheel is clipping force feedback, even when FFB strength is set to number 1 of 10. Yep. I have read articles that said to turn it down to 3 or 4. Ten feels nice and strong, but the motors are always maxed out. I would put this in the sim hardware section, but this is specific feedback and review pertaining directly to GT6 and how it drives the G27/emulates the G27 FFB on the Fanatecs.

When we are getting FFB clipped, the motors can't produce anymore output. They are at their max. This means our wheels are getting maxed out at 1. I don't get bent out of shape over gt6 quirks, but this is just stupid. It is a joke and bad for the wheels.

Just thought anyone with these wheels should know that clipping occurs much lower than we thought, apparently, and it is a shame.

I didn't take much speed for all feeling of the bumper strips and track edges to disappear, when it should become increasingly violent. Below 70mph on sports mediums with an Evo IV. Probably less, I don't use the lower section of the HUD. But, 70 is generous.

 

[liv4hardstyle]

......what?

 

[OdeFinn]

@332i So what are you saying? Have you encounter this clipping on your G27? Only wheel what I have seen that is Fanatec CSW, but that doesn't need a lot, it will burn engines anyway, wheel of year - some times less than that

 

[332i]

I'm not sure how bad it is for the motors. Obviously, it is not great for them, though.

I said I tested it for quite a while today. I made the thread because I encountered it, yes.

 

[turdhat]

How can you tell the difference between clipping and the info just not being there in the Force Feedback in the 1st place ? It's like audio being too loud and distorting for the layman. You can't make out certain things in music if it is so loud the speakers are distorting. In this case the wheel can't make out all of the signals because the info that is being sent from the game is "too loud" or too hot and the wheel makes the best of it but like sound when there is distortion or clipping you loose info.

That might explain why the wheel doesn't go light on understeer with some Fanatec wheels. The Force Feed back is too hot and even in understeer it stays above the threshold where the wheel would lighten.

I am running 1 on in game settings and that is plenty. Still, if you choose a dirt track the force feedback on 1 will rip the wheel from your hands. It's double on dirt courses for some reason. I avoid playing them due to this issue.

 

[Johnnypenso]

How can you tell the difference between clipping and the info just not being there in the Force Feedback in the 1st place ? It's like audio being too loud and distorting for the layman. You can't make out certain things in music if it is so loud the speakers are distorting. In this case the wheel can't make out all of the signals because the info that is being sent from the game is "too loud" or too hot and the wheel makes the best of it but like sound when there is distortion or clipping you loose info. That would explain why the wheel doesn't go light on understeer with Fanatec wheels. The Force Feed back is too hot and even in understeer it stays about the threshold where the wheel would lighten.

I too would like to know how to discern when my G27 is clipping. I've never noticed anything like that in GT. If anything, the FFB is way too muted and dull. Even the new Grid Autosport has better, stronger curb feedback than GT has ever had.

 

[turdhat]

I too would like to know how to discern when my G27 is clipping. I've never noticed anything like that in GT. If anything, the FFB is way too muted and dull. Even the new Grid Autosport has better, stronger curb feedback than GT has ever had.

Muted and dull Force feed back is a result of clipping. Finer details get lost because clipping causes loss of information.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Muted and dull Force feed back is a result of clipping. Finer details get lost because clipping causes loss of information.

How do you separate clipping then, from feedback that is muted and dull by design? Feedback in the GT series has always been dull to me but I think it's by design and has nothing to do with clipping. Driving over 6 inch curbs and not the hint of a shimmy in the wheel isn't clipping, it's programming. If some curbs/tracks/cars can produce decent feedback and others don't again, that not clipping, it's by design.

 

[turdhat]

How do you separate clipping then, from feedback that is muted and dull by design? Feedback in the GT series has always been dull to me but I think it's by design and has nothing to do with clipping. Driving over 6 inch curbs and not the hint of a shimmy in the wheel isn't clipping, it's programming. If some curbs/tracks/cars can produce decent feedback and others don't again, that not clipping, it's by design.

Drive over some of those same curbs really slow and you feel them because there are not other effects being sent to the wheel at 10 mph. When you are going fast over those same curbs there are also other forces being sent and it gets lost in the mix because the other signals overpower it. This is a theory of course but from what I know of force feedback it seems at least plausible.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Drive over some of those same curbs really slow and you feel them because there are not other effects being sent to the wheel at 10 mph. When you are going fast over those same curbs there are also other forces being sent and it gets lost in the mix because the other signals overpower it. This is a theory of course but from what I know of force feedback it seems at least plausible.

I'll try this and see what happens.👍

 

[turdhat]

I'll try this and see what happens.👍

Please report back about that. I am curious if it is that way for others.

Keep in mind that some tracks have low or no curb feel while others are plentiful. At least it was that way. I have not tested that in a while. Nurb 24h would be my suggestion. I have a gt2 which emulates the g25 and it's really alive on Nurb after 1.09. I now feel most curbs and run over them on purpose now to celebrate ! hah !

 

[Johnnypenso]

Please report back about that. I am curious if it is that way for others.

Keep in mind that some tracks have low or no curb feel while others are plentiful. At least it was that way. I have not tested that in a while. Nurb 24h would be my suggestion. I have a gt2 which emulates the g25 and it's really alive on Nurb after 1.09. I now feel most curbs and run over them on purpose now to celebrate ! hah !

Could be a while, I'm pretty enamoured with Grid Autosport at the moment Any suggestions on cars and particular curbs?

 

[turdhat]

Just try to find a place where you feel nothing when going fast and try it again slow. Nurb 24h track with the senna 97t.

 

[OdeFinn]

Drive over some of those same curbs really slow and you feel them because there are not other effects being sent to the wheel at 10 mph. When you are going fast over those same curbs there are also other forces being sent and it gets lost in the mix because the other signals overpower it. This is a theory of course but from what I know of force feedback it seems at least plausible.

And all this started after PD implements some softness on tire rubber and fixes suspension physics..

 

[332i]

I too would like to know how to discern when my G27 is clipping. I've never noticed anything like that in GT. If anything, the FFB is way too muted and dull. Even the new Grid Autosport has better, stronger curb feedback than GT has ever had.

It is dull, because it is clipping out feedback. Start from FFB strength 1 and progress. You'll feel less detail, but more fight, because the motors are maxing out and can't deliver all of the feedback and strength at the same time. Like a speaker clipping.

I found a happy medium at 5, now. But, I have the older g27.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My FFB has never been above 5, usually on 3. So you're saying I'm experiencing the best FFB the game has to offer right now without clipping?

 

[turdhat]

Could someone please test curbs. If you can not feel them try driving over them slow. I am noticing a trend with the curb feel. If you are in the process of high speed turning you may not feel a curb when in a turn and the wheel is pushing however you may feel them fine when in a straight line. When going very slow over them they are very strong however that is pointless.

If seems as if the clipping is in the turning force being sent to the wheel. It is so strong the weaker curb effects are covered up. That is why in a straight line you can at least feel them some and in some cases a lot since no other forces are there to get in the way when you are not turning.

 

[332i]

^^^Clipping isn't something that is sent. Clipping is when you're not feeling all that is being sent to the wheel, because the strength is up to high.

My FFB has never been above 5, usually on 3. So you're saying I'm experiencing the best FFB the game has to offer right now without clipping?

Well...that depends on your wheel model and it's condition...

 

[Johnnypenso]

^^^Clipping isn't something that is sent. Clipping is when you're not feeling all that is being sent to the wheel, because the strength is up to high.

Well...that depends on your wheel model and it's condition...

G27, almost new.

EDIT: Did a bit of experimenting last night. S2000 and Senna F3 on stock tires/tune at the Red Bull Ring. FFB at 1, 4, 7, 10. At slow speeds as in idling or just a bit faster, you can feel everything. Every curb, every bump, even the patterned concrete outside the curbs on several corners. You roll over the small sausage curbs at some corners and the wheel really moves. The strength of it didn't seem to change much at any setting, but the weight of the wheel while turning did change substantially. This was true for both cars.

However at speed and when cornering, the feel of the curbs almost disappears at every setting from 1-10 in the S2000. You can roll right over the last sausage curb at racing speed and feel virtually nothing. The only real feedback you'd get is driving in a straight line and then it was muted.

The F3 was better. You could feel the sausage curbs slightly at racing speed, and they would affect the car if you hit them wrong, spinning you if you weren't careful. I still think they should have a stronger affect on the wheel but it was ok.

I can't draw any conclusions from such limited data, but my feeling is that it isn't clipping at all, it's just the way they programmed the game. If it was clipping, the feeling wouldn't be better on the F3 in fact it should be worse, because you are cornering faster and therefore putting more load on the physics engine and the FFB to the wheel. To some degree it would make sense to limit FFB and the effects of curbing and road imperfections to make the game easier for casual players.

 

[332i]

I am finding the same, that it depends on the car. Some cars I feel far more. I think it has to do with weight, tires and downforce.

 

[Robbks]

I can't draw any conclusions from such limited data, but my feeling is that it isn't clipping at all, it's just the way they programmed the game. If it was clipping, the feeling wouldn't be better on the F3 in fact it should be worse, because you are cornering faster and therefore putting more load on the physics engine and the FFB to the wheel. To some degree it would make sense to limit FFB and the effects of curbing and road imperfections to make the game easier for casual players.

I'm also thinking along the lines of how fast the suspension can actually react when going so fast.
The tyre will probably only be skipping the tops of the ripple-strip

 

[Azure Flare]

To some degree it would make sense to limit FFB and the effects of curbing and road imperfections to make the game easier for casual players.

How do you explain the FFB effects on a T500RS, where you feel every bump on any part of the track, in any car?

My guess is that PD didn't do much work on the FFB for the older Logitech wheels (where Fanatec piggybacks off of) and optimized it for the T500RS because it's the "official" wheel.

 

[Johnnypenso]

How do you explain the FFB effects on a T500RS, where you feel every bump on any part of the track, in any car?

My guess is that PD didn't do much work on the FFB for the older Logitech wheels (where Fanatec piggybacks off of) and optimized it for the T500RS because it's the "official" wheel.

I would explain it by referring to the what I said right above the quote you used.

I can't draw any conclusions from such limited data, but my feeling is that it isn't clipping at all, it's just the way they programmed the game. If it was clipping, the feeling wouldn't be better on the F3 in fact it should be worse, because you are cornering faster and therefore putting more load on the physics engine and the FFB to the wheel.

In this case, it looks like the FFB is there to be had, just not programmed into the G27, which would make sense since it's in one wheel and not the other and more pronounced in one car vs. the other.

 

[332i]

I'm going to test a few things tonight. I think penso may have hit on something. I don't feel any loss from 1-5. I thought at 6+ I got less FFB, but tonight I am going to see if he is right in g27 and fanatec simply getting less FFB. I'm going to test from 6-10 tonight to see if it was all in my head; that it wasn't really fading at six. We'll see. The motors are definitely maxing out at low FFB, but as I've said, if they're going to max out anyways...may as well run it at 5. The problem with lower resistance is I feel like I'm hanging on for dear life around turns. I know the car isn't going to give, but I perceive it as such for some reason. I also have a hard time feeling when the front is about to wash out on me. We'll see. I'm going back to sensitivity 7 as well. Feels inaccurate below that. Just a tip, on 450 lock with G27s, there is no dead zone. Something to do with the centering spring and another signal or component.

 

[Blkout]

I would put this in one of the stickied thread in this subforum, but it really deserves it's own thread to be seen in greater light.

I'm sure PD is already aware of this, but I just did a couple hours of testing. It was comprised of driving over rumble strips, kerbs, and terrain. I would progressively pick up speed while driving on the above. I turned my FFB down from 10 to 5 when I learned of clipping. I decided to test further today as I've heard 3 or 4 are now the best to feel as much as possible and still allow the wheel to fight back decently. Well, not the case, unfortunately.

I have a G27. I know fanatec users have this issue, but not sure to what extent. My friend is running strength number 4 in gt6. I don't think he realizes it is clipping at that. He pointed me to an article on clipping not long ago, so I got around to thoroughly testing it today. All wheels clip at a point, but is particularly a serious problem with these specific wheels and GT6.

If you have a G27, your wheel is clipping force feedback, even when FFB strength is set to number 1 of 10. Yep. I have read articles that said to turn it down to 3 or 4. Ten feels nice and strong, but the motors are always maxed out. I would put this in the sim hardware section, but this is specific feedback and review pertaining directly to GT6 and how it drives the G27/emulates the G27 FFB on the Fanatecs.

When we are getting FFB clipped, the motors can't produce anymore output. They are at their max. This means our wheels are getting maxed out at 1. I don't get bent out of shape over gt6 quirks, but this is just stupid. It is a joke and bad for the wheels.

Just thought anyone with these wheels should know that clipping occurs much lower than we thought, apparently, and it is a shame.

I didn't take much speed for all feeling of the bumper strips and track edges to disappear, when it should become increasingly violent. Below 70mph on sports mediums with an Evo IV. Probably less, I don't use the lower section of the HUD. But, 70 is generous.

While I do agree with you that the latest patch has made the FFB absolutely ridiculous going over kerbs, there's no way for you to accurately know that your wheel is clipping without a software tool. In many PC sims, there are software overlays that will let you know when your wheel is clipping, iRacing, Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2 all have them, but GT6 does not. That being said, clipping isn't terrible if its only happening when you're going over kerbs or off-road because it makes no difference that you're not feeling FFB detail on those areas. My gripe however with the new FFB, is that the kerbs are just not realistic at all, the kerbs are just painful to go over. If they can fix that, I'll be happy with the new FFB changes or for those people that like that ridiculous kerb feel, give us a slider to adjust it.

 

[luchvk]

I didn't read through this thread yet so I don't know if someone has already said something similar. After some testing, I think I've found the highest setting possible while avoiding clipping. The pertains to the new settings, now that we have two. The best setting that I've found is 1:3 (Torque:Sensitivity). After tweaking the settings many times I've found that this feels the most detailed. This applies to the Logitech G27, as I don't have any other wheels to test this setting.

 

[Atomsforpeace]

Glad this thread has been resurrected as doesn't seem to be anybody talking about the best settings anywhere since we got torque and sensitivity options.
I personally go for 5 for torque, any less and i feel its not powerfull enough and anymore and i lose feel.
For sensitivity i use 10, i find the sensation under ten strange and remote(although not tried in a while), 10 seems to be a direct communication of my inputs into the wheel which feels more natural to me.
Will be trying the 1;3 mentioned by luchvk above when i get home as im always open to options.
Would like to add for reference i am using g27 and always manual trans, power steering off. No driver aids, no abs either. Full 920* lock. I also dont use anything over ss tyres and mainly prefer normal cars on stock comfort medium tyres mostly, not sure if this makes a difference to the feel in wheel?

 

[luchvk]

Glad this thread has been resurrected as doesn't seem to be anybody talking about the best settings anywhere since we got torque and sensitivity options.
I personally go for 5 for torque, any less and i feel its not powerfull enough and anymore and i lose feel.
For sensitivity i use 10, i find the sensation under ten strange and remote(although not tried in a while), 10 seems to be a direct communication of my inputs into the wheel which feels more natural to me.
Will be trying the 1;3 mentioned by luchvk above when i get home as im always open to options.
Would like to add for reference i am using g27 and always manual trans, power steering off. No driver aids, no abs either. Full 920* lock. I also dont use anything over ss tyres and mainly prefer normal cars on stock comfort medium tyres mostly, not sure if this makes a difference to the feel in wheel?

That's actually changed for me since I posted this. For some high downforce cars I have to go as low as 1:1 to get more feeling from the car. Other cars I can go higher. With 1:3 on racecars I can't feel most cars start to lose/regain grip. So it's harder to prevent and catch spins/slides on higher settings for me.

It would be nice to be able to edit some specific values because I'm sure something is set too high and causes clipping easily. The wheel feels really light at 1:1 until I get up to speed; even at this setting I, believe (still need further testing), I can still get clipping with some cars. One setting I would like to try changing is the aero-weight gain value(s).

Aside from all of that, I personally think the settings for FFB are too high in general and cause clipping too easily. If I wanted to I could't set a higher wheel weight, and lower effects, without getting clipping.

 

[Atomsforpeace]

The strange thing seems to he that different ffb setting seem to work better with different cars. I mostly drive slower cars with non grippy tyre and they seem to work nicely with my setting but they fall apart when i get in more powerfull cars, wheel cant keep up? Or simply to much information at that speed so clipping gets worse? Unfortunately i have no experience with other wheels on gt6 or indeed my wheel on another sim to see how it compares to using it on gt6.

 

[luchvk]

The strange thing seems to he that different ffb setting seem to work better with different cars. I mostly drive slower cars with non grippy tyre and they seem to work nicely with my setting but they fall apart when i get in more powerfull cars, wheel cant keep up? Or simply to much information at that speed so clipping gets worse? Unfortunately i have no experience with other wheels on gt6 or indeed my wheel on another sim to see how it compares to using it on gt6.

Well, cars that have more grip, not necessarily more power, deliver stronger forces to the wheel. I'm pretty sure it's something like that with real-world cars as well, unless powersteering is present. I can also say it like this, in most sims the wheel delivers less strength or torque when the car's tires lose grip. If the tires don't lose grip at a certain point the torque builds until they do at another point, if they do at all.

A wheel can only provide a set amount of torque; it can't infinitely build. So if it hits it's max before the sim stops increasing the forces all that will be felt is resistance, AKA clipping. Optimal force feedback generally isn't a one-size-fits-all type of thing, it changes per car, and even pertrack sometimes.

You can run higher settings in cars with less grip and not get clipping compared to cars with more grip. In cars with more grip you have to reduce the settings unless you have a wheel strong enough to deliver the forces without clipping.