::UPDATE Car got! :: What car should I get?

[robulus]

I'm looking at getting a second car, and to get something with a little performance. I'm interested in peoples opinions on what's available second hand in Australia for around $12000. I'm Looking at cars around 12 - 15 years old, 120000 kms. I used to have a twin spark alfa Romeo gtv, I'm interested in the 6cyl, but wondering how it compares with a BMW or an Audi in the same vintage. Any thoughts? Any other cars I should be looking at?

 

[freedomweasel]

The answer is miata.

 

[Crumpet]

The answer is miata.

This.

 

[homeforsummer]

I used to have a twin spark alfa Romeo gtv, I'm interested in the 6cyl, but wondering how it compares with a BMW or an Audi in the same vintage. Any thoughts?

Roughly a hundred thousand times more interesting, a million times better looking and marginally less reliable than its Audi or BMW equivalents.

Actually, that's unfair on the Audi as I presume a TT is now available for that kind of price at that age, and they're good looking cars. You'll struggle to find something that sounds better than the V6 Alfa though and if it's been looked after it should be reasonably reliable too. I seem to remember from when I was looking at GTVs you need to make sure the rear suspension is in good nick as the wishbones fail, and other than that just make sure the V6 has had a recent cambelt change.

Other than that, they seem fairly reliable. And they really are ludicrously good looking.

 

[CarreraGT]

Whatever you do, do not get a BMW or Audi of that age. One of my friends had an Audi and another had an old 5 series, both around the age/price you're looking at, and they spent so much on repairs it wasn't funny. Especially here in Australia, old European cars are an absolute nightmare to service and repair.

For the money you're talking, I would make 2 suggestions and of course it depends what sort of cars you're into:

1) Local: Commodore SS. If you like Australian cars, it's pretty hard to go past the SS. 5.7L LS1, 6 speed manual, and you should be able to pick up a VX for under 12 grand.

2) Japanese: Nissan Skyline GTS-25t. In my opinion this can't be beaten for the price. I have never been a Skyline person, but my brother owned one which put out around 400hp and driving it totally changed my opinion. 2.5L inline turbo 6, rear wheel drive and usually with less than 100,ooo kays on the clock. Get a nice clean one with not too much work, then spend money on it as you get it. Definitiely one of the best sounding and performing cars I have driven.

But yeah like I said, it depends what sort of cars you're into, and avoid old Europeans if you can

 

[Clark]

Any six-cylinder E21/E30.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

What about a Volkswagen Bora V5 or 4-Motion? I was looking at those for an increasingly long amount of time until I realised that I can't actually afford it and set my sights lower. Well equipped, if you get a good exhaust system the sound is just and they actually look pretty classy as well. And in the V5's case, they're pretty robust and reliable as well, haven't heard any real problems apart from the window regulators which is a common Bora problem.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's sold, but it's a V5 for 9 grand with a 5-cog manual and 118,000kms. Full leather, dual-zone climate control, and all the other luxury bits and pieces.

As CarreraGT said it all really depends on what takes your fancy with your cars. Alfa Romeos don't seem to be very popular where I'm at and I can't really speak for their reliability from experience but from what I've heard they're all about passion, flair, character...and the electrics ceasing to work along with them being regularly on the side of the road in a cloud of steam. It's not in a cloud of steam but there's a 75 a couple-hundred metres away from where I work where it has been sitting for the past 5 months without moving an inch. That said though if your Twin Spark didn't give you any hassles then there's hope for Alfa yet. The GTV is a fabulous looking thing.

From what I've heard while being in the same sort of predicament I found that one of the best value-for-money cars to go for if you want a reliable luxury car is a first-generation Honda Accord Euro. It's not the most fun car to drive out there but the K24 is a pretty good engine with VTEC and 200hp and the 6-speed manual is a very good transmission. There is of course also the Mazda 6 Luxury Sports *waits for Rotary Junkie*. Test drove one myself and it's got a very good chassis. The 2.3L isn't as powerful as the Accord's K24 but it's still good for 170hp standard.

If you want no-holds-barred performance though then there's even more choice than that, although it may be hard to get a few of these that haven't been thrashed or done a million kays on them. I personally stand by the Subaru Impreza WRX whole-heartedly, and the Nissan Skyline but for your price you would have a much easier time finding a non-thrashed R34 than an R33 as CarreraGT suggested. They have the same RB25DE(T) but the R34's NEO RB25 is a little bit more powerful than the R33's. As far as weapons-grade performance cars go your best bet here is going to be a Toyota Supra, but like the Skyline many of them are likely to be thrashed.

It all depends how much performance you want.

 

[robulus]

Thanks for the replies, keep em coming!

The answer is miata.

The Miata looks like great bang for buck, but I'll need a four seater. It will occasionally get pressed into family duty.

Roughly a hundred thousand times more interesting, a million times better looking

Aren't they. The GTV is still sitting at the top of my list, but I sort of feel like I've got an opportunity to stretch my experience. In particular, I wouldn't mind a rear wheel drive.

Actually, that's unfair on the Audi as I presume a TT is now available for that kind of price at that age, and they're good looking cars.

TT is still going for a little more. I'd be looking at an A4 or something, which is pretty bland. The GTV seems to be very well priced in the second hand market considering its quality.

1) Local: Commodore SS. If you like Australian cars, it's pretty hard to go past the SS. 5.7L LS1, 6 speed manual, and you should be able to pick up a VX for under 12 grand.

Nice, but I'm after something more nimble. I'm in the country and I'll be doing a lot of windy roads.

2) Japanese: Nissan Skyline GTS-25t. In my opinion this can't be beaten for the price. I have never been a Skyline person, but my brother owned one which put out around 400hp and driving it totally changed my opinion. 2.5L inline turbo 6, rear wheel drive and usually with less than 100,ooo kays on the clock. Get a nice clean one with not too much work, then spend money on it as you get it. Definitiely one of the best sounding and performing cars I have driven.

Skyline is definitely on my list, and I was pretty keen on them to start off with. However they've pretty much all been imported into Australia by enthusiasts, which is nice, except they then go and modify them. I'm not sure I've got the time and patience to get them all checked out (I don't have the skill) and make sure the work on them is up to scratch. Plus you know they've been driven hard. All the cars I'm looking at have probably been worked out a little, but the Skylines you can be sure have seen a lot of testosterone...

Any six-cylinder E21/E30.

What about this, I thought this looked like a real contender:
http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars...ing|0||pCar_Model_String|0&keywords=&__N=1216 1246 1247 1252 1282 4294967079 4294729572 4294967061 410 898&silo=1011&PriceTo=410&seot=1&tsrc=allcarhome&__Nne=15&trecs=33&__sid=12EF79C3F7D0

What about a Volkswagen Bora V5 or 4-Motion? I was looking at those for an increasingly long amount of time until I realised that I can't actually afford it and set my sights lower. Well equipped, if you get a good exhaust system the sound is just and they actually look pretty classy as well. And in the V5's case, they're pretty robust and reliable as well, haven't heard any real problems apart from the window regulators which is a common Bora problem.

Looks great. Getting shortlisted!

Alfa Romeos don't seem to be very popular where I'm at and I can't really speak for their reliability from experience but from what I've heard they're all about passion, flair, character...and the electrics ceasing to work along with them being regularly on the side of the road in a cloud of steam.

I think the GTV still suffers from the reputation of its 80's introduction to Australia, which had a terrible terrible record. They seem to be underpriced to me. I absolutely loved the twin spark and although it felt a little underpowered I always knew I was driving an Italian sports car. I test drove an R-spec Integra later and while there was no doubt about the power it had, the handling was stiff and souless.

From what I've heard while being in the same sort of predicament I found that one of the best value-for-money cars to go for if you want a reliable luxury car is a first-generation Honda Accord Euro. It's not the most fun car to drive out there but the K24 is a pretty good engine with VTEC and 200hp and the 6-speed manual is a very good transmission. There is of course also the Mazda 6 Luxury Sports *waits for Rotary Junkie*. Test drove one myself and it's got a very good chassis. The 2.3L isn't as powerful as the Accord's K24 but it's still good for 170hp standard.

I definitely want the tilt towards performance more than luxury...

If you want no-holds-barred performance though then there's even more choice than that, although it may be hard to get a few of these that haven't been thrashed or done a million kays on them. I personally stand by the Subaru Impreza WRX whole-heartedly, and the Nissan Skyline but for your price you would have a much easier time finding a non-thrashed R34 than an R33 as CarreraGT suggested. They have the same RB25DE(T) but the R34's NEO RB25 is a little bit more powerful than the R33's. As far as weapons-grade performance cars go your best bet here is going to be a Toyota Supra, but like the Skyline many of them are likely to be thrashed.

It all depends how much performance you want.

...but as you point out the real well known budget performers have usually been ridden hard.

Really appreciate these comments, exactly what I was after. A bit of a sanity check and some new ideas.

 

[CarreraGT]

Have a look around, but there are a couple of places in Sydney that import Japanese cars in stock form. If you decided to go down that route, I would recommend one of these importers over a private seller

 

[Murcie_LP640]

I definitely want the tilt towards performance more than luxury...

Understandable, but even considering that the Euro's got some pretty decent poke as well as the luxury bits. Now that I think about it though it is geared more towards cruising rather than attacking a B-road.

Really though it's actually quite easy to find an unmolested R34 GT-T for under budget and it's not easy to look past it. 206kW, 343Nm and 0-100 in 6.2 seconds is certainly not bad at all. However, if you have a preference towards manual transmissions then it gets a little tricky as they appear to be kind of rare and almost none are within your budget of 12k. Tiptronic's the next best but even then it's only a four-speed and undoubtedly it ain't going to be as fun.

Moving on to my personal preference, an Impreza WRX. I've personally driven three of these, my parents owned one and it's a very good car to drive. The WRX in your price range (99-01 models) produces around 160kW of power and 290Nm of torque, which doesn't like that much compared to the GT-T or an STi but it has loads upon loads of cornering grip, and thanks to AWD it can do 0-100 in about 6 seconds dead which certainly ain't hanging around. A fair few of them have done more than 120,000kms but they'd still be tight as a drum.

Then there's the weapons-grade car, the JZA80 Supra (although you can get any Toyota with a 1JZ or 2JZ and be rest-assured that it'll be a cracker). They're very, very popular ricing cars so if you're looking at one, expect it to have a modification or 10 done to it, but they're also very good performers. Twin-turbo models produce around 225kW and 430Nm whereas naturally-aspirated models have around 165kW and 280Nm. 0-100 for a twin-turbo model was around 4.7 secs. From what I've read they also have pretty good handling; objectively on a 300ft skidpad the Supra pulled 0.98g in 1994.

There's quite a few other Japanese turbo cars that would fit the performer bill nicely apart from those three though. Certainly an honourable mention would be an S14 Nissan 200SX. Blacktop SR20DET with 195kW. Also the 300ZX but they're a little hard to work on because of the lack of space in the engine bay. Still, 225kW and 0-60 in 5 seconds, give-or-take.

 

[robulus]

@murcie thanks mate, really appreciate you taking the time.

When I first started looking I was thinking around $7000, and there are a few skylines in that price range, they struck me as looking a little thrashed. The R34 GT-T looks a lot better, I saw a few manuals with reasonable ks on them asking $15000. In the NSW second hand market this could well see them going in my range.

I might have to revisit the WRX too. The Supra sounds insane. Probably too insane, the wife has to drive it occasionally too.

That is really the sort of list I was after, thanks again.

 

[CarreraGT]

^I should have mentioned the WRX as well, definitely a great car for the moeny. You should be able to get anything as new as an 02-03 model for 12k, but personally I would go a pre-2000 model because they looked a lot better. The older models were also a bit more hard-edged which I like

 

[Murcie_LP640]

^ The late 90s WRXs are generally regarded as the best to drive because they're a lot more raw-edged and harder than the later ones. My mum used to own a 2005 which she affectionately called "SIC EM" and while it was still a very quick car and more practical I drove my auntie's '00 model and it felt like a better driver's car. The "Bug-Eye" was a step backwards.

If you need four seats and something for the missus to drive then the GT-T is probably the better bet. The WRX is a four-door four-seater but space in the back is lacking, and the Supra is pretty much a 2+2 so you'd probably only be able to fit toddlers in the back and it's a coupe-only affair.

 

[robulus]

^ The late 90s WRXs are generally regarded as the best to drive because they're a lot more raw-edged and harder than the later ones. My mum used to own a 2005 which she affectionately called "SIC EM" and while it was still a very quick car and more practical I drove my auntie's '00 model and it felt like a better driver's car. The "Bug-Eye" was a step backwards.

If you need four seats and something for the missus to drive then the GT-T is probably the better bet. The WRX is a four-door four-seater but space in the back is lacking, and the Supra is pretty much a 2+2 so you'd probably only be able to fit toddlers in the back and it's a coupe-only affair.

🤬 brilliant. Looks like I'm going to test drive some Skylines!

 

[Grayfox]

Honda Integra Type R '01
It looks nice, it sounds nice(even more when VTEC kicks in) and it has performance and it has honda reliability.
Finding these can be hard but it is a good feeling when you find one, it will be costly to insure around $2000 a year for under 25's.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

^ Type-Rs are great in general but from what I've seen it's a struggle getting one for under 15k, let alone 12k. Damn Hondas and their insanely good resale values.

 

[robulus]

Honda Integra Type R '01
It looks nice, it sounds nice(even more when VTEC kicks in) and it has performance and it has honda reliability.
Finding these can be hard but it is a good feeling when you find one, it will be costly to insure around $2000 a year for under 25's.

I test drove one of them, it was a candidate for a trade up from the GTV. there is no denying the power coming out of that engine is amazing, but I didn't enjoy the handling to be honest. I definitely want a car for going around corners! Mind you, driving twice around the block with a dealer in the passenger seat is probably not the best way to form a life long opinion about a car...

 

[Bones Brigade]

I am surprised to hear you didnt like the handling. Granted, I have never driven one, but they are generally regarded as being really well sorted through corners.

 

[homeforsummer]

I am surprised to hear you didnt like the handling. Granted, I have never driven one, but they are generally regarded as being really well sorted through corners.

Handling is one of those things that's very subjective for a lot of cars. Especially on a brief test drive. I suspect (like you I've only heard reports, never driven myself) that at 8/10ths plus an Integra is brilliant, but at lower speeds it probably just feels like a bog-basic Civic or something, i.e. not at all special. Some cars you can appreciate a greater proportion of the time even if ultimately they aren't as well sorted.

 

[bradford]

Maybe RX7?

 

[CarreraGT]

🤬 brilliant. Looks like I'm going to test drive some Skylines!

I just did a quick search (whilst looking for my own car) and there are plenty of R34 GT-T's around between 12-15K. Not sure if you're after a 2 door or a 4 door, but the 2 door is quite a good looking car.

Then all you have to do is add a GT-R front bar and side skirts (minus the black hood) and you end up with this 👍

I have to say the Nissan RB engine is a tuner's dream. It sounds amazing, and you don't need to spend much to achieve some descent power figures. The magic of turbos...

 

[robulus]

I am surprised to hear you didnt like the handling. Granted, I have never driven one, but they are generally regarded as being really well sorted through corners.

Handling is one of those things that's very subjective for a lot of cars. Especially on a brief test drive. I suspect (like you I've only heard reports, never driven myself) that at 8/10ths plus an Integra is brilliant, but at lower speeds it probably just feels like a bog-basic Civic or something, i.e. not at all special. Some cars you can appreciate a greater proportion of the time even if ultimately they aren't as well sorted.

In all honesty that is probably a BS opinion of mine, I didn't really have a good enough test drive to make that call. Basically it didn't handle like the GTV, which really glides. At higher speeds there is every chance the Integra's stiffness translates to solid road holding.

 

[robulus]

I just did a quick search (whilst looking for my own car) and there are plenty of R34 GT-T's around between 12-15K. Not sure if you're after a 2 door or a 4 door, but the 2 door is quite a good looking car.

Then all you have to do is add a GT-R front bar and side skirts (minus the black hood) and you end up with this 👍

I have to say the Nissan RB engine is a tuner's dream. It sounds amazing, and you don't need to spend much to achieve some descent power figures. The magic of turbos...

I am definitely going to drive one of these, and maybe a pre-2000 WRX too. I don't need much space in the rear seats, just enough to use them when pressed. Remember the other car in the mix is an Alfa GTV, which isn't exactly a luxury ride in the rear back seats either.

The thing about body kits and side skirts is I don't know if I'll be able to get it over the curb and onto my driveway, its a bit of a dip! I'll be looking for something pretty factory standard at first, and then see how I go.

I tried one of these in GT5 last night (Nissan SKYLINE GT-R Special Color Midnight Purple III (R34) ), and while it would obviously be madness to base any major decisions on a game, I have to say that the car as playable in the game is amazing, and considerably outperforms the Alfa GT 3.2L that I've also been playing with. And I was faster in that than an Audi TT. I do think trying cars in GT5 gives you some sort of context for them, even though I wish it was easier to get hold of the exact model you want, rather than a close cousin.

 

[CarreraGT]

Fair call on the bodykit, the standard GT-T is still a good looking car. Also if you think the GT-R is fun to drive in GT5, remember the GT-T is RWD and over 100kg lighter! It's obviously nothing compared to the GT-R in stock form but turn up the wick a bit and then things start getting serious

 

[robulus]

Maybe RX7?

Had a quick look, the ones in my price range seem to be over 20 years old and well over 150000 clicks, so it looks like its out of my league. Plus there's that rotary engine thing, you'd need a Mazda dealer to service that, wouldn't you?

 

[Murcie_LP640]

In all honesty that is probably a BS opinion of mine, I didn't really have a good enough test drive to make that call. Basically it didn't handle like the GTV, which really glides. At higher speeds there is every chance the Integra's stiffness translates to solid road holding.

Basically a DC2 Integ Type-R has been renowned as one of the best handling FWD cars of all time, but to appreciate it you gotta be going a hell of a lot harder than the nationwide town/city speed limit of 50kph.

Also about the GT-T versus GT-R, it wouldn't take very much at all for that 206kW to be turned up to the 246kW that a GT-R produces, but remember that since it is rear-wheel-drive it's going to be a fair bit more lively than the ATTESA E-TS AWD GT-R. That being said they did do standard trim levels with a less sophisticated AWD system but I'm pretty sure they're the more lethargic naturally aspirated RB25.

It's the same sort of story with the WRX. The engine modifications that we got on SIC EM were a bit costly (I believe it was an ECUTek XB Tune for a cool $3500) but it was producing around 190kW at the wheels I believe, about 5kW less than what a new WRX produces at the flywheel.

 

[oopssorryy]

For 12000 you could get a nice 90's MK3 Supra Turbo or R32, they tend to hold up pretty well. Or you could go for a RX-7 but I have no idea what their maintenance is like.

 

[robulus]

Basically a DC2 Integ Type-R has been renowned as one of the best handling FWD cars of all time.

Lucky I called myself out on it then. I'd hate to look like an idiot...

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

How about some of these..?

*click*

*click2*

There were some E46's too, few 323 and 325's but they either had high miles or they were automatic.

 

[robulus]

How about some of these..?

*click*

*click2*

There were some E46's too, few 323 and 325's but they either had high miles or they were automatic.

Nice. Particularly the first one in Silver. The interior of the BMW's is definitely a cut above. Whats the performance like in one of this vintage?