Very interesting article about Dark Matter

[Small_Fryz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4679220.stm

This is very interesting.

btw not sure what section to put this

 

[donbenni]

Ok, interesting indeed. What cool stuff will this lead us too?

 

[ls2_297]

if i had any idea to what that was about im sure it was very interesting

 

[Anderton Prime]

This reminds me of the series of fiction books by Philip Pullman called His Dark Materials. It's about this young girl whose uncle has discovered this magical material that binds together all existence, and has found a way to manipulate it so he can pass through to other worlds and realities. He is amassing an army to confront God. I never finished the series, there are three books, but they were extremely entertaining.

Though I don't want to turn this into a religious thread, wouldn't it be cool if this Dark Matter was the missing link we needed to verify a divine Creator's existence, that our existence has all been a game to find out how long it would take us to discover this stuff?

 

[xcsti]

Though I don't want to turn this into a religious thread, wouldn't it be cool if this Dark Matter was the missing link we needed to verify a divine Creator's existence, that our existence has all been a game to find out how long it would take us to discover this stuff?

But who would there be for him to take bets with?

Good article.

 

[Touring Mars]

Here is another article from today's Guardian...

Interesting point, that you can get small galaxies and big galaxies, you get clustering of galaxies, and clustering of clusters of galaxies (superclusters), but you never get anything smaller than a small galaxy...

 

[niky]

Wow... fast and hot dark matter? That's wild. But then that also points to the probability that physical detection would be nearly impossible. If dark matter were to interact with physical matter at a rate even approaching 1%, we'd probably all be long dead of heat stroke.

This does bring up an interesting question... how hot was dark matter at the beginning of the universe? And will it cool down by the end? And would our ability to detect it lead to an ability to tap it? Think about it... 10,000 degrees... and it's all around us... it's about as fascinating as quantum fluctuation energy... sci-fi buffs, rejoice!

If the Milky Way is the biggest or one of the biggest galaxies in the visible universe, that ought to make a bunch of Creationists very happy. It brings the center of the universe that much closer to the Earth.

This brings to mind understeer and GT4. What if Dark Matter were a last minute physics tweak? Something inserted to ensure that galactic formation in the universe was just right to engender life? Just thinking...

 

[FoolKiller]

Wow... fast and hot dark matter? That's wild. But then that also points to the probability that physical detection would be nearly impossible. If dark matter were to interact with physical matter at a rate even approaching 1%, we'd probably all be long dead of heat stroke.

This does bring up an interesting question... how hot was dark matter at the beginning of the universe? And will it cool down by the end? And would our ability to detect it lead to an ability to tap it? Think about it... 10,000 degrees... and it's all around us... it's about as fascinating as quantum fluctuation energy... sci-fi buffs, rejoice!

Wait, but he said that while it has heat there is no radiation that we would feel. When he tried explaining that was the point I decided it was beyond my understanding of physics. Imagine being able to harness dark energy or matter and using it as an alternative energy source. It would be more powerful than nuclear but have no radiation. How crazy is that?

 

[Danny]

Haven't we devised a hyperdrive system too?

 

[Flame-returns]

Haven't we devised a hyperdrive system too?

Damn right we have!

Just had to do that before somone else did.

 

[niky]

That's why I'm kind of skeptical that they'll get results from the detectors they're building... very very low interaction with real matter.

But it would be interesting if they could actually catch it.

Cool how WIMPs have gone from hypothetical (and very recent, too) to being possibly the most abundant particles in the Universe.

 

[FoolKiller]

That's why I'm kind of skeptical that they'll get results from the detectors they're building... very very low interaction with real matter.

But it would be interesting if they could actually catch it.

They said they were doing research with particle accelerators (Wish I had one). If they can find out what the interaction with "real" matter is then they could know exactly what to look for and calibrate their instruments for that. Then it will show up like an infrared camera.

Thsi is all very cool and exciting, from a science geek standpoint that is.

 

[Touring Mars]

If the Milky Way is the biggest or one of the biggest galaxies in the visible universe, that ought to make a bunch of Creationists very happy. It brings the center of the universe that much closer to the Earth.

he he, heaven forbid...

...the article actually says 'local universe', which doesn't mean 'known' or 'visible' universe at all - the term merely refers to our 'local group' of galaxies, of which the Milky Way and Andromeda are the two most prominent members of... since the known/visible universe contains some 100 billion galaxies, however, it is extremely unlikely that the Milky Way is anything special in terms of size... still, I don't want to belittle the Milky Way - it's still one massive SOB, at 100,000 light years across, that's enough time and space to give any creationist a hard time explaining

 

[FoolKiller]

at 100,000 light years across, that's enough time and space to give any creationist a hard time explaining

How so, when the most popular belief is that it was kind of like *poof* there it is? I'm not arguing for that theory, but I am just saying that someone with that mindset won't be affected by statistics of any magnitude.

 

[Touring Mars]

How so, when the most popular belief is that it was kind of like *poof* there it is? I'm not arguing for that theory, but I am just saying that someone with that mindset won't be affected by statistics of any magnitude.

Maybe so.... but the logic of 'that mindset' is pretty barmy. That figure is not a merely a 'statistic', but a realistic measurement based on the most advanced measuring techniques currently known to Man. To disregard it as all phooey or Neo-Darwinian liberalist claptrap is to disregard the concept of measurability and the rationale of all logical enquiry in the process. The Milky Way is 100,000 light years (approx.) across - just as sure as we know that the Sun is an average of approx 93 million miles from Earth, that London is 3741 miles away from New York, or the distance between that rotating helicopter blade and the top of your head is 2 feet. A creationist might argue, yes, but measurements are all just Man-made concepts - so the 100,000 ly across 'measurement' is meaningless.... well, to them I say, OK, why don't you have the same level of skepticism about other measurements, like between your head and the helicopter blade. If you don't believe that it's only two feet away (when it actually is), then walk towards it if you are so sure.... the point is, if you don't believe the Milky Way is really that big, then you are quite simply wrong. It is really that big. And since it is really that big, and we can observe objects at that distance, it is absolute proof that the Milky Way is atleast 100,000 years old (otherwise the light from the objects at that distance could not have reached us yet)... a creationist may still not believe it, but it doesn't matter, so long as no-one believes the creationist...

 

[FoolKiller]

Maybe so.... but the logic of 'that mindset' is pretty barmy. That figure is not a merely a 'statistic', but a realistic measurement based on the most advanced measuring techniques currently known to Man. To disregard it as all phooey or Neo-Darwinian liberalist claptrap is to disregard the concept of measurability and the rationale of all logical enquiry in the process. The Milky Way is 100,000 light years (approx.) across - just as sure as we know that the Sun is an average of approx 93 million miles from Earth, that London is 3741 miles away from New York, or the distance between that rotating helicopter blade and the top of your head is 2 feet. A creationist might argue, yes, but measurements are all just Man-made concepts - so the 100,000 ly across 'measurement' is meaningless.... well, to them I say, OK, why don't you have the same level of skepticism about other measurements, like between your head and the helicopter blade. If you don't believe that it's only two feet away (when it actually is), then walk towards it if you are so sure.... the point is, if you don't believe the Milky Way is really that big, then you are quite simply wrong. It is really that big. And since it is really that big, and we can observe objects at that distance, it is absolute proof that the Milky Way is atleast 100,000 years old (otherwise the light from the objects at that distance could not have reached us yet)... a creationist may still not believe it, but it doesn't matter, so long as no-one believes the creationist...

Based on the old people at my church that have the belief that the world is only 6,000 years old (I don't even know where they get that number) it doesn't matter if it is 100,000 ly across or 100 million because it was all put in place to test our faith, or something like that.

See for them the bigger a statistic or measurement the greater it proves God to be because they think that for God the distance across the galaxy is inconsequential. The bigger that measurement the bigger it makes God.

As my father-in-law likes to say, they don't let the truth get in the way of their opinion.

I'll leave it all at that, because that is the best I understand them and this is too far off topic as it is.

 

[Anderton Prime]

My nose is bleeding and my head hurts from reading this thread!

 

[Touring Mars]

I'll leave it all at that, because that is the best I understand them and this is too far off topic as it is.

Hmmm, I don't think it is that far off-topic - we're talking about the reality and scale of the known universe, and the subject of dark matter is at the cutting edge of that very debate... you make a good point though, that the mindset of some people won't allow them to contemplate the true nature of the universe, and hence stories about dark matter will probably pass them by to a large extent....

Based on the old people at my church that have the belief that the world is only 6,000 years old (I don't even know where they get that number)

This is a Young Earth Creationist's interpretation of the Bible... it's important to note however that the Bible itself does infact not say how old the Earth really is... the 6000 year figure is merely an addition of all the ages of a lineage of people mentioned in the Bible..., not taking into account any gaps, any inaccuracies, or the credibility of any of it anyway.

In contrast, the observation that the universe is atleast several billion years old is based on the fact that light has a finite speed and can therefore only travel a certain distance given a certain time. Light from an object 1 million light years distance away takes 1 million years to reach Earth. Therefore, if we know how far an object is away, then we can also work out the lower limit for how old that object must be, hence why we can be quite sure that the universe is not merely 6000 years old.

Of course, dark matter poses a slight problem. Since it does not radiate light and is perceptible only by virtue of it's interactions with visible matter, it is going to be very hard to make good measurements of distant dark matter - and from the recent data, it looks very like dark matter can only occupy very large spaces and is very tenous in nature... anyway, it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

it was all put in place to test our faith, or something like that.

And they were put here to test ours....

 

[FoolKiller]

This is a Young Earth Creationist's interpretation of the Bible... it's important to note however that the Bible itself does infact not say how old the Earth really is... the 6000 year figure is merely an addition of all the ages of a lineage of people mentioned in the Bible..., not taking into account any gaps, any inaccuracies, or the credibility of any of it anyway.

Did they use the same calendar we have today when the Old Testament was written? It says so-and-so lived to be 300 years and that could mean 1000 years or 30 years. Ancient scripts that have been translated multiple times should never be used to tell time, end of story.

Of course, dark matter poses a slight problem. Since it does not radiate light and is perceptible only by virtue of it's interactions with visible matter, it is going to be very hard to make good measurements of distant dark matter - and from the recent data, it looks very like dark matter can only occupy very large spaces and is very tenous in nature... anyway, it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

I can tell you already that the fact that we sense energy that we can not see or measure proves God is working in the universe. God help the poor scientist who confronts Pat Robertson with this dark energy information.

 

[Omnis]

If the Milky Way is larger than Andromeda due to dark matter, how are we to know that Andromeda doesn't have the same or more dark matter as well? Did they find the dark matter mass on andromeda as well?

 

[niky]

Mostly from gravitational measurements... or calculations of the approximate mass of the Milky Way from the structure of its arms, the way the stars move, etcetera... a very painstaking and painfully boring job to do... I might add.

That said, it's very hard to grasp how dark matter, something that has very little or no physical interaction with "regular" matter, can have so much mass.

Fie... everyone knows the Universe is only a few hundred thousand years old. Humanity sees it different because we're quarantined in a quantum bubble that limits us to this ridiculously low light speed limit. It's because the aliens have come and seen us, and we scared the **** out of them.

 

[a6m5]

My nose is bleeding and my head hurts from reading this thread!

I know how you feel! Dark Matter is VERY interesting subject, but I don't completely understand it either. If it makes you feel any better, even our top scientists are kind of scratching their heads as well.

Did they use the same calendar we have today when the Old Testament was written? It says so-and-so lived to be 300 years and that could mean 1000 years or 30 years. Ancient scripts that have been translated multiple times should never be used to tell time, end of story.

Interesting. I've always wondered about the crazy claims by the Bible of people living for hundreds of years. I wonder if we are on to something here.....

 

[Omnis]

By Futurama terms, isn't Dark Matter just a bunch of poop?


My theory is that time is digested by the cosmos, and then has to be excreted back into the universe. Therefore, we end up with this intergalactic caca.

Time, being essentially infinite, obviously contributes to the immense mass. It's like constantly having a subway train flowing out of your comparatively wee bumhole.

 

[VIPFREAK]

if i had any idea to what that was about im sure it was very interesting

Me too.

 

[Touring Mars]

I can tell you already that the fact that we sense energy that we can not see or measure proves God is working in the universe. God help the poor scientist who confronts Pat Robertson with this dark energy information.

Well, that is quite untrue - we cannot 'see' dark matter in the conventional way, but we do know it is there. The vast majority of the electromagnetic spectrum is beyond the range of human perception ( radio waves being a simple example ), yet with simple technology we can detect them, generate them and use them. Dark matter is a physical entity that has physical properties that until now have rendered it impervious to detection by mankind. But not any more. By studying it's gravitational effects on other things, such as light emitted from non-dark matter, we know that it is there. Now, after careful scientific observations, more tangible physical properties of dark matter are beginning to reveal themselves to us, such as it's density, speed, and temperature. Still, I wouldn't like to get into a discussion about it (or anything else for that matter with Pat Robertson), he'd probably tell you it was all witchcraft...

 

[FoolKiller]

he'd probably tell you it was all witchcraft...

That is one BIG witch.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

'

This is not an opinion this is a pointer​

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

It's like constantly having a subway train flowing out of your comparatively wee bumhole.

That's an...interesting anology

But that video is cool. I think I finally understand the whole dark-matter thing, or at least as much as one with only a high school level of physics could possible understand...sort of. I think I've got the basic idea though. The whole concept is interesting, but the argument involving both sides just backs up my theory that, no matter how advanced we become or evolved we get, no matter how many breakthroughs and discoverires we make, no matter how long research goes on for, we will never fully understand the universe. Hell, we may never get close. It's just too big, too mysterious, and too complex.