Video evidence of GT5's AI: The good, and the bad.

  • Thread starter Thread starter RedSuinit
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RedSuinit
I don't know if there are any official rulings on overtakes like this in the real world. I have had to abandon my proper racing line multiple times because someone will brake into the inside line, and instead of hitting them for it, and making them pay for a careless overtake, I let them have the line, and do my best to hold the outside. Of course as soon as they do that once, I just ride the inside and don't give them a chance to do it again.
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I've read all sorts of attempts at rules in real automotive racing which attempt to define "position." Front bumper ahead, a-pillar ahead, front wheels, etc. I know once position is established, both drivers are generally responsible for maintaining a race line which allows for both cars to navigate the track (width providing.) Your video at Autumn Ring clearly shows that the AI respects the last part of the rule, provided you respect (which you did) the rule as well. Only more testing will tell. I still can't put my finger on why the AI "feels" less human than Forza 3. Thanks for opening a thread which supports open discussion.
 
RWB1213
I've read all sorts of attempts at rules in real automotive racing which attempt to define "position." Front bumper ahead, a-pillar ahead, front wheels, etc. I know once position is established, both drivers are generally responsible for maintaining a race line which allows for both cars to navigate the track (width providing.) Your video at Autumn Ring clearly shows that the AI respects the last part of the rule, provided you respect (which you did) the rule as well. Only more testing will tell. I still can't put my finger on why the AI "feels" less human than Forza 3. Thanks for opening a thread which supports open discussion.
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Due to my limited experience with Forza AI, I can't really speak on the subject. However, if anyone has some good Forza AI videos (in motion, we have enough of the stuff with the human car sitting in the middle of the road) please feel free to post it in this thread. However I would caution anyone coming into this thread to turn this into a hateful Forza vs. GT thread WILL get reported to a moderator in an attempt to keep the thread open for reasonable comparison and debate. So please fellas, keep it civil, even if the person you are debating with does not.
 
RedSuinit
This is an EVIDENCE thread. Don't just post in here saying, the AI is dumb, or the AI is awesome! If you have actual video evidence of one or the other being true, post it here, and explain the evidence to make your case. I will be posting a whole series of videos demonstrating both the good and the bad, because lets face it, they're both in there.

OH! Hey guys, feel free to put links to replay data on here! You can upload files onto the site, so that they can be downloaded! If you are in GT5, hit export to XMB, then copy that to a flash drive, and send it to me, then I will make a video of it, and put it in this thread!

Video evidence 1:

I apologize for the background noise, my wife was listening to music on the computer. I suggest you just mute it and watch.



As you can see, in this instance the AI shows a lot of competence when it comes to properly racing the human player. The green Cappacino kept pace with me since we were in the same car, and as you can see by the ending, I was pushing the car pretty hard.
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Nice video. AI is not what people think. This video proves some fake comparision were made earlier


 
As in you are drafting another car down a straightaway, and are able to get your car next to his on the inside before reaching the corner, or the other player brakes WAY early and you can late brake past them without screaming through their line as they are taking it. Or when they make a mistake going into a corner and go wide, the you can take over on the inside. The only problem with the last one is that the AI doesn't make a ton of mistakes, which makes overtaking the difficult.
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There are many, many instances where I get ahead on the inside but then simply get "bonked". I hate, hate HATE that "bonk" sound! I desperately try & avoid it, but that involves really hanging back on the outside.

The additional problem is that without peripheral vision (& especially in cockpit view) it's impossible to see exactly where the AI cars are. I believe that the AI cars actually need to be programmed to stay clear - which is the way it worked in F1CE - rather than hold their position come hell-or-high-water.
 
I just wish they were faster, we need more AI levels PD! Doesn't KAZ race against his AI, I'm sure he realises they are pretty slow and brake too early
In an Enduro, they drive ok that way, but in a sprint race, there is no way I should be able to go from 12th to 4th in 3 laps on Pro level....

It's like GT5 is aimed at kids
 
Biggles
There are many, many instances where I get ahead on the inside but then simply get "bonked". I hate, hate HATE that "bonk" sound! I desperately try & avoid it, but that involves really hanging back on the outside.

The additional problem is that without peripheral vision (& especially in cockpit view) it's impossible to see exactly where the AI cars are. I believe that the AI cars actually need to be programmed to stay clear - which is the way it worked in F1CE - rather than hold their position come hell-or-high-water.
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I'm going to do some good testing tonight with a superior car. I'm going to pull up next to them and be on the inside coming into a corner and see what they do, and post it here.
 
CoolColJ
I just wish they were faster, we need more AI levels PD! Doesn't KAZ race against his AI, I'm sure he realises they are pretty slow and brake too early
In an Enduro, they drive ok that way, but in a sprint race, there is no way I should be able to go from 12th to 4th in 3 laps on Pro level....

It's like GT5 is aimed at kids
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One problem is Kaz has the AI driving with imposed rules, such as crashing can lead to damage and driving hard has consequences like worn tires and bad fuel management. Thing is we rarely have to abide by either when we play, I wish they would stop not using the damn restrictions. Use them for goodness sakes, every races should have hp and tire limitations. They look like decorative things and when you hop in a race, you either spank the AI, or catching your ass trying to hang on to 11th place. All the GT All stars, NASCAR, SUPER GT, DTM and race car type races should have rules in place. The others, should use weight limits, hp limits along with type of vehicle limits. Seriously with 1000 cars you can surely find one or two cars that can fit the bill. PD needs to implement some rules that will keep the player in check, too much freedom is a bad thing as it shows in this game. Dumb AI, because they allow me to win using cars that shouldn't, well that is just PD making the race winnable for whatever stupid reason they have. Rules and more rules is what we need, that way you have to drive your ass off in order to win, smooth braking and throttling and use of slimpstream when possible. Adjustable difficulty setting for the no holds barred races that come chock full of purpose built race cars. Your option to use a RM car, might be good if you win and score the underdog type bonus for winning. Seriously some things PD needs to address and that would make some sense in the game.
 
Regular AI, well, there's good and bad, but the S License Tests, it's obvious the AI are scripted. If you go off the page, they tend to stick to their script even though circumstances have changed. Tokyo is an example. Demo shows you behind the red car after the first corner, but you CAN outbrake him and get through the turn ahead. But then, even after getting well ahead, he'll plow into you if you are not careful. Same thing with several other scenarios. You get WELL past the AI, and if there's even the slightest overlap, he plows into you as if he didn't see you at all...

Human drivers, once you SEE the guy get ahead by half a car length or more, well, you've got brains enough to know you have to let off a little or you WILL make contact. AI... not so much. If they have the opportunity to lift or hit you, they'll hit you most of the time.
 
On FM3 the Ai are to much agressive. And this began to make the competition against the "AI" definitely tiring and boring and frustrating.
That's real that AI on GT is not perfect at all, and should be better, and it is possible tweak this Ai from PD, just they must wanto to do this.
Resume, I prefer the GT AI, but I'm not saying that I like the GT AI, that's different.
 
Here is another video showing good AI behavior, but they also do some dumb stuff too.

Video evidence 2:



There are some really good moves made by the AI, but also some really dumb ones. However the smart and good seem to really outweigh the bad and dumb. What do you guys think? Do any of you notice anything in the video that I don't see?
 
Just got off an evening racing online with old SCC friends. It makes the whole subject moot. The online game, with decent, respectful & patient drivers, is very, very good: great graphics, great physics, great cars (drove the Cobra 427 & the F40), mechanical damage & some cool "special effects". 👍 The only thing (somewhat weirdly) missing is qualifying - which I assume will be added at some point. The experience is totally different from racing the AI.

For me GT5 offers two important things: great driving (offline) & great racing (online). Unfortunately good AI just isn't part of the package - it may not be as bad as some people have tried to suggest, but it remains the absolute weakest part of the GT franchise.
 
Biggles
Just got off an evening racing online with old SCC friends. It makes the whole subject moot. The online game, with decent, respectful & patient drivers, is very, very good: great graphics, great physics, great cars (drove the Cobra 427 & the F40), mechanical damage & some cool "special effects". 👍 The only thing (somewhat weirdly) missing is qualifying - which I assume will be added at some point. The experience is totally different from racing the AI.

For me GT5 offers two important things: great driving (offline) & great racing (online). Unfortunately good AI just isn't part of the package - it may not be as bad as some people have tried to suggest, but it remains the absolute weakest part of the GT franchise.
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Qualifying is in. If you do the Normal Race option and set the grid start to "Fastest driver first" those with the fastest times in the regular "Fun drive" mode before you start a race, will be in the front of the grid.

I still disagree with the "good AI" statement. They aren't super aggressive, but if you race them properly, they don't have to be. It would make the racing more fun if they were more aggressive though.
 
CoolColJ
I just wish they were faster, we need more AI levels PD! Doesn't KAZ race against his AI, I'm sure he realises they are pretty slow and brake too early
In an Enduro, they drive ok that way, but in a sprint race, there is no way I should be able to go from 12th to 4th in 3 laps on Pro level....

It's like GT5 is aimed at kids
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I use tires to even out the odds as well as a little less hp. Right now I'm battling expert tuned car championship with standard Ferrari 458 Italia '09 with soft sport tires. I came so close of getting gold but mess up on the last track. There is usually one car tough to beat. I'm having a lot of fun racing Gt5 AI myself. Of course if I just want to win a race just use a overpowering car or/and soft racing tires.
 
Zoom!Zoom!
I use tires to even out the odds as well as a little less hp. Right now I'm battling expert tuned car championship with standard Ferrari 458 Italia '09 with soft sport tires. I came so close of getting gold but mess up on the last track. There is usually one car tough to beat. I'm having a lot of fun racing Gt5 AI myself. Of course if I just want to win a race just use a overpowering car or/and soft racing tires.
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I don't like using that approach, in theory an AI should be faster than a human since they can have access to exactly how much grip their tyres have and can be super precise in riding the edge of that threshold

Maybe they can be in GT5, but PD deliberately dumbs it down for the lowest denominator. Look at Kaz reasons for rubber banding in GT5 Prologue on/offline until it was patched out when people freaked out at this in pro physics events.

Having just 3 levels of AI is not adequate, you can't finetune to 3 coarse values. How about % value of max speed the AI can have with no dumbing down, then you can set it at 90% if you want some breathing room, and then there should be a spread of AI around this value, some slightly faster, some slightly slower.

The AI should also use the same tyres and tune as you do. If you do any of the 1 make races in GT Life, it seems they use stock cars, and I have no idea what tyres they are using, but I can blow them away in 1 lap :(

Information and options - 2 things every GT game has always lacked, and yet 5-6 years of dev time never seems to rectify this :indiff:
 
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CoolColJ
Me getting pitted by the AI just then :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOt-xjn0ohI
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LOL. Epic fail. I hope you don't drive like that in real life!

Check your mirror before changing lanes.

But this is exactly what I notice 90% of the time it's your fault not the AI.

EDIT: On second look you're changing lanes right and then the AI also tries to change lanes left and his front end clips your rear end.
 
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Aww man don't blame the human player for that pit maneuver. :rolleyes: He was straightening up his line when the other car took him out. But like others have said, the AI is both good and bad. Maybe "bad" isn't the right word because since the AI is pre-programmed I just think there are certain instances where the AI is truly "unaware" of the human driver on the track and just proceeds like they aren't there. Not all the time but in instances where you're next to them they randomly show a lack of recognition of your car and don't register a reaction. Even if the human driver in that video was at fault the AI driver is still not acting correctly at all, no braking, no reaction to what is going on.
 
Goudvis
You turned to the right, made the move. Surely you can't expect the AI to brake in order to avoid you? If there's no room on the rigth, you can't go there.

And obviously because he hits you at the back, you're spinning and not him.
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I was drifting across at first but I then straightened up, but he also moved across to cause the contact.

See if I can get a replay from his perspective, or the car behind. Not sure if I saved it
 
CoolColJ
I was drifting across at first but I then straightened up, but he also moved across to cause the contact.

See if I can get a replay from his perspective, or the car behind. Not sure if I saved it
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Yeh he might turned into you there. Still, it's more a "race incident" than a horrible pit imo.
 
Goudvis
You turned to the right, made the move. Surely you can't expect the AI to brake in order to avoid you? If there's no room on the rigth, you can't go there.
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Why not? Ok it's a race but you in real life would you do something like this? Maybe I wouldn't brake but at least I wouldn't keep accellerating in order to spin another driver out....
 
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Mugenjin
I think a video of Extreme Nascar Daytona race would provide lots and lots of horrible pits :P
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Well, the pits does happen in Nascar. It cost Dale Earnhardt his life. Yet no doubt the AI does pit the player a little too often (especially when they are packed together) and has room to improve yet I have to admit I've pitted the AI as well.
 
LOL. Epic fail. I hope you don't drive like that in real life!

Check your mirror before changing lanes.

But this is exactly what I notice 90% of the time it's your fault not the AI.

EDIT: On second look you're changing lanes right and then the AI also tries to change lanes left and his front end clips your rear end.
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CoolCol does drift over to the right in order to maneuver past the slower car in front, but there's no question that the AI car also cuts to the left. CoolCol is definitely IN FRONT of the AI car, so IRL the other driver would straighten up or back off to avoid the contact. Instead the AI car just plows right into the back of CoolCol's car: definitely the AI car is responsible for the contact. I have no idea why anyone would seek to characterize it any other way.

In addition, IN THE GAME there's no way for CoolCol to SEE the AI car (certainly not visible in side view, & probably not in rear view), which makes it doubly necessary for the AI to be more reactive. This is actually a GREAT EXAMPLE of what is wrong with the AI: it's not nearly reactive enough to the presence of the player's car.
 
CoolColJ
Me getting pitted by the AI just then :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOt-xjn0ohI
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In all fairness you had just as much a part in that as the AI did, all you had to do was pull back left so I think that is a poor example

From all the racing I have done on GT5 I have had very little issue with the AI. For example, last night I did the historic car race in my new Jag XJ13 and I had tyhat Chapparal right behind me all race, if I broke a bit early (not great at Monaco) he either braked earlier or braked a bit later but went down the outside of me (as I took the inside line)

As to overtaking, when I've gone down the inside I have traded paint with the AI, and yes I have been pitted, but have you ever watched touring cars? It's a part of racing! Yes the AI hit you but you also hit the AI aswell as other players online!
 
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