Vintage Racing

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JohnBM01

JohnBM01

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It looks like six more weeks of winter, folks. The cute little groundhog saw its shadow. No worries. Still heating up over the Feb. 22nd release of GT4!

GTPlanet, I figured I'd tackle another type of racing- vintage racing. It can be so interesting to be able to race history. Isn't it beautiful to race something like a Shelby GT350 against a collection of Corvettes and Barracudas? A V12 Ferrari is always beautiful music. Autorotica's coverage of the Goodwood Revival featured Alain de Cadenet racing a nice Ferrari 250GT with a beautiful roar. You talk about "sex on wheels," this is about as best as you can get.

But there's a price for this nostalgic beauty. If you don't properly control it during a race, you might break something. People say that racing is a deathsport, but being able to control these machines wonderfully is rewarded with lovely handling that exceeds belief.

GTPlanet, this topic is about vintage racing. Talk about vintage racing events be it rally, road race, drag race, or whatever. What do you think about the concept of vintage racing? Tell us about some other moments in vintage racing. GTPlanet, it's time to go older than old school. If you dig that, this thread awaits your reply.
 
The historic touring cars are half the reason I go to V8 Supercar meetings. The cars sound and look great and the driving is always spectacular. The drivers aren't afraid to get the tail out and the tyres smoking in their 30 year old touring cars. There is always a good mix of Mustangs, Camaros, Monaros, Toranas, EHs, Falcons, Galaxies, Lotus Cortinas, Escorts, Chargers, Jaguars, Minis, Alfa Romeos and plenty more.
Go to this website and click on "Take a quick lap of Bathurst". It's not the best footage but it sounds awesome. Listen to the Mustang as it goes over the hump on Mountain Straight and listen to the short shifts as the car exits the Cutting and the Chase. Nothing beats the sound of a carburettored V8 with little or no muffling.
http://www.htcav.asn.au/Index.html

This is the website for the series that supports the V8 Supercars.
http://www.historictouringcars.com.au/

The car in the attachment is the car from the Bathurst video.
 

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Schrodes - this looks like an Aussie version of the series i race in in the UK. We run Lotus Cortinas ;) Alfa GT's, BMW 1800s, Mustangs, Galaxies, Falcons, Jag MK2s, Minis, Imps etc - the line-up in that Aussie series look to include some 'younger' models than we are allowed - i think we can go upto 1965, which i believe rules out Camaros and certainly Escorts. Do they run with slicks? - we have to use 'period' Dunlop treaded cross-plys, which leads to plenty of 4-wheel drifting and tail-out action - these cars are certainly as fun to drive as they look!
 
I just love the vintage cars.Every time they are on tv,I watch and remember the days of past.GT4 in Feb?I was told March up here.
 
Sounds pretty similar TheCracker. It was called Appendix J until a few years ago when they changed it to Group N and as the website says the newest cars that are allowed to run are from 1972. They are split into classes. Group Na=pre1958, Group Nb=1959-1964, Group Nc=1965-1972. When some of the newer cars were allowed to run like the Boss 302 Mustangs, some of the older cars were allowed improvements to stay competitive. Eg, the 289ci Mustangs were allowed to put in a 302. They use radial or cross-ply tyres, no slicks, but I think they can use any brand.
 
Ours run to FIA appendix K and group 5 regulations - cars homologated upto the end of 1965. Upto about 10 years ago we were a support series to the BTCC and the regulations were a bit losser. People were starting to put a lot of money into the series and build Camaros and the like with contemporay racing rubberand no one could keep up with that kind of investment. So the regulations were tightened up and we adopted some period regulations instead- http://www.club-noticeboard.com/racing/4.html

The regulations for your Aussie series sound similar to our older regs, in fact they sound similar to Americas Historic trans-am series - http://www.historictransam.com/homepage.htm
 
The Mustang used by Allan Moffat in the Australian Touring Car Championship in the early 70's was actually a Trans-Am Mustang built for that series until Moffat purchased it. Bob Jane won the ATCC in a Camaro which would have been very similar to that Donohue/Penske Camaro in that Historic Trans-Am website. Our Group N and the Historic Trans-Ams appear to be very similar except that while the Trans-Am cars all appear to be proper sports/performance/muscle cars, racing in the ATCC in that era and therefore permitted in Group N now include cars such as the Ford Falcon and Holden Kingswood which are family sedans modified for racing.
 
I think to compete in the American Trans-Am series you have to run an actual ex-Trans-Am car - they were all given chassis plates in period, you can't just re-create one using any old mustang/camaro/challenger. Allan Moffat could probably sell his mustang to an american enthusiast for a tidy sum!

Is that a Trans-Am Camaro in your avatar?
 
I think the car would be worth a fortune now. It is owned by collector David Bowden who has many historically significant touring cars in his collection.
The car in my avatar is a photo of the 1:18 scale model of Bob Janes ZL-1 Camaro, of which only 69 were built. It had an all aluminium 7 litre V8 and Bob used the car to win the 1971 ATCC. The rules changed the next year and Bob changed to the 5.7 litre V8 because there were no Camaros sold in Australia with the 7 litre. He won the championship again. The car now belongs to Bob Jane again and has been fully restored with the 7 litre engine by the bloke who was his crew chief in 1971/72. I can't find a decent photo of the real car and Classic Carlectables have taken their photos of the model off the website but here is a photo of the Moffat Mustang.
 

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So what do you all think about racing these priceless classics and rarities in competition? We know about the beauties in general, but what about the competition aspect? Think of the Monterrey Historics, Classic Adelaide, Targa Newfounland, Classic Adelaide, Goodwood Festival of Speed, Goodwood Revival, and that sort of thing.
 
JohnBM01
So what do you all think about racing these priceless classics and rarities in competition? We know about the beauties in general, but what about the competition aspect? Think of the Monterrey Historics, Classic Adelaide, Targa Newfounland, Classic Adelaide, Goodwood Festival of Speed, Goodwood Revival, and that sort of thing.
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These cars were built with the soul purpose of racing. The teams (say Ferrari for instance) were never precious about their racing cars, they were never 'detail' finished the way they appear today. If you ever see period photos of these cars, you would be suprised at how tatty they look, even fresh from the factory. Cars like these should be raced - they are racing machines not 'art' there only to be looked at, no matter how beautiful they are.

Steve Earle (Monterey Historics founder) doesn't really encourage racing at his race meetings, if you ever watch any footage of the Laguna Seca historic races its more like a procession than a race. The organisers even ticked-off Sterling Moss for being too competitive when he raced a Shelby GT350!. Whats the point in having some of the greatest racing cars, coupled with the greatest racing drivers at one of the greatest race circuits in the world to drive around half-heartedly - its a criminal waste!

Lord March, on the other hand, who runs the Goodwood Festival of Speed and Revival Meetings wants (especially with the revival meeting) to re-create period competition as it was in Goodwood's hay days, meaning great cars and hard-driving. If a car gets damaged, then its a shame, but it can be fixed.

These cars only command astronomical prices because they are made to be so precious by owners who over-restore them to a standard much finer than when they left the factory, making them unreal in a sense. You don't go into a top restaurant, buy a fantastic meal cooked by a top chef - then take it home to look at and admire do you?
 
Most of the people who race historic cars here understand the significance of these cars and are aware of the repair costs hence they tend to give each other plenty of racing room.
 
Schrodes
Most of the people who race historic cars here understand the significance of these cars and are aware of the repair costs hence they tend to give each other plenty of racing room.
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Same here, our series has some very competitive racing, but we all know how expensive it is to repair or source parts for our cars so 'door-banging' is a no-no.
 
At the Monterrey Historics,you touch another car you are asked to leave and you are never invited back.
 
Goodwood is a special situation. Goodwood is just a nice session of bringing back classic racing with classic cars. Where else are you going to see a track left the same way it was when it was closed down, and still have great racing take place there? I don't know about you, but that's authenticity. That's old school cool with capital O, capital S, and capital C.

With the Monterrey Historics deal, I don't think you'll see any "trading paint" a lot of times, and if you did, you'd probably get something saying "go home, and don't come back." Laguna Seca is perhaps the toughest road course in America, and part of the reason includes the Corkscrew, which is responsible for winning races, but also throwing them away. You get it wrong there, you may have lost all hope. It's still a nice deal. It's a nice deal whether you're racing VERY OLD F1 cars or Trans-Am beaters from the 1960s and 1970s.

Personally, I'd race to my heart's content, and just be careful not to wreck a piece of history. A fantasy example of this is why I keep wrecking my Jaguar XKE or XKD in the game "TOCA Race Driver 2." By the way, does anyone remember the D-Type Jaguars at Goodwood last year? Oh, man... what a beautiful lady she was!
 
The Vintage Grand Prix was just at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course last weekend, and I caught the final day on Sunday. It was awesome. Vintage races are easily my favorite to go see in person. Check out www.svra.com for info about future events. Check here for specific info about the entries in the race and photos from it http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.nsf/weblinks/EJEN-674PWL?OpenDocument#rr. I own a '64 Porsche 356C and this past weekend Porsche was the featured marque. There was an all porsche race as well as an interesting Group 3 race, which consited of a bunch of 356s, against cars from Lotus, Austin Healey, Datsun, MG, Morgan, Ford (Old Escort), Fiat. The race was won by a 356 speedster, big suprise. There were a bunch of other racing groups there as well, 10 total. One of my favs was a '67 Porsche 907LH. To bad no 917Ks made it to the race. Guess I'll have to go to Monterey/Laguna Seca to see one of those.
 
Greet topic, dad and i race historic cars in Australia, but at the meetings you get see a large range of vintage cars as well cars from all different eras, get plenty of good pics as well. You mentioned GT350's against corvettes, here and example.... GT350 against Mini Marcos with a Vette not in picture but in the same race.....plenty more if requested of different types.


and here on pre grid up



👍 all pictures from Historic Winton race meet.
 
Darken8
Greet topic, dad and i race historic cars in Australia, but at the meetings you get see a large range of vintage cars as well cars from all different eras, get plenty of good pics as well. You mentioned GT350's against corvettes, here and example.... GT350 against Mini Marcos with a Vette not in picture but in the same race.....plenty more if requested of different types.
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I too race historics (in the uk) with my dad - what do you run?
 
A Vauxhaul J Special, 1939, 1800cc 6 cylinder. Have a Singer Special and Dodge Fargo SPecial being built at the moment. They should be track ready within 12 months.

Pic here



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what do you race?
 
Darken8
what do you race?
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<------- :sly:

Not got any good pix at the moment - cars been stripped and re-built over the winter.

I'll try and post a few pix from this
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Darken8
A Vauxhaul J Special, 1939, 1800cc 6 cylinder. Have a Singer Special and Dodge Fargo SPecial being built at the moment. They should be track ready within 12 months.

Pic here



close up



what do you race?
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I think my uncle races those kind of historic cars, he has a Plymouth Prowler, I might be going to one of his races interstate, hopefully Phillip Island or Eastern Creek.
 
For those from Sydney there will be big day at Eastern Creek on the 30th of October. It's the Australian Muscle Car Masters put on by Australian Muscle Car Magazine. They are going to have the Biante Historic Touring Car Series, Group A and Group C touring car races and demonstration laps, Formula 5000 and Can-Am Sports Car demonstrations, exhibits from the National Motor Racing Museum, some cars from David Bowden's collection, several different car clubs and drivers like Peter Brock, Allan Moffat, Colin Bond, Leo Geoghegan, John Goss and lots more. It should be a great day.
 
I've heard of Classic Adelaide and that seemed like a cool event, even with Murray Walker doing commentary while driving, if I remember correctly. There was even an event a few years ago called "Tour de France Auto" which seemed pretty cool as well.
 
I've never been to the classic Adelaide, and I live in Adelaide... Last time it was on there was apparently great cars like Ford GT40's. :(
 
I had a great day at the Australian Muscle Car Masters a few weeks ago. It rained all day so some of the more valuable cars like Moffat's Mustang and Jane's Camaro didn't do any laps but they were there for all to see. Many of the cars that were entered into the Group A and Group C races didnt run either as the tyre supplier was busy with the East Coast Rally. There were still plenty of cars however.
The star of the day would have been V8 Supercar driver Jason Richards. He drove Paul Stubber's yellow Camaro in the Group N races and also drove Stubber's A9X Torana in the combined Group A and C races. The A9X is the ex John Harvey HDT car. The Camaro, which was capable of 296kph on Conrod Straight at Bathurst, struggled at Eastern Creek in the wet against the XU-1 Toranas. Richards finished around fourth or fifth in the three races with Toranas filling the top spots.
It was a different story in the Group A/C races. Richards won all three races. His main rivals were Terry Ashwood in a R31 Nissan Skyline (He owns two of these along with the 1992 'Winfield' R32, a Group A Gazelle and Exa and the Bluebird that got pole at Bathurst in 1984. I think he was driving the ex Skaife car.) and Frank Binding in the ex Bob Muir 'Army Reserve' Ford Falcon XD, which is the feature car in the current edition of Australian Muscle Car Magazine. Richards usually had a 9 second lead by lap two so there wasn't really much competition. In race two, Richards was ahead by his 9 seconds when he had to serve a drive through penalty on lap two for creeping at the start. He fell behind a fair bit but he drove the wheels off the car to catch back up to the leaders and take back the lead, with about four laps left. There was a great battle in race three between Binding and Ashwood for second place. Ashwood came out on top in that battle but I was a bit surprised that the big 5.8 litre V8 couldn't get the 3 litre turbo on the straight. Richard's A9X with a 5 litre V8 had no problem blasting by the Skyline in race two.
There were plenty of club cars there doing parade laps including a white 69 Camaro that was a pace car at the Indianapolis 500 at some stage.
I took some photos but it's only a little digital camera that we haven't had for long so they're not great.






 

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