Volkswagen Buys Proton/Lotus (Post #36)

[red70mach1]

I knew that this company made a motorcycle campaigned by Kenny Roberts Sr.'s race team (as Proton Team KR).

 

[Tornado]

Never a lightweight? It started off weighing under 1000kgs and ended up still weighing less than 1280kgs - 50kgs less than a Mk5 Golf.

And when compared to other Lotus' sold immediately before and immediately after, it wasn't. Lotus went from the 700kg Europa to the 900 kg Esprit. Which, need I mention, shot up to 1000 kg within 2 years. By 1981 with the Turbo Esprit, weight had gone up to 1100 kg. I'd also like to know where you came up with your "1280" number, because that particular landmark had been eclipsed way before the V8 was installed.
Those things being said, perhaps I should have been more clear:
The Esprit was never a lightweight for a Lotus.

 

[niky]

Everything in Malaysia with government involvement = crap.

Simple example:

Malaysia airlines: has all the advantages of being the national carrier and among the best airlines in the world, but..unprofitable for god knows how long. Reason is the government has a hand in it...politics..corruption..you name it, they have it.

Air asia: Basically unknown 5 years ago but now asia's largest budget carrier. Reason = effective management without messy politicians.

Proton had the opportunity to be world class, the had lotus, the once had MV agusta, the once had the full support of the citizens(in the beginning from 1985-1995) and then it started to rot....

Spoken from frustration, huh? I know the feeling. At least you guys got the chance at a local auto-industry... we got stuck with poorly made AUVs that we finally ended up buying from Thailand because the local makers couldn't cut it.

Another big part of Proton's problems was the need to be an entirely Malaysian company. When they were still buying parts from the Japanese, things were peachy (an acquaintance has one of the old Wiras), but as more and more local content started to creep in, quality and reliability took a nose-dive. Without the tax protection, I doubt Proton could have survived this long.

Too bad... the Gen.2 looked promising at first... then you saw the comical interior... ...but the Proton I will forever regret not having come to our LHD market is the Satria GTi. Oh, I know it's just a rebadged decade old Mirage with a tweaked suspension and engine... but it's a cute warm hatch that would've actually sold here...

 

[TheCracker]

And when compared to other Lotus' sold immediately before and immediately after, it wasn't. Lotus went from the 700kg Europa to the 900 kg Esprit. Which, need I mention, shot up to 1000 kg within 2 years. By 1981 with the Turbo Esprit, weight had gone up to 1100 kg. I'd also like to know where you came up with your "1280" number, because that particular landmark had been eclipsed way before the V8 was installed.
Those things being said, perhaps I should have been more clear:
The Esprit was never a lightweight for a Lotus.

It was also Lotus's first car in that market segment and therefore much larger than anything they'd made up until that point. So the fact that it was heavier is hardly suprising.

 

[TsLeng]

Spoken from frustration, huh? I know the feeling. At least you guys got the chance at a local auto-industry... we got stuck with poorly made AUVs that we finally ended up buying from Thailand because the local makers couldn't cut it.

Another big part of Proton's problems was the need to be an entirely Malaysian company. When they were still buying parts from the Japanese, things were peachy (an acquaintance has one of the old Wiras), but as more and more local content started to creep in, quality and reliability took a nose-dive. Without the tax protection, I doubt Proton could have survived this long.

Too bad... the Gen.2 looked promising at first... then you saw the comical interior... ...but the Proton I will forever regret not having come to our LHD market is the Satria GTi. Oh, I know it's just a rebadged decade old Mirage with a tweaked suspension and engine... but it's a cute warm hatch that would've actually sold here...

Proton bashing is a hobby for many malaysians ya know....and you can even find whole forums dedicated to bashing proton..LOL

and yup..in the beginning, parts are MMC made. Then cost cutting comes in and local parts(made by companies of cronies of course) started to show its effects.

The satria GTi is the best proton to date. Engine can be easily modified as well.👍

The only other proton worth a look at now is the satria Neo.

 

[YSSMAN]

*** BREAKING NEWS!!! ***

German automaker Volkswagen — which already owns Audi, Bentley, Seat, Skoda, Lamborghini, and Bugatti — has agreed to buy a majority stake in Malaysia's Proton, according to a report by XFN-Asia.

Perhaps most important to car enthusiasts is the involvement of Lotus, which is owned by Proton, and therefore would come under control of Volkswagen.

Today's report indicates VW would buy a 51 percent stake in the company, which it could conceivably expand in the future. An official announcement is expected on February 8th, the news agency said.

Earlier this month, it was reported General Motors might be considering a majority stake in the company. However, it appears VW may have managed to close a deal first.

Excellent! If I couldn't have GM doing it, VAG is always there to make me happy. Good job with the choice there VW, this should make things very interesting in the next few years. Who wants to bet we see a TSI-powered Elise in the next year or so?

 

[niky]

On the more practical side... maybe this means that VW is serious about going mass-market in Asia.

Not big news for you Europeans or Americans, but as even the crappy and now ironically named "New" Beetles sell here for as much as a Camry 3.5 V6, maybe a stake in Proton will help bring cheaper VWs to the ASEAN.

A TSi-powered Elise... meh... boost doesn't really suit the Elise's character... it has always been about response and useability, not power (guess why EVO rated the "base" Elise so highly over the Exige?).

I'd rather see that wonderful 4.2 V8 from the RS4 (unboosted) in a modern Esprit.

 

[Poverty]

haha go VW

 

[Appie]

So VW only bought 51% of Proton/Lotus

 

[Poverty]

Will VW now be the 3rd largest manufacturer?

Just imagine if porsche buys VW now

 

[Race Idiot]

Yay I can't wait for realy heavy elises full of safety equipment and drive by wire.

 

[Leonidae]

oh dear.. soon we'll have yet another fwd Lotus.

 

[Race Idiot]

oh dear.. soon we'll have yet another fwd Lotus.

That fwd Elan is one of the best front wheel drive cars ever handling wise, I used to work with a guy who daily drove his to work and damn that car could corner.

 

[1X83Z]

Yes! Volkswagen buys another supercar brand, hopefully leading to more in-fighting amongst it and Porsche as to whether there should be a single vehicle on Earth that competes with Porsche.

 

[95GTIVR6]

Now Volkswagen, will you PLEASE re-think the GX3. PLEASE!

 

[Tornado]

Yes! Volkswagen buys another supercar brand, hopefully leading to more in-fighting amongst it and Porsche as to whether there should be a single vehicle on Earth that competes with Porsche.

Seconded. Makes no real sense financially, no matter how you look at it.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Will VW now be the 3rd largest manufacturer?

Just imagine if porsche buys VW now

Yes we'll end up with porsche having almost complete control over the sub £100,000 sports car market meaning that all other manufacturers will be obsolete.


Yippee, fricking do.

 

[land sea air]

It's all part of VAGs plan to monopolize the sports car under Porsche.. Honest I read it in a book somwhere.




Ok maybe not

 

[Poverty]

Quick correction VW may only be buying Proton auto division only.
So Lotus may end up still with Proton Holding Bhd

On other news a MK2 TT in development with more power has lapped the 'ring in 8mins 16 secs

 

[Tornado]

Which, funnily enough, makes even LESS sense. Why the hell would Volkswagen by the Malaysian version of Seat? They will just have to throw tons of money at it to make it worth anything.
Its like buying FIAT, but then realising Ferrari doesn't come with it. Only worse, because you don't have to buy Lotus to get its expertise (quite the opposite in fact: buying Lotus usually hurts more than helps).

 

[Poverty]

Anything lotus has expertise in anyone else can do with enough money. VW and GM didnt think of buying proton for lotus, they couldnt care less about lotus most likely, its the market that proton is in thats the huge moneymaker.

And how is proton the malaysian version of seat?

 

[YSSMAN]

I still think you guys are blowing the whole Porsche buys into Volkswagen buys into Porsche deal. Certainly Porsche has a part of Volkswagen in their hands, a little over 15%, and certainly they are looking to expand it to 20%. However that doesn't make them the supreme overlords at VAG. They have influence, just as VAG has on Porsche, but they lack control at the moment.

With VAG buying-out 51% of Proton, it is unclear how much of that will have an effect on Lotus, given that Proton owned less than 65% of the company. Volkswagen may be able to tap Lotus remotely, but I think Niky's assumption was correct in that VAG wants to increase production in Asia to lower the prices on their vehicles, or convert the Proton lines to VAG models, and continue to sell them under the Proton name.

...Lotus is the bonus gift in the whole situation, but we won't know until the official announcements are made sometime next week or shortly thereafter. My guess is that VAG will play with Proton a bit, but they are in it for Lotus. VAG loves to spend money, and Lotus will be loving to spend what it can get. They have absolutely nothing to worry about with Porsche as they cater to two completely different groups of people, and Lamborghini and Audi shall feel no threat either. This one is between VW the brand and Lotus, thats about it.

 

[Tornado]

Anything lotus has expertise in anyone else can do with enough money.

So the reason everyone seems to go to Lotus for suspension design (hell, even DeLorean went to them) is for craps and giggles?

VW and GM didnt think of buying proton for lotus, they couldnt care less about lotus most likely, its the market that proton is in thats the huge moneymaker.

You are completely missing the point. Proton is a mess of a company, and the only logical reason one would want it is to get Lotus. The thing is, Lotus will happily contract their expertise out, and have done so many times before (Lotus Cortina, for example). Hell, if they wanted to share a car with Lotus all they would need to do is kick in money for the development cost and Lotus would happily share the designs (Opel Speedster, again). There is no reason to buy either company, especially not Proton.

And how is proton the malaysian version of seat?

Being the VAG fan you are, one would think you would remember that when Volkswagen bought into SEAT in 1986, it was a horrible mess of a company, relying on poorly remade and old FIAT designs to keep afloat.
Proton is the exact same thing, only subtract poorly rebadged, old FIAT designs and add poorly rebadged, old Mitsubishi designs. They still sell a rebadged version of the 5th and 6th gen. Mitsubishi Lancer, for chrissakes (as two different cars, no less). When the AFTA kills off the import tax, Proton is done. It makes no sense to buy into Proton now, as it would probably be cheaper to just start from scratch in Malaysia rather than turn Proton around to boost sales and offset poor consumer memories.

 

[1X83Z]

Which, funnily enough, makes even LESS sense. Why the hell would Volkswagen by the Malaysian version of Seat? They will just have to throw tons of money at it to make it worth anything.

Yeah, but if there's one thing Volkswagen's good at, it's that.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Heh, so, we can expect another variation of the MKVI Golf, then? Because I don't think we have quite enough of the MKV running around.

This doesn't make any sense to me, considering VW has really needed to start being careful with it's money. The only way it makes sense is if the proposed mid-engined model is then just modelled off of the MK3 Elise... and a car in the Elise mold really doesn't gel with any of VW's arms, except maybe Seat. Which means we'll see a similar situation to the SLR; VW will demand a plush, fat-arse Elise so that it can be marketed as an Audi.

Of course, if we got the Esprit on a RWD version of the Gallardo chassis, that'd be pretty cool. Still, I don't see any real positives to this, because most likely, VW is primarily concerned with improving it and Audi's reputation at the expense of new additions (hello, Lambo R8).

...Also, chiming in that a force-fed engine doesn't suit the Elise very well. Definitely the Exige, to take the place of the even-peakier supercharged engine, but the Elise just seems to suit a nice all-rounder engine.

 

[Poverty]

If VW wanted Lotus, they would have bought lotus without having to acquire proton. They dont care about lotus.

So the reason everyone seems to go to Lotus for suspension design (hell, even DeLorean went to them) is for craps and giggles?

When was the last time anyone went to lotus for help.....

Ok maybe you americans need it, but I think the germans dont, especially seeing as VAG do have Porsche at hand, and can gain more than enough expertise from lambo, bentley and bugatti products.

We arent even sure if lotus will come under the control of VAG aswell yet.

Its the car enthiussiats in you that makes you guys think VAG is in it for lotus. They couldnt care less

 

[ExigeEvan]

I still think you guys are blowing the whole Porsche buys into Volkswagen buys into Porsche deal. Certainly Porsche has a part of Volkswagen in their hands, a little over 15%, and certainly they are looking to expand it to 20%. However that doesn't make them the supreme overlords at VAG. They have influence, just as VAG has on Porsche, but they lack control at the moment.

Porsche had huge 'influence' over how the Audi R8 was positioned in the price/power tables. Do you really think Porsche will let Audi sign-off a faster more powerful version of the R8 that could compete with the higher ranges of the 911 family?

Now while Porsche don't have any real competitor to the Elise/Exige, it is certainly possible they could influence the power/price of the future high end Lotus if it may compete with their products just like they did with the R8.

 

[Famine]

When was the last time anyone went to lotus for help.....

Ok maybe you americans need it, but I think the germans dont

Last time anyone went to Lotus for help? I think it was a small German holding called "Opel" asking Lotus to build them a low-volume sports car for the European market...

 

[Poverty]

Porsche had huge 'influence' over how the Audi R8 was positioned in the price/power tables. Do you really think Porsche will let Audi sign-off a faster more powerful version of the R8 that could compete with the higher ranges of the 911 family?

Now while Porsche don't have any real competitor to the Elise/Exige, it is certainly possible they could influence the power/price of the future high end Lotus if it may compete with their products just like they did with the R8.

How exactly dif porsche have influence over the R8? Where is your proof? And the diesel R8 will shatter alot of porsches when it comes to straightline performance, but going by what you say porsche wont "sign it off" as it will tread on their toes

Porsche doesnt interfer with what audi does. It was lambo that has stopped the R8 getting that 600hp biturbo petrol engine.

 

[Poverty]

Last time anyone went to Lotus for help? I think it was a small German holding called "Opel" asking Lotus to build them a low-volume sports car for the European market...

forgot about that one, not sure if I would call it help as such though.