VOTE for Best French Car

[Poverty]

It was also not invented or used by Merc prior to Citroen

The merc with that fancy suspension thing im talking about was released in 1951, four years before the DS.

 

[niallz06]

Rather a bold claim, as I don't recall anyone saying "I'm not voting for the Transit because M5P told me not to", I could make an equal claim based on my argument that the Transit should not have been in the poll because its a Commercial Vehicle not a car.



On what grounds does one of the single most important cars in European (and certainly French) motoring history not deserve it?

Ta

Scaff

scaff you did it again .

commercial veihicle - van

most important european car? i think not, that would have to be the 1886 daimler benz motor carriage. For starting the whole 'car' trend off

 

[Dave A]

It was a variation of one of Citorens systems, Mercedes didn't invent it nor use it first. It wasn't the same system as found in the DS either, the DS' was all new. If a new car came out today that was as technically advanced and innovative compared to the rest of todays cars as the DS was back then it would likely put the Bugatti to shame in terms of technical achievemnts, it wouldn't be a supercar, but it would be more technological and provide more innovation.

 

[Scaff]

The merc with that fancy suspension thing im talking about was released in 1951, four years before the DS.

Model please and I will check in my big book(s) of all things Merc because every source I have access to (and thats a lot of books) shows no 1951 Merc with Hydropneumatic suspension.

A breif history of Hydropneumatic Suspension

Citroën first introduced this system in 1954 on the rear suspension of the Traction Avant. The first full implementation was in the advanced DS in 1955.

Major milestones of the hydropneumatics design were:

* During World War II, Paul Mages, an employee of Citroen, with no formal training in enginering, secretly develops the concept of an air/oil suspension to combine a new level of softness with vehicle control and self-leveling
* 1954 Traction Avant 15H: Rear suspension, using LHS hydraulic fluid.
* 1955 DS: Suspension, power steering, brakes and optionally the gearbox/clutch assembly powered by high pressure hydralic assistance. A belt driven pump, similar in size to a power steering pump generates this pressure when the engine is running.
* 1962 Morris introduces the BMC ADO16 {'1100'} with hydrolastic suspension
* 1964 Mercedes-Benz introduces the 600 with air suspension designed to avoid Citroën patents
* 1965 Rolls-Royce licenses Citroen technology for the suspension of the new Silver Shadow
* 1966 Mercedes-Benz introduces the 6.3 also with air suspension
* 1967 The superior LHM mineral fluid is introduced
* 1970 GS: Adaptation of the hydropneumatic suspension to a small car
* 1970 SM: Variable speed auto returning power steering, dubbed DIRAVI, and hydraulically powered directional high beams
* 1974 The Mercedes-Benz 450SEL 6.9 becomes the first hydropneumatic Mercedes-Benz automobile, with the pump driven by the engine's timing chain instead of an external belt. This adaptation was used only for the suspension. Power steering and brakes were conventional hydraulic- and vacuum-powered, respectively.
* 1983 Citroën BX, built as a 4WD in 1990
* 1989 XM: electronic regulation of the hydropneumatic system; sensors measure acceleration and other factors and dynamically alter suspension characteristics- Hydractive
* 1990 Peugeot 405 Mi16x4: first Peugeot equipped with rear hydropneumatic suspension
* 1993 Xantia: Optional 'Activa' system, eliminating body roll by acting on torsion bars. An 'Activa' equipped Xantia was able to reach more than 1 g lateral acceleration
* 2001 C5: No more central hydraulic pressure generation; combined pump/sphere unit for the suspension only and with electric height adjustment sensors.


Regards

Scaff

 

[barryl85]

The DS??? Dont be stupid, the PSP is much better!

Ok it was a bad joke - I have respect for the Citroen DS, but i have voted for the Clio (maybe sounds a wierd decision but i stand with my decision).

The DS was a masterful on the enginuity side, very much a masterpeice, first time i ever seen or heard of it was on 'Top Gear' after what they rated the car i respect it, possibly the only french production car Jeremy Clarkson has ever liked!

He mentioned how nearly every modern day car has borrowed technology from the DS.

But.... I hate Citroen and their cars, IMO they are ugly unreliable and cheaply made (most of them that is).

I chose the clio as it is so popular in the UK, very nice to drive in my opinion (maybe not everyone will agree) but for the money you pay for one, you get a very very good car with loads of extra's and probably one of the most reliable French Hatchbacks.

 

[niallz06]

The DS??? Dont be stupid, the PSP is much better!

Ok it was a bad joke - I have respect for the Citroen DS, but i have voted for the Clio (maybe sounds a wierd decision but i stand with my decision).

The DS was a masterful on the enginuity side, very much a masterpeice, first time i ever seen or heard of it was on 'Top Gear' after what they rated the car i respect it, possibly the only french production car Jeremy Clarkson has ever liked!

He mentioned how nearly every modern day car has borrowed technology from the DS.

But.... I hate Citroen and their cars, IMO they are ugly unreliable and cheaply made (most of them that is).

im not quite so sure, he seems to like the new C6
as for the anti citroen comment KER-CHING! the 2002 xsara picasso (the M.P.V) had an interior like a 1960's caravan! the regular xsara looks like a door stop and a box on the back (and is probably as much fun to drive)
the C2 is made for the u.k's C.H.A.V society
the C3 is aimed at old people
the C4 is o.k i guess

niallz06

 

[Scaff]

and probably one of the most reliable French Hatchbacks.

Ohhhh sorry but you just made my wife hit me for laughing too much.

I spent two years working for Renault's customer service department, reliable is not a word I would use with the Clio.

Ta

Scaff

 

[barryl85]

im not quite so sure, he seems to like the new C6
as for the anti citroen comment KER-CHING! the 2002 xsara picasso (the M.P.V) had an interior like a 1960's caravan! the regular xsara looks like a door stop and a box on the back (and is probably as much fun to drive)
the C2 is made for the u.k's C.H.A.V society
the C3 is aimed at old people
the C4 is o.k i guess

niallz06

Exactly, The C4 actually reminds me of a Honda CRX from behind, i find the whole Citroen and Peugeot thing annoying too, they have nearly the same designs, even though they are basicly the same company, they might aswell create a bigger market for themselves with creating different designs!

oh and the Saxo and 106's (i absolutely hate these cars even though i like the shape of the GTi's, Quicksilvers, Rallye's, VTR's and VTS's) are also chav cars which was the predecessors of the C2 crap, anyone ever tried to drive one? i have size nine feet which is pretty average and i cant use the pedals, its like three lollypop sticks very close together!

 

[Famine]

Ohhhh sorry but you just made my wife hit me for laughing too much.

I spent two years working for Renault's customer service department, reliable is not a word I would use with the Clio.

Ta

Scaff

I was temporarily stunned into paralysis too.

Our top-of-the-range-that-isn't-Renaultsport 1.6 Clio is appalling to drive, very badly made and shockingly unreliable. I can't think of a single plus point about it - apart from the fact I don't have to drive it ever.

 

[barryl85]

Ohhhh sorry but you just made my wife hit me for laughing too much.

I spent two years working for Renault's customer service department, reliable is not a word I would use with the Clio.

Ta

Scaff

Well, which other french hatchback is more reliable?

I do not know of one, i understand they arent great on reliability but i would have said it was half decent!

Is any french car reliable?... thought not! lol

 

[niallz06]

Ohhhh sorry but you just made my wife hit me for laughing too much.

I spent two years working for Renault's customer service department, reliable is not a word I would use with the Clio.

Ta

Scaff

yeah so you probably heard of my parents then
we had to moan at customer service at Renault U.K for 6 months to get a faulty fuel filler cap for our (old gen) scenic. we now have a 1.9 fap 130 megane dci and its gonna cost us £600 for a new rear bumper
as for the clio, hopefully the new one will be a little better
i also say BRING BACK THE V6 YOU TIGHT SODS!

niallz06

 

[Poverty]

The DS??? Dont be stupid, the PSP is much better!

Ok it was a bad joke - I have respect for the Citroen DS, but i have voted for the Clio (maybe sounds a wierd decision but i stand with my decision).

The DS was a masterful on the enginuity side, very much a masterpeice, first time i ever seen or heard of it was on 'Top Gear' after what they rated the car i respect it, possibly the only french production car Jeremy Clarkson has ever liked!

He mentioned how nearly every modern day car has borrowed technology from the DS.

But.... I hate Citroen and their cars, IMO they are ugly unreliable and cheaply made (most of them that is).

I chose the clio as it is so popular in the UK, very nice to drive in my opinion (maybe not everyone will agree) but for the money you pay for one, you get a very very good car with loads of extra's and probably one of the most reliable French Hatchbacks.

Yeah I think its because of this, that I cant help but not like the DS, even though I want to.

Scaff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Type_300

 

[Danny]

The Franco-hate generated in this thread made me cry myself to sleep.

 

[exigeracer]

That aside you could use the same argument on the winners of both previous rounds (in fact you would have a stronger argument with both of them), the simple fact of the matter is that DS hearalded technology that is only now finding its way onto certain cars.

Explain me how the car is important or revolutionary if the technology is taking half a century to be used on cars. In that time, the car and its industry has lived aeons of change and progression, but through all of that, the latest thing they are using is 50-year old technology? If it were so important, wouldn't people want to have it right away, i.e. c.1960?

 

[Scaff]

Yeah I think its because of this, that I cant help but not like the DS, even though I want to.

Scaff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Type_300

The Type 300 was fitted with a self-leveling air suspension system at the rear only, not a Hydropneumatic suspension.

Nice try, but sorry this is not the same thing at all, the Merc system does allow self-leveling at the rear and provide a comfortable ride, but in terms of design its a long way from the full hydropneumatic suspension system developed by Citroen.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

Pretty much all of them, that said my parents Clio 1.5 hasn't broken down, they got it from new, they had one problem with it but that turned out to be that my dad put petrol in it and it was a diesel, they had to leave it at my house over night then empty the tank. But their Clio is awful to drive, the steering felt detached from the road, there was no feel in the pedals or anything. I'd put any Puegeot above any Clio anyday of the week.

 

[barryl85]

Explain me how the car is important or revolutionary if the technology is taking half a century to be used on cars. In that time, the car and its industry has lived aeons of change and progression, but through all of that, the latest thing they are using is 50-year old technology? If it were so important, wouldn't people want to have it right away, i.e. c.1960?

Maybe no one could produce it for little enough value, or it was copyright, or make it as reliable, i have no idea but why deny it, its true!

 

[Dave A]

Most of it was patented by Citoren so you coulsn't use it. whatever the reason for each idea, the bottom line is, ideas are still appearing on new cars that appeared on the DS way back then.

 

[barryl85]

Pretty much all of them, that said my parents Clio 1.5 hasn't broken down, they got it from new, they had one problem with it but that turned out to be that my dad put petrol in it and it was a diesel, they had to leave it at my house over night then empty the tank. But their Clio is awful to drive, the steering felt detached from the road, there was no feel in the pedals or anything. I'd put any Puegeot above any Clio anyday of the week.

Yep i can see it just now, live4speed driving a 1007 instead of a 182 cup!

Just kidding!

(You did say any Peugeot above any Clio)

 

[Scaff]

I'd put any Puegeot above any Clio anyday of the week.

Nooooooooooo

The vast majority of the Clio range may not be great (apart form the Renaultsport models), but bad as they may be they are not 206 bad.

One of the only cars to make the Clio's driving position feel good, I mean how far to the left did Pug want to offset the pedals, you practically have to ask teh passenger to brake for you!!!


LOL


Scaff

 

[G.T]

Stop the arguing!

Buy a Citroen C2 instead! What a great, funky thing it is.

 

[Danny]

The 206 had a recall about brakes cutting out of their own accord not so long ago...

 

[YSSMAN]

...Funny thing is, we won't be recieving any new French cars in the US any time soon...

Although I have herd that Peugeot is thinking about comming back, and I'm all for the 207 here in the US.

BTW: So High-Test and I are the only Americans who voted for the DS? Ha, I don't know why thats funny, but it is! I've only seen one (thats ONE) DS in my lifetime, and it was at a local car show. She was a looker, especially when sitting next to a Mustang GT and Pontiac Tempest....

 

[Dave A]

Nooooooooooo

The vast majority of the Clio range may not be great (apart form the Renaultsport models), but bad as they may be they are not 206 bad.

In fairness I've never sat in the driving seat of a 206, so I've never experienced that horrible pedal offset. But regarding the 106, 205 and the 306, which I've driven, I put all three of thoes well above the Clio.

(You did say any Peugeot above any Clio)

I wasn'tr being too literal when I said every Pug it was more a generalisation and also I'm talking relative. The 1007 isn't comparable to the 182 cup, but I would say that Reanultsport models are good.

 

[exigeracer]

Most of it was patented by Citoren so you coulsn't use it. whatever the reason for each idea, the bottom line is, ideas are still appearing on new cars that appeared on the DS way back then.

So the car had such a little impact on the industry, it actually hindered its development because of patented technology?

 

[Scaff]

So the car had such a little impact on the industry, it actually hindered its development because of patented technology?

No, Citreon were quite happy to licence teh technology and did to a number of different companies, including Rolls Royce, as I have already said.

Regards

Scaff

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

BTW: So High-Test and I are the only Americans who voted for the DS? Ha, I don't know why thats funny, but it is! I've only seen one (thats ONE) DS in my lifetime, and it was at a local car show. She was a looker, especially when sitting next to a Mustang GT and Pontiac Tempest....

I'll probably vote for it closer to when all the discussion is over.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Merc have been making a big deal about headlamps that follow you around a bend to aid visability, the DS had them 50 years ago.

Citroen DS, because of this. It just makes me laugh everytime I see the adverts.

The Franco-hate generated in this thread made me cry myself to sleep.

Your a frickin Englishman (and part Scot), you can't like the French

 

[Danny]

The french cars Evan.

And I have French blood, so it's inevitable.

 

[Scaff]

Explain me how the car is important or revolutionary if the technology is taking half a century to be used on cars. In that time, the car and its industry has lived aeons of change and progression, but through all of that, the latest thing they are using is 50-year old technology? If it were so important, wouldn't people want to have it right away, i.e. c.1960?

What people want and what a manufacaturer puts on a car are often two very different things, the corner leading headlamps are a very good example of this. Citroen could make them work as they were linked to the hydrophnumatic suspension system and easily powered by it, other manufacturers have since struggled to develop an electronic system that works as well.

The fact that Merc has only just re-introduced this idea (and has tried to claim it as new) proves the point.

In regard to your attempt to claim that Citroen patenting the hydrophnumatic system has stopped development, well that has a couple of problems with it as an argument.

The first is that development of the system has never stopped by Citroen and those companies that have licenced it, the current generation of the system is extremely advanced and I look forward to driving a C6 to feel it in action.

Secondly flagging Citroen as a bad guy here for patenting technology? Sorry but are you aware of the shear number of patents flying around the motor industry and who pays who for licences.

Regards

Scaff