VW Beetle is dead: 2019 Final Edition

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You used to see them alot on the roads here, but the last years they got replaced by cars like the Fiat 500 and Mini Cooper. Perhaps if they reproduce it in 30-40 years it might work out again because it stays an iconic car.
 
homeforsummer
My first thought would be pricing.

A basic Fiat 500 is <£12k at the moment (they were under £10k when it first arrived) and a MINI <£16k (I think they started at <£11k when the BMW MINI first arrived in 2001). A basic Beetle is nearly £18k, and while it was last of the trio to arrive so naturally looks a bit more on inflation alone, and while the Beetle has also always been slightly cheaper than the equivalent-engined Golf, it does sit in an awkward limbo between being cheeky and affordable and customers being able to buy a "proper" car instead for only slightly more money.
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Regarding the Beetle's price, the problem seemed to be that it was a car which appeared to be in a larger car segment and was priced as such yet wasn't. It's external dimensions suggested it was a resonably large C segment family car like Focus, Astra stuff then people would get inside it and be horrifed at where all the space had gone!

homeforsummer
I definitely think the 500's fairly low price helps it. £12k doesn't get you much these days, and most other stuff at that price range is pretty depressing. I'm a big fan of the VW Up/Skoda Citigo/SEAT Mii trio, but you can't deny that the Fiat has a whole lot more personality than those kind of cars, and it's pretty much cornered the market for "cute" - the MINI just looks goofy these days and the Beetle almost too sophisticated.

The 500's been going strong for 11 years now - they've made over 2 million from what I can see, so they've averaged about 180k+ a year. Small beans compared to some models, but not bad for a car with a fairly strong personality (compared to say a Fiesta, designed to safely appeal to most of the people most of the time).
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There no denying it has the most personality in it's segment but compared to the Beetle it think it just doesn't evoke as much of a feeling. Also the 500 mostly appeals (as a purchase) to the female market who loves the 'cute' whereas the Beetle, particularly the second gen new one, is much more of a gender neutral kind of car, it's almost TT esque in that respect.

homeforsummer
Part of me wishes they'd based the Beetle on a smaller platform though and gone head-to-head with the 500. I think it might have been really difficult to package had that been the case (crash test requirements etc mean you need to put certain hard points in certain places and that becomes tricky in a smaller car without affecting the shape) but it might have brought the price down a bit.
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It was a victim of being released too early, the whole boutique micro cars thing only started around the mid to late 00's and the Beetle came from the 90's mindset. I guess when the 2nd gen rolled around VW didn't want to put a huge amount of effort into what was basically an extensive facelift. They also likely didn't want to alienate the core potential buyers for it, previous new Beetle owners that had become accustomed to what it 'should be like' size wise.

If it was being developed brand new from today they would have very likely made it a smaller car.
 
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I'm not sure how they could've made it a smaller car when so much of it is outboard arches and a sloping roof, but still make it look like a Beetle. The passenger cell is already compromised because of the rake.
 
It didn't doesn't need to fee smaller. Take the 86 approach and make it more customisable. That heritage is what it needed. Put the engine out back, put the boot up front. Give it choice of cloth, denim or leather seats. Do the MINI and 500: "one instrument binnacle thing". Make a Super Beetle, with a detuned 718 4T.

I'd even market them(as sacrilegious as it sounds) Type I/Type II/Type III trim levels. Trademark "Flower Power", "Make love. Not war.". The marketing team could do so much with a different packaged Beetle.
 
VXR
I'm not sure how they could've made it a smaller car when so much of it is outboard arches and a sloping roof, but still make it look like a Beetle. The passenger cell is already compromised because of the rake.
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It would be Polo sized with the interior of a smart car :lol:
 
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Robin
Regarding the Beetle's price, the problem seemed to be that it was a car which appeared to be in a larger car segment and was priced as such yet wasn't. It's external dimensions suggested it was a resonably large C segment family car like Focus, Astra stuff then people would get inside it and be horrifed at where all the space had gone!
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To give people credit, I'm not sure many would look at a car of the Beetle's shape and expect it to have the same interior volume as a Golf, no more than they'd do likewise with a Scirocco or TT. But they might see a Golf next to it in a showroom, chicken out, and spend the couple of hundred quid extra to get a car with less personality but more practicality.
There no denying it has the most personality in it's segment but compared to the Beetle it think it just doesn't evoke as much of a feeling. Also the 500 mostly appeals (as a purchase) to the female market who loves the 'cute' whereas the Beetle, particularly the second gen new one, is much more of a gender neutral kind of car, it's almost TT esque in that respect.
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You're right about the 500 - I'd say that the number you see with a young woman driving is probably in the 90%-plus range. I've not seen enough Beetles on the road to really notice who drives them, but I bet it's pretty spec-dependent.

Assumed gender splits in cars don't really bother me - I'd not exactly go out and buy a 500 myself (Abarth excepted) but driving around in one wouldn't bother me. But the Beetle I'd absolutely be comfortable with. I'm not sure whether that's because it's more gender-neutral in terms of buyer split, or just because I think it's a really neat interpretation of a classic shape, and a classic shape I already like. I've (briefly) owned a classic Beetle, so I'd be happy to own a newer one too.
VXR
I'm not sure how they could've made it a smaller car when so much of it is outboard arches and a sloping roof, but still make it look like a Beetle. The passenger cell is already compromised because of the rake.
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Exactly what I said further up. To make it smaller but still look like a Beetle would be very difficult indeed.
05XR8
Put the engine out back, put the boot up front.
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I've seen this a lot over the last few days, and it just doesn't make any sense for anything other than wishy-washy nostalgic reasons.

The last two Beetles have been front-engined because that's the best way of making a car of that size and that price with those packaging requirements. Anyone who thinks the current Beetle is poorly packaged next to a Golf probably isn't very familiar with the classic one. The rear engine means there's effectively no storage space at the back and the back seat is further forwards than it needs to be, the front is taken up with the fuel tank and spare tyre (so the storage space is crap), and the large wheel wells mean the driving position is faintly ridiculous too.

If you try and change any of these factors to make them less terrible then you no longer have a car that looks like a Beetle... unless you wrap a more suitable front-wheel drive package in Beetle clothing, and accept some smaller limitations next to a two-box design like the Golf.

It was no doubt fabulously packaged by 1930s standards but replicating the same thing in 2018 in the same format would just be a recipe for making a massively compromised car. And a more expensive one, and one whose dynamics would probably be below that of the regular front-drive Beetle.

Weirdly, nobody seems to say the same thing about the Fiat 500, the classic version of which was also rear-engined and whose front-drive architecture is clearly no barrier to sales.
 
If VW really wanted to keep the Beetle alive, I personally think the best option would have been to keep it roughly the same size but make it 4/5door crossover. In essence, the next-gen Beetle could have been a direct competitor to the Fiat 500X. The profile could have been similar to the TT Offroad Concept:
Audi-TT-offroad-concept.jpg
 
FT-1
If VW really wanted to keep the Beetle alive, I personally think the best option would have been to keep it roughly the same size but make it 4/5door crossover. In essence, the next-gen Beetle could have been a direct competitor to the Fiat 500X. The profile could have been similar to the TT Offroad Concept:
Audi-TT-offroad-concept.jpg
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It might happen. But I think this is more on the lines of a Beetle replacement:
id_buzz_concept_7380-e1503177414880.jpg

Electric, more practical than the Beetle, and still a modern retro design of another iconic vehicle Volkswagen made in the past.
If this indeed does come in 2022, I'll be ordering one.
 
FT-1
If VW really wanted to keep the Beetle alive, I personally think the best option would have been to keep it roughly the same size but make it 4/5door crossover. In essence, the next-gen Beetle could have been a direct competitor to the Fiat 500X. The profile could have been similar to the TT Offroad Concept:
Audi-TT-offroad-concept.jpg
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Hmm. If that was to be its fate it's better to let the Beetle die...
 
homeforsummer
To give people credit, I'm not sure many would look at a car of the Beetle's shape and expect it to have the same interior free wshvolume as a Golf, no more than they'd do likewise with a Scirocco or TT. But they might see a Golf next to it in a showroom, chicken out, and spend the couple of hundred quid extra to get a car with less personality but more practicality.

You're right about the 500 - I'd say that the number you see with a young woman driving is probably in the 90%-plus range. I've not seen enough Beetles on the road to really notice who drives them, but I bet it's pretty spec-dependent.

Assumed gender splits in cars don't really bother me - I'd not exactly go out and buy a 500 myself (Abarth excepted) but driving around in one wouldn't bother me. But the Beetle I'd absolutely be comfortable with. I'm not sure whether that's because it's more gender-neutral in terms of buyer split, or just because I think it's a really neat interpretation of a classic shape, and a classic shape I already like. I've (briefly) owned a classic Beetle, so I'd be happy to own a newer one too.

Exactly what I said further up. To make it smaller but still look like a Beetle would be very difficult indeed.

I've seen this a lot over the last few days, and it just doesn't make any sense for anything other than wishy-washy nostalgic reasons.

The last two Beetles have been front-engined because that's the best way of making a car of that size and that price with those packaging requirements. Anyone who thinks the current Beetle is poorly packaged next to a Golf probably isn't very familiar with the classic one. The rear engine means there's effectively no storage space at the back and the back seat is further forwards than it needs to be, the front is taken up with the fuel tank and spare tyre (so the storage space is crap), and the large wheel wells mean the driving position is faintly ridiculous too.

If you try and change any of these factors to make them less terrible then you no longer have a car that looks like a Beetle... unless you wrap a more suitable front-wheel drive package in Beetle clothing, and accept some smaller limitations next to a two-box design like the Golf.

It was no doubt fabulously packaged by 1930s standards but replicating the same thing in 2018 in the same format would just be a recipe for making a massively compromised car. And a more expensive one, and one whose dynamics would probably be below that of the regular front-drive Beetle.

Weirdly, nobody seems to say the same thing about the Fiat 500, the classic version of which was also rear-engined and whose front-drive architecture is clearly no barrier to sales.
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No doubt VW+Audi platform sharing was cost effective for the New Beetle.
The FF 500, being as small as it is, works. I'm sure if it was a proper kei car, it could be packaged as RR. The AZ-1, being an example of a modern small closed Coupe. I bet the 500 could be packaged as RR, efficiently, under those constraints.

True, the current Beetle would be expensive as RR. Thing is, there are clever designers and engineers out there. If given a clear focus to make it RR, fun and inexpensive like the original, it could be done.
 
05XR8
No doubt VW+Audi platform sharing was cost effective for the New Beetle.
The FF 500, being as small as it is, works. I'm sure if it was a proper kei car, it could be packaged as RR. The AZ-1, being an example of a modern small closed Coupe. I bet the 500 could be packaged as RR, efficiently, under those constraints.

True, the current Beetle would be expensive as RR. Thing is, there are clever designers and engineers out there. If given a clear focus to make it RR, fun and inexpensive like the original, it could be done.
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The Beetle and 500 only work as they're competitively priced and they can only be priced that way because they share platforms with other cars. The 500 shares its FF platform with three other Fiat Group cars and the Ford KA, although i don't think that's produced any more. And the Beetle shares it's with about a million VWG vehicles. A custom RR platform for a single car makes no financial sense, especially when no one who buys them cares, or even acknowledges which wheels are driven or where the engine is situated - just as they didn't when the original Beetle and 500 were in production. Modern owners just want body-coloured dashboards and a vase.
 
TheCracker
The Beetle and 500 only work as they're competitively priced and they can only be priced that way because they share platforms with other cars. The 500 shares its FF platform with three other Fiat Group cars and the Ford KA, although i don't think that's produced any more. And the Beetle shares it's with about a million VWG vehicles. A custom RR platform for a single car makes no financial sense, especially when no one who buys them cares, or even acknowledges which wheels are driven or where the engine is situated - just as they didn't when the original Beetle and 500 were in production. Modern owners just want body-coloured dashboards and a vase.
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And Apple carplay. Customers stay away from cars that don't have that.
 
05XR8
No doubt VW+Audi platform sharing was cost effective for the New Beetle.
The FF 500, being as small as it is, works. I'm sure if it was a proper kei car, it could be packaged as RR. The AZ-1, being an example of a modern small closed Coupe. I bet the 500 could be packaged as RR, efficiently, under those constraints.
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Not if you want it to be the right shape, and particularly if you want it to be that small.

The AZ-1 is an odd example because a mid-engined two-door sports car with zero luggage space and a cockpit barely suitable for anyone over 5'8" has nothing like the packaging requirements of a four-seat small car that should in theory be able to accommodate a young family.

The only properly small rear-engined cars I can think of from the last few decades are the Smart Fortwo, the Forfour/Renault Twingo combo, and the Mitsubishi i, which was a kei car.

The i worked because it was effectively a rounded-off version of the boxy keis already on sale, essentially dedicating as much of its length as possible to passengers and cargo. A similar Beetle or 500 wouldn't work because you'd have to make the cabin unrealistically small to keep the proportions of the classic (hence even the C-segment outgoing Beetle has less space than a Golf, and the 4-metre long classic Beetle - 0.6m longer than a kei car - is still pretty pokey inside).

The Smart Fortwo works because it only needs to package two people, and Smart has cultivated itself a fairly distinctive style in a modern context so doesn't need to echo the past. The Forfour and Twingo only slightly work, because although they do technically squeeze four seats into a compact platform (3.6m), both rear seat space and luggage space are fairly poor. And those are modern designs, with as little front end as possible and a reasonably upright rear.

As @TheCracker says, a one-off rear-engined platform would just be too expensive given the potential market. Customers don't care either way (I'd be massively surprised if rear-engined rear-drive would be a selling point for the average customer - most BMW 1-series customers don't even know which wheels are driving the car) and manufacturers only care if it makes a profit. The VW Up was originally going to be rear-engined, but even though that is a custom platform it was more viable for VW to make it front-engined.

As for an electric Beetle, I believe there's an idea floating about, but VW is currently prioritising the electric microbus.
 
homeforsummer
Not if you want it to be the right shape, and particularly if you want it to be that small.

The AZ-1 is an odd example because a mid-engined two-door sports car with zero luggage space and a cockpit barely suitable for anyone over 5'8" has nothing like the packaging requirements of a four-seat small car that should in theory be able to accommodate a young family.

The only properly small rear-engined cars I can think of from the last few decades are the Smart Fortwo, the Forfour/Renault Twingo combo, and the Mitsubishi i, which was a kei car.

The i worked because it was effectively a rounded-off version of the boxy keis already on sale, essentially dedicating as much of its length as possible to passengers and cargo. A similar Beetle or 500 wouldn't work because you'd have to make the cabin unrealistically small to keep the proportions of the classic (hence even the C-segment outgoing Beetle has less space than a Golf, and the 4-metre long classic Beetle - 0.6m longer than a kei car - is still pretty pokey inside).

The Smart Fortwo works because it only needs to package two people, and Smart has cultivated itself a fairly distinctive style in a modern context so doesn't need to echo the past. The Forfour and Twingo only slightly work, because although they do technically squeeze four seats into a compact platform (3.6m), both rear seat space and luggage space are fairly poor. And those are modern designs, with as little front end as possible and a reasonably upright rear.

As @TheCracker says, a one-off rear-engined platform would just be too expensive given the potential market. Customers don't care either way (I'd be massively surprised if rear-engined rear-drive would be a selling point for the average customer - most BMW 1-series customers don't even know which wheels are driving the car) and manufacturers only care if it makes a profit. The VW Up was originally going to be rear-engined, but even though that is a custom platform it was more viable for VW to make it front-engined.

As for an electric Beetle, I believe there's an idea floating about, but VW is currently prioritising the electric microbus.
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Ever since this thread, I'm noticing Beetles on the street.
The potential market depends on who they're aiming for. For example, People like MX-5 owners or people like Peugeot owners?

One car that comes to mind: the XL1. I can't recall what chassis it used, but VW had to have lost money on that car. How much to develop it for it not to last? I'm don't know the figures. If VW are willing to spend that money on R&D, making a bespoke chassis. Modifying a Golf chassis to be MR or RR, could be done. Heck, MAYBE use the Cayman/718 chassis.

Trust, I understand what The Cracker and you mean. Too expensive? Relative to what? A company bigger than Mazda who have a bespoke chassis in the MX-5, I think VW could be clever to deliver such a niche car.

I guess VW didn't care too much about the packaging, as much as getting that iconic shape. Yeah, Beetle is probably dead forever, but I just wonder what it would look like, if it followed from how the 911 evolved to now.
 
05XR8
Too expensive? Relative to what?
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A front-wheel drive equivalent on a platform produced in literally the millions every year giving enormous economies of scale...

The XL1 can be written off as an engineering exercise - it was VW experimenting with plug-ins, experimenting with carbonfibre, experimenting with cameras rather than mirrors. And it sold each one for a six-figure sum.

I don't think the MX-5 comparison is that relevant either. For one, the Fiat/Abarth tie-up with this generation suggests Mazda is trying to share development costs wherever possible - understandable, as the global market for roadsters is small and getting smaller, even if the MX-5 makes up a large proportion of it. The format and layout of the MX-5 is much less malleable too, because it's been a relatively gradual evolution for the past quarter-century and buyers understand it.

How do you sell a rear-engined Beetle to typical Beetle customers who may not even be aware that the original whose design it apes was rear-engined? You certainly couldn't sell it on any kind of dynamic benefits - if a rear-engined 2019 Beetle felt any different from a front-engined one at all I'd be surprised (the aforementioned Twingo doesn't really feel rear-engined or rear-drive), but for a normal car for normal people, it'd probably even be a negative thing in terms of dynamics in extremis. Before you even get to the step backwards in terms of packaging.

I guess it depends on what function you'd like a Beetle revival to serve. If it was a glorified and expensive vanity project? Sure, it'd be possible. Literally anything else - inexpensive runaround, MINI/500/existing Beetle-style fashion item, volume family car? Almost certainly not possible.
 

The legend has lived a long life. Now is time for VW to pass the baton to the I.D lineup.
 
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I didn't know it was getting killed off....maybe they should have made it into a proper Dune buggy with some beefy off road tires, a lift and a massive rear spoiler...I still wouldn't buy one but I'm sure there would be a market for that ;)
 
That's too bad, definitely one of the most iconic cars of the 20th century and early 21st.


Jerome
 

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