VW may sell Bugatti & Lamborghini

[Dave A]

If after everything you made a profit, yes.

 

[McLaren]

If lambo do get sold, it will be to porsche. The Lambo SUV is being developed along side porsche, as it was porsche who actually did alot if not most of the development of that chassis. Also is has been rumoured that porsche wants audi and lamborghini.

Except for the fact that what you just said is completely untrue.

The SUV never made it into an actual building process, and Porsche had absolutley zero to do with it. Lamborghini executives announced fall 2006 that they would not go through with it or the Miura, and that plans for the Espada were going to be put on hold.

Like scaff has said, lambo would run into difficulties if it were to become independant, and there arent many manufacturers who could come along and swoop lambo up, with the japanese being the most financially capable of doing so.

Maybe not many, but Diamler certainly can since DiamlerChrysler owned them during the Diablo-era. And given that the car last 11 years, showed DiamlerChrysler had something for them.

But as the VAG boss did say lambo cant sustain themselves at the time being, and it will require the introduction of two more models before it can stand on its own two feet without assistance and favours.(and im sure he knows alot more than us on how lambos doing, as it is his job after all.)

Finding out who will live and who will die is not his job. What will require a long existance is the introduction of more profits, not, 2 more vehicles. Lamborghini spends enough as it is on developing 2 models, and the company's head pays a huge respect to Ferruccio by keeping the company from selling to many models. Lamborghini's specialty is making versions of the 1 vehicle. Primarily, the Murcielago has already entered 6 versions, 2 out of production, with the Gallardo at 5-6 which reinforces that fact.

I agree with harry though on Pagani.

A merge between the 2 could, actually provide some serious supercars. The Zonda Fs amazing capabilities could be transferred to the Murcielago, and Gallardo, Lamborghini would be able to bring more money to Pagani, the head of Pagani can go back to working with Lamborghini, and best of all, we can see Valentino becoming cheif Pagani driver as well.

 

[Poverty]

^^Lambo lied

 

[McLaren]

Is that the most intelligent response you can say?

I'll listen to the Lamborghini executive before you.
http://news.windingroad.com/auto-news/spied-return-of-the-rambo-lambo/
Article, Novemer.

Announcement to dead: Decemember.

 

[Poverty]

funny that because you wont listen to anything else those VAG executives say.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I think Poverty's point on Lamborghini's profit was that VAG haven't made a profit with them yet. The initial expense of purchasing Lamborghini and initial development costs haven't been recouped form the profits that Lamborghini are making.

^^Lambo lied

Please, give us a source, rumour thread or something to back that completely groundless post up.

 

[Poverty]

The Audi owned Italian sports car maker Lamborghini is building an SUV again.

This strange looking Porsche Cayenne is actually a mule for the coming SUV by Lamborghini. Because Porsche did most of the work when developing the VW Touareg and the recent Audi Q7, they also got the responsibility to do the development of the Lamborghini SUV.

Engine will probably be a version of the V10 known from the Gallardo and Audi S6 and S8, but also a 4.5 liter V8 from the Cayenne could be available. A diesel version is also in the plans, with the 5.9 litre Audi V12 TDI. This engine is a real masterpiece and has an enormous power output of 500 bhp and 1000 Nm of torque.

Between 1982 and 1993 Lamborghini built approximately 300 SUVs with the name LM002 , a monster powered by the V12 from the Lamborghini Countach with first 375 bhp and later on 455 bhp. At that time it was a very unusual decision from a sports car maker that was primarily known for high-performance grand tourers and super cars. But with the success that Porsche is having with the Cayenne, plans for a Lamborghini SUV are growing again.

Based on a modified Cayenne platform, the development costs will be kept low and with that raging bull on the hood Lamborghini is able to charge good money for a car that is in fact a Porsche Cayenne. Of course the design will stand out, and the sound of that V10 will get their owners the status in the asphalt jungle that they want .

This cars existence has been squashed by VAG a numerous amounts of time yet even so mules still running about after they said they were not making one.

These shots were taken roughly a month after the lambo executive said there would be no SUV.


and then heres some more recent info on the project.

Lamborghini Lagartijo
The modern-day LM-series: a monster 4x4-supercar crossover on a version of the Touareg/Cayenne/Q7 platform, with exclusive-to-Lamborghini V10 engine, apparently. Rumours tell of RX-8-style rear 'suicide' doors to maintain a coupe-like body outline.

 

[McLaren]

funny that because you wont listen to anything else those VAG executives say.

Just stop posting.

Provide sources from now on if you want a response because all you're doing is ass-kissing VAG, which is probably only due the fact that it owns Audi.


Please, show some sort of intelligence.

 

[McLaren]

The Audi owned Italian sports car maker Lamborghini is building an SUV again.

This strange looking Porsche Cayenne is actually a mule for the coming SUV by Lamborghini. Because Porsche did most of the work when developing the VW Touareg and the recent Audi Q7, they also got the responsibility to do the development of the Lamborghini SUV.

Engine will probably be a version of the V10 known from the Gallardo and Audi S6 and S8, but also a 4.5 liter V8 from the Cayenne could be available. A diesel version is also in the plans, with the 5.9 litre Audi V12 TDI. This engine is a real masterpiece and has an enormous power output of 500 bhp and 1000 Nm of torque.

Between 1982 and 1993 Lamborghini built approximately 300 SUVs with the name LM002 , a monster powered by the V12 from the Lamborghini Countach with first 375 bhp and later on 455 bhp. At that time it was a very unusual decision from a sports car maker that was primarily known for high-performance grand tourers and super cars. But with the success that Porsche is having with the Cayenne, plans for a Lamborghini SUV are growing again.

Based on a modified Cayenne platform, the development costs will be kept low and with that raging bull on the hood Lamborghini is able to charge good money for a car that is in fact a Porsche Cayenne. Of course the design will stand out, and the sound of that V10 will get their owners the status in the asphalt jungle that they want .

This cars existence has been squashed by VAG a numerous amounts of time yet even so mules still running about after they said they were not making one.

These shots were taken roughly a month after the lambo executive said there would be no SUV.


and then heres some more recent info on the project.

Article=November. The fact that the test mule does not prove anything to do with Lamborghini, despite what this article may think or even after the fact, Lamborghini executives said nothing would happen further proves it.

The ending statement also shows that executives were true to the word. They said, no suv again in December.

 

[Poverty]

Just stop posting.

Provide sources from now on if you want a response because all you're doing is ass-kissing VAG, which is probably only due the fact that it owns Audi.


Please, show some sort of intelligence.

I have done. I would have thought you knew as your sig says that you are a Lamborghini nut.

Article=November. The fact that the test mule does not prove anything to do with Lamborghini, despite what this article may think or even after the fact, Lamborghini executives said nothing would happen further proves it.

The ending statement also shows that executives were true to the word. They said, no suv again in December.

They have said no SUV quite alot, yet the mules kept appearing. Why would they continue to repeat themselves it the rumours were false? No other manufacturer does that, and its not how VAG traditionally handle thing.

As it goes the suv rumours persist and I think lambo are bluffing for obvious reasons. Only time shall tell, but lambo have got to be developing something, especially seeing as the two current models have a thing for spotaneous self combustion.

 

[McLaren]

I have done. I would have thought you knew as your sig says that you are a Lamborghini nut.

You posted that after my post. Sorry, I do not have the capability of seeing into the future.

But, please, do not attempt to bring my sig into this. You've shown a lot more love for Audi over anything else.

 

[YSSMAN]

It is pretty clear that nobody is getting anywhere here. As it stands now, it looks as though a partially Porsche-owned VAG may or may not include Lamborghini in it's future. If anything, Lamborghini is a brand with more than enough status in which they should be able to find a buyer (should VAG sell) to keep the company together, and hopefully bring it back to the way things should be.

IMO, I'd want Lamborghini to go back into Italian hands in some way, and that of course would lead you to hope for a Pagani/Lamborghini alliance of some kind, maybe something different. I think most people agree that it is very hard for most Germans to speak Italian when it comes to cars, and it is part of the reason why Lamborghini has lost some of it's edge in the marketplace. Hell, I think someone could even argue that the Ferrari today is edgier than the Lamborghini of the '80s and '90s...

If we would really want to get crazy, there are two ways that things could get bad for Lamborghini, assuming they are to be sold:

- They move under the wings of BMW, and stuff gets crazy. I'm sure that BMW isn't looking to acquire a brand such as this, however I really can't say that it is out of their character to do so. A Bavarian Lamborghini? It could happen, and the idea-exchange with the V12 programs would be interesting at best, and hell maybe BMW could bring back some of the craziness that used to be a part of Lamborghini's show-and-go...

- What about the Americans? Well, I can probably end it right there. We don't have the money...

- The worst thing possible would be some kind of purchase from a foreign (ie Asian) automaker looking to make a quick buck. We can count Toyota out right now, and probably Honda too, so that would leave the Chinese. With so much money floating around, it seems like a possibility, however I think most people are sane enough in Italy to keep it out of their hands forever.

 

[McLaren]

I have done. I would have thought you knew as your sig says that you are a Lamborghini nut.



They have said no SUV quite alot, yet the mules kept appearing. Why would they continue to repeat themselves it the rumours were false? No other manufacturer does that, and its not how VAG traditionally handle thing.

As it goes the suv rumours persist and I think lambo are bluffing for obvious reasons. Only time shall tell, but lambo have got to be developing something, especially seeing as the two current models have a thing for spotaneous self combustion.

They've said it twice. And only 1 mule has appeared with absolute no direct linkage.

Lamborghini and Porsche have nothing in common, nothing to do with each other. Why would Lamborghini use a Porsche Cayenne?

Only time shall tell, but lambo have got to be developing something, especially seeing as the two current models have a thing for spotaneous self combustion.

Source. I have seen no reports of spontaneous self combustion, and if you want to play that game, what about Audis automatically driving themselves? What about Corvette Z06 engines suddenly blowing?

Don't try to play the engine recall game, esp. when nothing is provided. I've only seen 1 person make a report on his Lamborghini engine, and that was 1 person, like the 2 people who reported Corvette engines blowing.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

And what exactly would stop Audi from buying out Lamborghini on their own? Yes, I can think of several reasons too (like Audi is a part of VAG, the R8 and so on), but do you think Audi still has something to get from Lambo? I think yes, they do.

As for Bugatti; the only reason VAG will get rid of them is because Porsche wants it. I actually can´t see why. They wouldn´t be competitors for the same market anyway. Bugatti should compete more with things like Rolls Royce, Bentley and Maybach (only with a sportier twist).

My 2 Cents

 

[Tornado]

There is no way in hell Porsche will force VAG to get rid of Bugatti. Bugatti was Piech's baby. Piech is essentially back at the helm with VAG.
Likewise for Lambo, which was also Ferdy's purchase back in '99.

 

[1X83Z]

Source.

Asking Poverty for a source *McLaren*, you crack me up

 

[Poverty]

Don't try to play the engine recall game, esp. when nothing is provided. I've only seen 1 person make a report on his Lamborghini engine, and that was 1 person, like the 2 people who reported Corvette engines blowing.

 

[Scaff]

Poverty, entertaining as those shots may be to some that don't actually back up your claim of problematic Lambo engine fires at all.

They simply show that these cars have been on fire, not the cause of the actual fire, for example one of them clearly shows the car on its roof which means that fire could well have been the result of an accident.

You were asked for a source to back up your claim and I'm sorry but for me this isn't it.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

Thats because the site is down!

But I dont know about you, but to me considering the amount of lambos that have caught on fire is a little more than just coincidence. The Murcielago also seems to be flawed in where it just suddenly veers of the road. Could explain why there are so many more lambo crashes compared to fezzas and porkas.

Hell even 3 lambo test drivers managed to crash somehow on straight roads, or near straight roads doing public road testing in which they shouldnt be running any extra risk of crashing at all.

 

[Scaff]

Thats because the site is down!

And the site in question is?

But I dont know about you, but to me considering the amount of lambos that have caught on fire is a little more than just coincidence. The Murcielago also seems to be flawed in where it just suddenly veers of the road. Could explain why there are so many more lambo crashes compared to fezzas and porkas.

Once again a picture of a car on fire or after a fire does not tell you why it occurred.

Using that logic the Enzo has a problem with its engine simply falling out...

...taken out of context the pictures alone mean nothing more that the Lambos have been in a fire, they do not in any way shape or form prove the cause. Yes some may be the result of engine fires (and this alone does not prove a manufacturing problem), but others, such as the upside down one do not.

I would also like to see some independent validation of Murcielago's suddenly veering off the road, or is that the site thats down? In which case I again ask what it is.

As for Lambo's being involved in less accidents that Porsche's or Ferrari's, well a great many factors are involved here, but I can certainly tell you have little awareness of '80s 911 accident records.

Hell even 3 lambo test drivers managed to crash somehow on straight roads, or near straight roads doing public road testing in which they shouldnt be running any extra risk of crashing at all.

An you know the risk of crashing was reduced because you were in the car, involved in the testing programme, are a test driver for Lamborghini?

No you don't know this at all, nor have you provided details, were these pre-production cars, test mules, etc. As I have worked in such cars and they are often a long way from the finished article, in most cases to such a degree that after testing they have to be destroyed to remove all chance of them entering the public market.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

Oh I know about the 80's 911 accident record but thats completly different.

Imagine you were cruising along in your beemer or merc and all of a sudden you veer off the road, thats what the lambo is supposedly doing, the 911's of the 80's were just raw and unforgiven ready to bite your head off as you give it some stick.

The lambo is half comfortable with 4wd, it shouldnt be throwing you off the road on a straight.

And the lambo test drivers that crashed were testing a unduisguised car, and the other two times they were driving to a media function, and the other time whilst a magazine was testing the car. The magazine testers said the car didnt feel right or save, and didnt want to push the car, so the lambo test driver did and he crashed it. Again thats more than just a coincidence.

Check this site out. http://www.lambounfall.de/indexe.html

Theres loads of crashed and burnt lambos but for some reason exotic wrecks wont let me view the murcielago section.

 

[McLaren]

You're an idiot.

You don't even know how those happened. Foruntely for you, I do.

The blue one does not show any damage on a fire. In fact, looks more like it's dirty and something spilled on it.

The 2nd one can not be proven that the engine combusted. It's far to damaged.

The third one was hit. The damage on the right side is impacted inwards.

The video, possibility, however, shows nothing. Does not show what caused it.

The flipped Murcielago shows nothing. That could easily have been an accident in which the driver lost control or was hit.

The next one was not due to engine combustion. The whole car itself being smashed pretty much shows that.

The last one is the easiest. The driver lost control, and that was even a report.

The reason they're all burned though is because Lamborghinis engines are highly fragile due to impact. If the engine or rear is hit hard enough, the engine does have a tendency to catch fire.

This does not mean the engines combust in the terms you mean. You mean, they just exploded. Many of these are easy to tell.


So, in the future, learn some facts, don't get pictures off the web, esp. when you can look at the pictures and get an idea of what happened, or worse yet, when a report comes and says what happened.


And where is your source for these 3? I only see 1. And don't try to say Valentino was in. You would have definately heard about that.

The website in question Scaff, is wreckedexotics, and even they don't always know the stories. They just put what they think many times when they get a photo in.

 

[McLaren]

Oh I know about the 80's 911 accident record but thats completly different.

Imagine you were cruising along in your beemer or merc and all of a sudden you veer off the road, thats what the lambo is supposedly doing, the 911's of the 80's were just raw and unforgiven ready to bite your head off as you give it some stick.

The lambo is half comfortable with 4wd, it shouldnt be throwing you off the road on a straight.

And the lambo test drivers that crashed were testing a unduisguised car, and the other two times they were driving to a media function, and the other time whilst a magazine was testing the car. The magazine testers said the car didnt feel right or save, and didnt want to push the car, so the lambo test driver did and he crashed it. Again thats more than just a coincidence.

Check this site out. http://www.lambounfall.de/indexe.html

Theres loads of crashed and burnt lambos but for some reason exotic wrecks wont let me view the murcielago section.

It's been known for years Lamborghini V12s are tire spinners. When the tire spins very fast in a stand still, the car, like others have a chance to go...sideways.

Again, sources. Only 1 is a source. The LP640. Where are these other 2?
And what does a driver pushing his car have to with engine combustion? That's what I call driver error.

The site, can not be used, if even the owner does not know how it happened. Why would I take responsibility for something when no one knows what caused it? The whole situation isn't told. He just says, "Suddenly, it turns left." How do we know another incident does not lead to that? How do we know the owner, like many, will usually cover up something to save themselves guilt?

You're getting off the subject of random engine combustions and getting into every Lamborghini wreck you see as a fault of the car.

My point stands. You're an idiot. You're not providing any sources, you're showing us things that have zero to do with engine combustions.

Hell, I'll be like you and blame Audi since Audi puts many of their own technology into current Lamborghinis.

Until you show a source, an exact source, not wreckedautos, I'll believe you.
But don't get off engine combustion, and don't start using a website where even the owner doesn't know what happened or what even says, "What caused it?" to prove your point.

 

[Scaff]

The website in question Scaff, is wreckedexotics, and even they don't always know the stories. They just put what they think many times when they get a photo in.

If its wrecked exotics then as far a credible source goes its not worth a damn, its little more than a tabloid for car crashes.

Oh I know about the 80's 911 accident record but thats completly different.

Imagine you were cruising along in your beemer or merc and all of a sudden you veer off the road, thats what the lambo is supposedly doing, the 911's of the 80's were just raw and unforgiven ready to bite your head off as you give it some stick.

And the LP640 and the higher end Lamborghini range have also been described as raw and unforgiving on the limit.

You also seem to have forgotten that similar "the car just lost control" stroies were leveled at '80's Porsche's, the truth of the matter was it was more an issue of driver error than the cars. However people are very reluctant to admit that, particularly if a rather large insurance claim is involved.

I worked customer service for Renault UK and we had at least one 'engine fire' claim a week, all of which were dealt with in combination with insurance investigators. I can only recall two which were a result of manufacturing issues and we had to assist with the costs on. Just because someone claims a car just caught fire or suddenly veered off the road does not make it true. You need to remember that yo are a great defender of Audi when they had an issue of this nature, but quite happy to throw Lamborghini straight the wolves. Do they upset the gentle VAG balance? Or is it just Audi's that get that treatment.

The lambo is half comfortable with 4wd, it shouldnt be throwing you off the road on a straight.

And you have direct experience of the first and a verifiable source for the second?

And the lambo test drivers that crashed were testing a unduisguised car, and the other two times they were driving to a media function, and the other time whilst a magazine was testing the car. The magazine testers said the car didnt feel right or save, and didnt want to push the car, so the lambo test driver did and he crashed it. Again thats more than just a coincidence.

All of which could have involved pre-production cars, I would also be interested in which magazine it was and if possible details of the article in question (and not just you saying "It said".....

Check this site out. http://www.lambounfall.de/indexe.html

Theres loads of crashed and burnt lambos but for some reason exotic wrecks wont let me view the murcielago section.

That site, well it would appear that someone has an axe to grid with Lambo, but lets be honest half an hour on the web and you could put something like that together for any manufacturer. I don't see any proof from a range of credible sources about either the fires or veering off the road. Given the number of automotive sites/mags I read I would have thought it would have cropped up at least once. Nor does this appear to be an issue with either the UK or American government bodies (you see I have checked).

As for wrecked exotics, as I said before, hardly a great source of 100% accurate data.

To be honest Poverty you have a massive track record here at GT Planet of making claims that you can't then back up with any sort of credible and independent sources, and please do not think this has gone unnoticed.


Scaff

 

[1X83Z]

Poverty is so on point. Brilliant guy

 

[Poverty]

3 lambo test drivers crashed murcielagos on public roads.

Show me where 3 ferrari test drivers have crashed the same (im talking in modern times here) model ferrari, or porsche etc.

Sorry dont know about you guys but I have lost faith in lamborghinis. If I ever have a chance to go in a ride with a muercielago I will think twice, because the crash per model made ratio is quite frankly far too high.

And *mclaren* you are naive to think that "something spilled" onto that blue murcielago. You can clearly see that flames poured out of the back of that exhaust. And also, isnt it a bit funny that lamboghinis have a much higher tendancy to break out into flames after a crash. Again try and show me some porsches and ferrari's which burn after a crash on a similiar scale.

I know audi wanted the lambo's to still have some lambo DNA and character, but taking after the miura probably wasnt the smartest of moves.

Scaff - what more credible info do you need other than 20 different pics of murcielagos crashed? And those are just the ones that got recorded.

 

[Dave A]

3 lambo test drivers crashed murcielagos on public roads.

So, three pre-production cars were crashed either due to driver error or the pre-production car having a fault.

Sorry dont know about you guys but I have lost faith in lamborghinis. If I ever have a chance to go in a ride with a muercielago I will think twice, because the crash per model made ratio is quite frankly far too high.

Not that many TVR's are crashed yet TVR's are a bitch to drive in the wet and are not the most sound cars on the planet reliability wise. But since there are probably less crashed TVR Tuscans than there are Honda civics on a cashes to models made ratio, the Tuscan must be a better built car. Right.

And *mclaren* you are naive to think that "something spilled" onto that blue murcielago. You can clearly see that flames poured out of the back of that exhaust. And also, isnt it a bit funny that lamboghinis have a much higher tendancy to break out into flames after a crash. Again try and show me some porsches and ferrari's which burn after a crash on a similiar scale.

Now your argument has changed, now Lamborghini's arn't spontaneously combusting, instead they are setting alight after a heavy crash, a possible reason for this has already been given.

I know audi wanted the lambo's to still have some lambo DNA and character, but taking after the miura probably wasnt the smartest of moves.

The cuyrrent Lambos do not take after the Muira in any way other than by being Lamborghinis.

Scaff - what more credible info do you need other than 20 different pics of murcielagos crashed? And those are just the ones that got recorded.

If you want I'll find 20 pictures of crashed Audi S4's and then I've proven that they're shokingly bad cars to drive. The question is WHY they crashed. If they are all driver error or because of someone else hitting them then it has nothing to do with Lamborghini build quality. Personally I've never heared any reviews or long term professional opinions that display Lamborghinis in a bad light in thoes ways.

 

[McLaren]

3 lambo test drivers crashed murcielagos on public roads.

Show me where 3 ferrari test drivers have crashed the same (im talking in modern times here) model ferrari, or porsche etc.

Show me where these 3 Lamborghini test drivers have.

Sorry dont know about you guys but I have lost faith in lamborghinis. If I ever have a chance to go in a ride with a muercielago I will think twice, because the crash per model made ratio is quite frankly far too high.

Show a source on this as well.

And *mclaren* you are naive to think that "something spilled" onto that blue murcielago. You can clearly see that flames poured out of the back of that exhaust. And also, isnt it a bit funny that lamboghinis have a much higher tendancy to break out into flames after a crash. Again try and show me some porsches and ferrari's which burn after a crash on a similiar scale.

I said it looked like something spilled on it because I didn't know fire leaves white stains.

I already said the engines are fragile to crashing. As for Porsches and Ferraris, I'll do what you did, and just post pictures from WreckedExotics because you apparently think that site proves everything.

I know audi wanted the lambo's to still have some lambo DNA and character, but taking after the miura probably wasnt the smartest of moves.

What does that Miura have to do with this? The Miura never had combustion problems, in fact, it was a pretty perfect car to begin with.

Scaff - what more credible info do you need other than 20 different pics of murcielagos crashed? And those are just the ones that got recorded.

What he wants is sources that tell the cars crashed because of engine combustion, not just random wrecked pictures. Even you should have figured that out.

 

[Dave A]

What does that Miura have to do with this? The Miura never had combustion problems, in fact, it was a pretty perfect car to begin with.

Not quite, the Muira generated a lot of lift at high speed at the front, so as our speed got faster the weight over the front wheels reduced and the steering dissapeared.

 

[Poverty]

So, three pre-production cars were crashed either due to driver error or the pre-production car having a fault.

Not that many TVR's are crashed yet TVR's are a bitch to drive in the wet and are not the most sound cars on the planet reliability wise. But since there are probably less crashed TVR Tuscans than there are Honda civics on a cashes to models made ratio, the Tuscan must be a better built car. Right.

Now your argument has changed, now Lamborghini's arn't spontaneously combusting, instead they are setting alight after a heavy crash, a possible reason for this has already been given.

The cuyrrent Lambos do not take after the Muira in any way other than by being Lamborghinis.

If you want I'll find 20 pictures of crashed Audi S4's and then I've proven that they're shokingly bad cars to drive. The question is WHY they crashed. If they are all driver error or because of someone else hitting them then it has nothing to do with Lamborghini build quality. Personally I've never heared any reviews or long term professional opinions that display Lamborghinis in a bad light in thoes ways.

1. Only one of the cars were pre production.
2. In comparative ratio there are probably more crashed tuscans if we take the UK as a field example.
3. I havent changed my argument, I was adding on to it, sayin they had a connection.
4.I was being humurous
5. 20 crashed S4's is different to 20 crashed lambo's as there are a hell of alot more S4's out there. I bet you couldnt find 20 crashed b6-b7 S4's though.