Wacky New Designs: Good or Bad?

[Joey D]

This is an example of GM not changing a design...

 

[ExigeEvan]

The ford UK lineup is aging a bit although the focus is still very nice.

Well the new Focus and Fiesta only came out mid 2005, I think.

The Mondeo is aged, the ka is forever unchanged but I think there's a new transit coming.

 

[Dave A]

While I'm not a huge fan of all new design, for example the Renault Megane, I do prefer new innovative design over tried and tested, all the time. I mean it's okay to re0use a design a couple of times, but when it's over, and over agai, no. Going onto this whole retro thing that's coming in, sure some of the retro designs are fantastic (pooints at new Camero) but other's just make me think, what's the point. It's like corporate faces on cars, why? Are they honsestly worried that I won't be able to tell that's an Audi if it looks a bit different from the front. Design each car as it's own car, whatever angle of design suits that car most, go for it. If it happens to be a retro conceptual design that looks best, design it retro, but don't go for a retro design for the sake of it. I'm a fan of designers pushing what's normal, that's why even though I don't like the look's of the Megane, I won't knock it. Much. But at least it's tried something different. The only problem is, if a big car tries to look different and fails, theres a lot of cash involved, and that's why the bigger companies tend to make striking concepts, but end up playing it safe in general.

 

[eliseracer]

That would be GMT-800...I'm talking GMT-900. They are different, not by much but they are different. A Tahoe door wouldn't fit on an Escalade, also it wouldn't look right. They are based on the same platform, have the some of the same engines, have the some of the same drivetrains, etc. But on the out side the sheet metal is different.

I have barely seen any pictures of the 900 platform to make any comments. They are SUVs with tasteless styling, so I don't even bother.

A fine example is the FX45. That SUV looks like just dandy, almost sportcar-ish. But I'm not an SUV guy at all. If I would have all of the money in world to buy cars, an SUV wouldn't even make the top 15 cars...

 

[Joey D]

I have barely seen any pictures of the 900 platform to make any comments. They are SUVs with tasteless styling, so I don't even bother.

Stupid comment.

I haven't seen them but they are tasteless....How do you know they are tasteless? And somehow I doubt they are since every auto mag has hailed them as awesome SUV's.

 

[YSSMAN]

I assume you are European eliseracer? Why even concern yourself with American SUVs when you really have no reason to ever complain about them? Europeans will never understand the purpose of a full-sized SUV or pickup truck because Europe is too damn small for anyone to need one. People in America buy SUVs because we get three feet of snow in one night, we need to pull two horses, or have 7-person familes that would only fit in a full sized SUV.

That said, I would concede to the fact that the GMT-800 and GMT-900 SUVs do look somewhat similar, but that is largely because they share many parts between them. Escalade parts (in both Gen I and Gen II forms) on the GMT-800 platform were easily interchangeable with Tahoe and Yukon parts because they were all essentially the same trucks. Although the pannels shared similar dimensions and overall designs, they were cast differently to match the "Art and Science" theme.

Fast forward to the GMT-900 platform, things have changed...but only just a bit. Pannels are truck-specific, and really only beneath the sheetmetal do they share any parts. The platforms will be the same, and many of the baisic mechanical parts will be similar. However, interiors will be drasticly different (before GMT-800s were nearly identical), and the engine/trans choises will vary greatly between Chevrolet, GMC, and Cadillac... Caddy being the first to use the 6.2L 400Hp V8 and 6-speed 6L80E Automatic transmission.

But I really dont understand your criticisms of the design eliseracer... The Tahoe's design is fresh and modern (as compared to the GMT-800 Tahoe which dates back to 1999), and draws heavily on the new Chevrolet corporate face. The hood is raised up to have somewhat of the classic "cowl induction" look, and presumably "slopes down" as to contribute to better visability outward. The headlights are attractive (more so than the Cadillac and GMC variants), espically with the smoked-out look.

I dont see what the problem is, and it may be because I am an American and I have a use for our Chevrolet Avalanche SUV... We tow a boat, haul around the rest of the 6-person family, carry wood in the bed, use the back for tailgate parties, and use the "midgate" system constantly to carry extra plywood or drywall when doing some constuction work.

Exactly the same as this, but with the optional chrome running boards...

 

[niky]

@eliseracer: I called the Gallardo minimalist as a design concept, from the outside. The inside is another matter entirely.

 

[Wolfe]

People in America buy SUVs because we get three feet of snow in one night, we need to pull two horses, or have 7-person familes that would only fit in a full sized SUV.

No. We don't.

I'm willing to bet that as high as 75% of the SUV market did not buy an SUV for the utility. They might think they did, (salesman: "Look at all this space for carrying cargo!" customer: "Hey, that could come in handy!") but they didn't.

In most places that get snow, it can be dispatched easily by an AWD car, and in many cases, 2WD will work just fine. If you live somewhere where tons of deep snowfall is common and you need the ground clearance to avoid getting stuck, fine. But that's hardly the majority of the SUV market.

SUVs pale in comparison to trucks when it comes to doing work, even if it's a large, body-on-frame SUV. Folding the seat down and loading things into the back of an SUV is much more of a pain than tossing something into the back of a pickup. That said, nearly everything that an SUV is used for, as far as carrying things in the back, can be done with a station-wagon, and the fading stigma of being a station-wagon driver no longer compares to the "gas guzzler" image you get with an SUV. The only work an SUV excels at is pulling a boat or trailer while simultaneously carrying several passengers. But, the percentage of SUV owners who tow boats or trailers is quite low.

If someone buys an SUV for the ability to carry several passengers at once, they're obviously afraid of driving a minivan or wagon, or are too stupid to have considered those two as options.

I assume you are European eliseracer? Why even concern yourself with American SUVs when you really have no reason to ever complain about them? Europeans will never understand the purpose of a full-sized SUV or pickup truck because Europe is too damn small for anyone to need one.

Pull your head out of your ass. Europe gets plenty of snow. Europe has boats. Europe has horses. Europe has more than enough people to fit seven into a single vehicle.

Europe, incidentally, also has more SUVs than they need, but there aren't nearly as many of them as in the usa, and they're more of the car-based variety.

Europe is very familiar with all of the needs you described, and for the most part has found more efficient ways of dealing with them. End of story.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I assume you are European eliseracer? Why even concern yourself with American SUVs when you really have no reason to ever complain about them? Europeans will never understand the purpose of a full-sized SUV or pickup truck because Europe is too damn small for anyone to need one. People in America buy SUVs because we get three feet of snow in one night, we need to pull two horses, or have 7-person familes that would only fit in a full sized SUV.

I have a neigbour, he has a boat. It's medium in size, by no means a little 2 man thing. To tow it they use a volvo or sometimes a short wheelbase defender 90. They own neither. And the defender is actually taken off road, I've seen some amazing pictures of it in the past.

I'm part of a family of 6. We have a Toyota Previa, just so you know, that has 8 seats. We tow a touring caravan with it occasionly. We've used the Previa as a 'van' countless times.

Now, go ask all the Norwegian, Finnish and Swedish members what they or their parents drive. How many do you think drive big 4x4s?

And as far as I know, eliseracer is North American.

 

[Poverty]

My friend has a family of seven. They have a renault espace and a ford fiesta.

My other school friend has a speedboat. They tow it using a BMW 5 series touring.

And once you go to the netherlands nearly everyone there has a caravan but they dont have SUV's to pull it and they get quite alot more snow than us brits. Actually once you get out of england and into the rest of europe you will find alot more people with caravans and the need to tow things. Us brits dont really have the need for such things as we will just pay some geezer to cme round and tow or bring us whatever we havent got the means of carrying in our vehicles.

Also Ken livingstone is looking to double congestion charge for SUV's.

I assume you are European eliseracer? Why even concern yourself with American SUVs when you really have no reason to ever complain about them?

I really despise comments like this. It gives out an attitude that you know best and dont care about others opinions.

 

[Joey D]

No. We don't.

In Michigan it's very possible to get a ton of snow in one night.

I really despise comments like this. It gives out an attitude that you know best and dont care about others opinions.

That's lame because you do the same thing.

 

[Poverty]

That's lame because you do the same thing.

Quote me. I think your getting me mixed up with you as you do it ever so often along with calling people idiots and all other types of names. Quote me of doing that and I will make you a Z06 shrine.

 

[Joey D]

Quote me. I think your getting me mixed up with you as you do it ever so often along with calling people idiots and all other types of names. Quote me of doing that and I will make you a Z06 shrine.

Go to the Ward's Top Engines thread and look at your comments about Car and Driver...silly me you know more then Car and Driver.

 

[Poverty]

Yeahhhh...

 

[YSSMAN]

I would agree that many people in the US dont use SUVs as they are intended, thats a given. But there are also a lot of people who do, my family included. Thats why weve owned Tahoes, Suburbans, Avanlances, etc. We have also had vans in the past, but they havent been able to do as much because the space is largely taken up by the seats that reside on the inside. They can obviously be removed (with much difficulty), but you begin to take down the number of seats available. Atleast with the Avalanche, you can seat six comfortably and still have a 6ft bed in the back.

...I'm fine with having my head in my ass and being a dominant American. Why? I love to fit that sterotype... I have a great appreciation for Europe and many of the things that come from it, and I take great pride in my Dutch, German, Polish, and English heritage. But when I have Europeans yelling at me for buying SUVs because they dont understand the use of one, it turns on my "F-off" switch that many Americans have inside of their heads. It may be people like me and President GWB that cause problems for this country, but I dont mind.

...That said, I can also see the use of an Audi or Mercedes stationwagon in many situations, but here in the US, the stationwagon is still taboo. So many of our parents grew up riding around in Vista Cruisers and Country Squires, they vowed never to own one. My generation has taken to the idea of a wagon, and I would gladly drive an AWD Passat instead of my Father's Avalanche, there is no question in that. But a Passat isnt going to haul a 32ft boat or a 5th wheel trailer. Sure, it can carry five or six somewhat comfortably and get through the snow with confidence... But the extra ground clearence with the Avalanche with the big snow days we get in Western Michigan helps a lot.

 

[eliseracer]

I assume you are European eliseracer? Why even concern yourself with American SUVs when you really have no reason to ever complain about them? Europeans will never understand the purpose of a full-sized SUV or pickup truck because Europe is too damn small for anyone to need one. People in America buy SUVs because we get three feet of snow in one night, we need to pull two horses, or have 7-person familes that would only fit in a full sized SUV.

This has to be the single biggest BS post I have ever read in the history of the internet.

First off, I live in Canada, which covers the snow portion of things, as we get more snow than America. I am concerned about your American SUVs because we sometimes buy them, here in Canada. We don't need or buy SUVs as much as Americans do, yet we have to deal with more snow. How odd. I am also betting we that the boat per capita rate is also similar between the countries, and we consume roughly the same amount of groceries.

Don't make such stupid assumptions, and don't follow them up with ignorant comments about others.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I live in America, damnit! Its called the First Amendment! Yee Haw!!!

Sure, you Canucks are just like Americans...Only you go without the attitude and then there is Quebec, but we wont talk about Quebec.

People who get pissed off about SUVs when the know very little about them is one of my biggest automotive nit-picks. You had even said yourself Eliseracer that you knew very little about the GMT900s and yet you wrote them off as being more gas-guzzling American SUV garbage. I may be among a dying breed of SUV lovers, but atleast I am in good company in most situations.

There is still money to be had in the market, and I applaud GM for going after it. With DCX and Ford all but abandoning the segment, it pretty much leaves GM as the sole property in the segment, and it should elevate the marketshare of the Tahoe, Yukon, and Escalade to record levels. Being that it is the SUV market that does make GM the most money, they have the most to gain in this situation.

The same can be said when the new GMT900-based pickups debut at Chicago or New York later this year. GM has trailed Ford for many years with the F150, but given the new fuel economy gains and fresh designs that are sure to come with the new Silverado and Sierra, it is sure to boost sales. Will it be enough to topple the F150 from the top slot? Most certainly not, but it will come damn close.

If youve got a problem with me overgeneralising automotive markets, so be it. But I suppose thats what makes automotive journalists like Jeremy Clarkson and Brock Yates stand out from the rest of the "Well that car has nice seats" crowd. They arent afraid of calling out Europeans for being tech-crazy egoheads, or calling Americans stupid low-tech rednecks. We are what we are, and neither side of the Atlantic will ever completely understand the other.

 

[eliseracer]

Sure, you Canucks are just like Americans...Only you go without the attitude and then there is Quebec, but we wont talk about Quebec.

I read this and then immediately stopped reading all of your post.

Hey! Guess where I live! Quebec! Not only are you losing a great deal of your own dignity, but you also should realise that there are other members on this board that might (and have) take insult on your lack of maturity and clear disrespect for anyone who isn't you.

Once again, you make instant assumption, and then go off insulting other people and cultures. Like I said, I didn't read any single letter passed that, because I'm sure it's just more complete selfish ignorance.

Most people will insult a car, but they won't go off insulting other cultures and people. Not you, you'll go off saying what you want, and not care for any reason at all. Grab a hold of yourself. I don't care what car you own, how many kids you have, how much money you make, you act like a 11 year old. Grow up.

 

[YSSMAN]

So do people from Quebec get pissed off when Conan O'Brian and Jay Leno make fun of the province? What about all the times the Daily Show makes fun of the "wannabe France" state?

...If I need to grow up, you need to get a sense of humor...

 

[eliseracer]

So do people from Quebec get pissed off when Conan O'Brian and Jay Leno make fun of the province? What about all the times the Daily Show makes fun of the "wannabe France" state?

...If I need to grow up, you need to get a sense of humor...

They are comedians. Fortunately, you aren't.

 

[niky]

Go to the Ward's Top Engines thread and look at your comments about Car and Driver...silly me you know more then Car and Driver.

Oh, yeah... remember what happened to that Car And Driver thread? Don't encourage him, Blazin.

To YSSMAN and eliseracer, hey guys... cool it... we are getting so far off-topic, it's not funny anymore. If you're going to keep on arguing about the merits of SUVs and trucks, take it to another thread. I'm surprised this hasn't been reported and closed yet.

Any more "SUV's suck" or "Dumbass Bohemian" comments, and it will be. Take it to another thread or keep it on the PMs.

The topic is car design. Let's stick to that, okay? 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

Thank god you came in here, I wassent sure if I was going to be able to get him to drop it...

Anyway... Does anyone else have a problem with the corporate face idea that has scattered around the auto industry? I cant say I completely hate the idea as a whole, but when every model has to look somewhat alike or share some kind of common trait, it makes the lineups look boring...

+1 for old school styling... Atleast the cars looked different in 1966...

 

[Sage]

It really depends on the company for me. Some car companies have done a swell job with their styling lately, some have really gone downhill.

• The Bad
• Audi – shame on them for following BMW, and for the vacuum grilles
• BMW – you all know why
• Nissan – for a while I was impressed with them (namely, the redesign of the Altima), but they’ve been slipping lately, especially when they started to put that dumb bucktooth thing on every car
• Saturn – let’s hope things look rosier for them once the Sky and Opel-based cars start comin’
• Volkswagon – see Audi (have you ever seen a new GTI from afar? The black thingie makes it look like they completely forgot to put in the middle panel above the bumper)

• The Good
• Acura – can’t say enough about the Acura folks and how insanely great their current lineup looks
• Cadillac – good on them for going from frumpy –> gorgeous
• Ford – Mustang, Fusion, upcoming Edge… similar route to Cadillac
• Infiniti – the G35 coupe is one of, if not the most beautiful car coming from Japan right now
• Mazda – cohesive, sporty designs
• Mercedes-Benz – can’t lose in a CLK or E-class
• Mini –
• Volvo – a brilliant lineup; cohesive, strong brand identification, yet each car looks balanced and designed from scratch

• Hmmm…
• Chevrolet – every car looks much better now, but a lot of them look kind of brittle somehow
• Dodge – love the Magnum and Charger, the trucks and SUVs look a bit bloaty, the Caliber signals trouble (i.e., excess brand identification)
• Honda – Okay with the Civic coupe, not okay with the Civic sedan, Accord is frumpy, S2000 and Insight are still great lookers, hate the new 2-bar grilles slapped on all the SUVs
• Hyundai/Kia – grab bags
• Lexus – the jury’s still debating about this whole “L-Finesse” stuff
• Mistubishi – Japanese grab bag
• Pontiac – American grab bag
• Saab – are they Swedish anymore?
• Subaru – current-gen Legacy and Outback are absolutely gorgeous, whole lineup is in impending danger due to the new grille
• Toyota – random shapes flying out lately

 

[Wolfe]

...I live in America, damnit! Its called the First Amendment! Yee Haw!!!

The First Amendment means the goverment can't control what you say. Other people/organizations still can. I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised if, upon calling Jordan a "****ing ***-faced ****-licker," you were banned from this forum.

Anyway, as for the topic of car design --

America -- C+ Homeruns are pretty rare, and travesties are common, but they're at least giving it some effort. GM does well sometimes, and really really horribly other times. Ford has been doing pretty well, actually -- either great, or just boring. DC has decided to transform most of their lineup into a bunch of ugly, angry boars, it seems. Stand-outs include the Mustang, Camaro concept, Challenger, Cobalt, Saturn Sky, most of the Cadillacs. The worst ones include the "macho" minivan-thing GM has made and rebadged a zillion times, the Charger, the Caliber, the Fivehundred, the Solstice (the more I look at it the more I think it's ugly), and most of the models that haven't been updated within the last couple of years..

Japan -- D What the hell are they thinking? Other than the Z, Nissan has been churning out pile after pile of half-melted chunks of plastic. Toyota has decided that lumpy and/or completely boring is the way to go with their newest models, and Lexus models are starting to look like plastic-surgery gone wrong, with horrible proportions, curves, flat surfaces, and edges used in bad places. Mitsubishi nailed the new Eclipse pretty well, but fails to do anything else spectacular. Mazda has turned every car and SUV into a different interpretation of the RX-8, a not-so-pretty car to start with. Honda is the one shining light among the others, and saves the country from an F -- they've really been on the ball, lately. Stand-outs include the new Civic, pretty much any Acura, the 350Z, and the Eclipse. The worst ones include the next-gen Camry, any Infiniti other than the G35, any Mazda, most Nissans, and pretty much any non-Eclipse Mitsubishi.

Germany -- A- Despite what everyone says, most of the BMW's aren't bad at all -- the Z4, new 3er, new 5er, and 6er are all great. The X-series and 1-series, not so much. Audi has given all of their cars that gaping maw, yet it somehow makes their cars more boring-looking in my eyes. Maybe it's because the cars are yawning. VW's A5 Golf and Jetta are neat, not very original, but neat nonetheless. VW's models in general don't suffer from the grille as much as the Audis do. Mercedes has been doing good lately -- their cars are more interesting to look at now, although the shapes can go overboard at times. Porsche hasn't done much with their look, and despite the good looks of a 997 Carrera, the 997 Turbo is looking not-so-good. The Cayenne is an ugly fish. The Cayman is great. Opel's cars look excellent, for the most part. Too bad they're unreliable and crappy to drive, for the most part. Stand-outs include the new 3er, the Z4 Coupe, the 6er, the Passat, the CLS-class, the 997 Carrera, the Cayman, Carrera GT, and the Astra hatchback. The worst ones include the gaping-maw A4 and A6, the A3, the new TT concept, the Cayenne, and the SLR McLaren (a friend of mine once remarked that it looked phallic, and ever since then, I've agreed with him ).

Italy -- B Lamborghini is lookin' good, Pagani is lookin' even better. Alfa is so-so. Fiat is blah. Ferrari has been sputtering. Stand-outs include the Murcielago and Gallardo, Zonda, and F430. The worst ones include the 599, Superamerica, and Scaglietti.

Britain -- C- Points deducted for plagiarism/unoriginality (Aston Martin, new Jaguar XK) and WTF-ness (TVR, particularly the Sagaris). British Ford, like the american Ford, is hit-or-boring. Lotus used to know what they were doing, but with the Europa I'm not so sure. Stand-outs include the current Elise. The worst ones include the new Jag XK, and probably a few Fords that I can't think of right now.

France -- B- Extra points for originality, but it doesn't always work. Citroen has been quirky and making it work, almost. Peugeot is hit-or-miss. Renault is so-so. Stand-outs include...well, I can't really think of any. The worst ones include...hmm...nothing, really.

China -- Expelled Plagiarism is not permitted.

Korea -- B- Has made some strides recently. The new Sonata is nice, old-school Audi-ish.

 

[eliseracer]

Whoa. I wouldn't grade Korea anything higher than a D if you expelled China. While Hyundai comes out with some fairly creative concepts, what reaches the roads is always revolting.

 

[McLaren]

No, they deserve it.

They churn out the Protomotors Spirra which is a nice little sports car.

 

[Joey D]

You grade Japan a D while Korea gets a B and America gets a C...while Germany gets an A? What are you nuts? While I don't really like Japanese cars I must say a lot of them are designed fairly well.

All Korea does is steal from Japan.

 

[niky]

Actually, if we take Japan by statistics, considering Toyota and Honda make up most of their volume, I'd give them a C. Mazda gets an A from me, for finding a corporate look that actually translates well across the range. The RX8 actually served as a herald for their new design focus. Nissan found it when they started changing models, but they took a left turn in 2003 and it's been downhill since then. Honda has only two or three bright spots in their line-up design wise. Mitsubishi only has the Eclipse.

Korea may get a B, but you ought to consider that Hyundai relies heavily on Pininfarina for their designs.

 

[Poverty]

Germany

BMW (B-) is slipping with the 3 series. It was its top seller. The 5 series looks good with the right exterior options and the same goes with the 1. The X5 is driven by all the criminals and the 3 series coupe and convert is old now. Too old. Maybe ugly but great class leading driving dynamics and strong engines.

Audi (A) are catching up to BMW and at first people didnt like the grille to much in europe but now people are really starting to dig it as more and more are on the road and the audi fan base is growing extremly fast. The A4 is beautiful when equipped with the right exterior options but when not its ugly. The same goes with the A3 except that in its poverty spec its not ugly just kinda boring. Audi fills the void inbetween mercedes and BMW. Audi A6 is the most beatiful executive on sale and the same goes with the A8. Audi also has the best interior in its class by a fair margin.This year and next will be big for them with the introduction of the A5,TT and possibly a A3 drop top. Audi are also making some of the best engines in the world at the moment.

Mercedes (B) The C-Class is poo compared to the audi A4 and 3 series. Anyone who buys it does so for the status and has too much money but not enough money to get a decent mercedes suchas the E-class or above. The cls and new S-class shows that mercedes are heading back towards theyre roots as high quality built machines. I predict over the next two years theyre gonna be back to their best.

Porsche (B) Basically just doing what theyve been doing for a while now. Introducing more models to make more profits and good ones at that. New panemera and possible a 944 or 914 or even both to join the lineup in the future.

Rest of VAG get an A as they benifit from each other engines and chassis from cars that cost over twice as much as them ala skoda to vw etc etc. They cater to everyobodes needs and budgets.

America

Overall a C

The cars are kinda bland. Not bad but not good. Just ok. Only standout is the corvette Z06. That cars is good. However american cars reputation in the UK is that americans usually have the best of everything so theyre cars should be uber too. Thats why all these brit celebs drive about in them and that will rob off onto the public.

Italy

Ferrari C-

The cars are getting uglier and less uber compared to competition. The gaps closing.

Lamborghini A Their lineup is ageing now but the gallardo is gonna get hopped up with a uber light version and a new entry level rwd drive version also possibly using the Audi RS4's uber V8.

The rest- They all suck except for zonda. Fiat alfa and maserati get a D from me. Fiat have crap engines maserati is a poor mans ferrari and a crap porsche/amg alternative. A\lfas break down.

Engerlaaaaandddddddddddddd

TVR (B) TVR's are uber.

Noble (B-) Uber like tvr but more expensive and less beautiful.

Aston Martin B Beautiful cars. Need better engines.

MG ROVER Apologies to all those poor folk that own one.

Ford/vauxhall (B) Same ole same ole providing us with affordable motoring the non flash way.As soon as you can afford something german these get traded in staright away.

Japan (D)

These guys have gotten borring. The evo's and STi's are now played out and enthusiats get bored with them unless they own one.

Only good car is the G35 and we dont even get that over here yet. Gotten real borring these guys no wonder no one here really buys nissans or toyotas or mitsus or subarus or.... Could go one all day. Only half decent seller is Honda with the accord and civic.

France - (c) If your and a budget and dont want a ford or vauxhall you buy one of these. So boring they are and not exactly nice on the eyes either.Nothing special about them except they handle fairly well and can be nippy. Clio is what the civic used to be. Peugeots are so ugly that theyre scared to scrap theyre 206 incase the new ugly 207 doesnt sell. Make good first cars but thats about it. Make couple good hot hatchs every now and again too. They sell well in france. Very well.

Korea (B) Theyre making strides. Improving all the day and hopefully one day they will hit us up with some turbocharged 4 pot bangers and be the new ricers weapon of choice.

 

[eliseracer]

This is a design thread. You cannot factor in reliability in the grades. Alfas have always made spectacular looking cars, there is no question about it.

Plus, if you factor in reliability, then you might as well factor in the thousands of dollars a year (I'm talking 5-digits here) it costs to keep a Ferrari or Lamborghini running, something you easily overlooked.

Personally, I think that the French have some of the most aesthetically progressive automakers in the world.