Was PD just sticking 2 fingers up at its own BoP

[John Smith UK]

by giving the Toyota Supra Concept a higher Top Speed than any other car and the ability to accelerate to it faster than the other cars get to their own top speed……. Most cars top out at Monza at around 170 but don’t reach it until you hit the Turn. The Supra reaches at least 175 well before the corner. It’s less so the Top Speed more the acceleration that kills other cars racing it.

so much for a fair and balanced lobby unless everyone races them

 

[TumeK5]

I've no idea what Business Process Outsourcing has to do with this, but...

 

[John Smith UK]

I've no idea what Business Process Outsourcing has to do with this, but...

No one likes a smart arse

 

[Batschisane52]

Just because a car has the highest top speed at Monza,that doesn't say, it is overall the fastest car on any track...

 

[Nuschel01]

Just because a car has the highest top speed at Monza,that doesn't say, it is overall the fastest car on any track...

bUt ToYoTa PAiD pOlYpHoNy FoR tHe SuPrA tO bE OP

I honestly haven't bothered with Gr.3 BoP races online at all yet but I'd say this is just the old case of one car being better than others in one certain circumstance but in other circumstances other cars will shine. Also the BoP is constantly updated and changed, balancing 40(?) cars for all tracks isn't easy and 100% success is impossible to archieve when sticking to a one-for-all BoP.

 

[John Smith UK]

bUt ToYoTa PAiD pOlYpHoNy FoR tHe SuPrA tO bE OP

I honestly haven't bothered with Gr.3 BoP races online at all yet but I'd say this is just the old case of one car being better than others in one certain circumstance but in other circumstances other cars will shine. Also the BoP is constantly updated and changed, balancing 40(?) cars for all tracks isn't easy and 100% success is impossible to archieve when sticking to a one-for-all BoP.

But why make it complicated, balance the power to weight like it’s done on pretty much every race series on planet earth, if a jobs worth doing then do it well not half arsed like BoP seems more times than not

 

[FPV MIC]

But why make it complicated, balance the power to weight like it’s done on pretty much every race series on planet earth, if a jobs worth doing then do it well not half arsed like BoP seems more times than not

You're over simplifying it. There's more to take into consideration than just balancing the power to weight ratio, that only works if they're all pretty much the same. Some cars are more aero effective in drag or downforce (or both), while others will have different width track and longer/shorter wheelbases increasing/decreasing their handling, then there's tyre wear and fuel efficiency to consider, and different powerbands/torque curves, etc. etc. etc.

It doesn't look quite so easy and straight forward once everything is taken into consideration, and as previously mentioned, this is why different cars have different strengths and weaknesses at different tracks.

 

[Famine]

No one likes a smart arse

Smart arses are fine. It's the dumbasses that are the problem.

Was PD just sticking 2 fingers up at its own BoP by giving the Toyota Supra Concept a higher Top Speed than any other car and the ability to accelerate to it faster than the other cars get to their own top speed……. Most cars top out at Monza at around 170 but don’t reach it until you hit the Turn. The Supra reaches at least 175 well before the corner. It’s less so the Top Speed more the acceleration that kills other cars racing it.

so much for a fair and balanced lobby unless everyone races them

No.

How PD's BOP probably works is that cars are balanced to an average speed (based on power and weight) over a single lap of all tracks. It's not balanced to a single lap of each track individually, or over any particular race length or any particular tyre wear rate and fuel consumption rate.

That means that if you were to race zero tyre wear/fuel consumption races across every track in the game, the cars would all be relatively closely matched by the end of it all.

It also means that at any given race, one car will dominate, because it's simply better at that track; it may not even be the car that's fastest around the lap, as any tyre wear/fuel consumption will lean in favour of something slightly slower over one lap but better across the race.

And it's been like this since the GT Sport Beta in 2017.

 

[John Smith UK]

Smart arses are fine. It's the dumbasses that are the problem.

No.

How PD's BOP probably works is that cars are balanced to an average speed (based on power and weight) over a single lap of all tracks. It's not balanced to a single lap of each track individually, or over any particular race length or any particular tyre wear rate and fuel consumption rate.

That means that if you were to race zero tyre wear/fuel consumption races across every track in the game, the cars would all be relatively closely matched by the end of it all.

It also means that at any given race, one car will dominate, because it's simply better at that track; it may not even be the car that's fastest around the lap, as any tyre wear/fuel consumption will lean in favour of something slightly slower over one lap but better across the race.

And it's been like this since the GT Sport Beta in 2017

But isn’t the game supposed to be fair and balanced for all players all cars, anyone can drive any car they like and have an equal chance to win - you answer “probably works” just highlights how little is shared about the games settings and workings. I have no idea how or why PD do what they do but the fact fewer players are active with the game says something isn’t right to make the game as appealing as earlier versions.

I'm sure I don’t play the game as much as many, I drift back and forth - the penalty system in GT Sport really turned me away from the game - but Im Competitive when I race - 2 wins 2 seconds and 2 quits in my 6 games today at Monza, in the seconds place races I was less than a second behind the leading Supra going onto the main straight in a Jag F type - but the Supra leading just pulled away down the straight, no slip stream impact to keep me close, the Supra maybe lacks a little in the corners but the track limits are quite generous so that straight line advantage was enough in both races for the winning Supra to lead me home by 4 and bit seconds. All I want is a fair chance to compete.

you can call me dumbass all you want, suggest I’m a dumbass in roundabout ways till the cows come home - your a bigger fan of the game than me I have no doubt but it’s broken, too many elements of the the game need serious TLC even you must admit that.

I remember the original GT proudly claimed to be the racing simulation - it was, it defined the genre as nothing came close to it on any console or PC - I don’t think GT7 carry’s the same mantle easily

 

[Nuschel01]

Feel free to develop a BoP on your own then, I'm interested in trying your results.

 

[Samus]

Feel free to develop a BoP on your own then, I'm interested in trying your results.

Did he ever claim to be a video game developer? This lazy "I'd like to see you" rebuttal really needs to die. You don't need to be an expert in something to notice flaws and have the right to critique it.

PD have had 5 years to do this, same as their penalty system. Neither seem any better than they were day 1 in GTS.

 

[John Smith UK]

Feel free to develop a BoP on your own then, I'm interested in trying your results.

If PD ever want to take have that conversation I’m happy to be part of it

 

[Famine]

But isn’t the game supposed to be fair and balanced for all players all cars, anyone can drive any car they like and have an equal chance to win

Apparently not.

What I'd like to see is - as with the real-world - a per race BOP, and have stated so on several occasions.

All I want is a fair chance to compete.

What's preventing you from driving the Supra and having that fair chance?

you can call me dumbass all you want, suggest I’m a dumbass in roundabout ways till the cows come home

I did neither of those things. It may be customary for you to insult others - as you have indeed already attempted - but don't project that onto other people.

your a bigger fan of the game than me I have no doubt but it’s broken, too many elements of the the game need serious TLC even you must admit that.

I routinely talk about aspects of the game - and all previous GT games - that I don't like. I'm not sure why you'd think I wouldn't or don't to suggest that "even" I must "admit" flaws.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

It's obviously not perfect, but you look at real life examples and even they can't get the BoP nailed, sometimes with quite obvious advantages like in the WEC in Monza where the Glickenhous was clearly the better car and in Le Mans where the Toyota was like-wise the dominant car.

This is one of the few things I really can't flak PD about it. There are cases where it's clearly a one-car meta, but there has been far more cases where at least 3-4 cars are competitive, and a lot of cases where those 3-4 cars good qualifiers but then are not dominant in the races, namely races with pitstops due to fuel consumption values and tyre wear.

It has also been improved compared to the days where literally no car but the Mazda Atenza Gr.4 was viable in Gr.4 races, in any track. This was back in March/April.

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

But isn’t the game supposed to be fair and balanced for all players all cars, anyone can drive any car they like and have an equal chance to win

No, what you're looking for is essentially a one-make race with the choice to change car skins. All of the cars in GT, much like in the real world, have different strengths and weaknesses.

I drive an Audi A6 Avant. It's a wagon, but it's a 3.2 litre V6 with Quattro. My wife drives a Nissan Rogue, that's a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder, front wheel drive. If I were to challenge my wife to a race to the grocery store, who would win?

I would, and easily! I can accelerate at a dumb fast pace compared to her Rogue. The only way for it to be a fair race is if we both drive the same car. And that's the problem with BoP races - everyone wants to stand a chance, so they check the leaderboards and see which car is at the top, and pick that car. BoP race will always largely be a race between 1 or 2 different cars, with the cars changing based on the track. You either pick the meta car to stand a chance, or you pick something else and come wherever you come!

 

[Nuschel01]

I would, and easily!

Unless you're a D/C driver and your wife's an A+/S driver

 

[ebadevil]

Have you not played any other online game... like ever? This is the same thing in any other game that has regular patches. Some skills, heroes, cars, weapons get better or worse with every update.

 

[Meythia]

But isn’t the game supposed to be fair and balanced for all players all cars,

No, the only ever fair thing is that everyone can use the same car (see nations cup).
As soon as you have a selection between 2 different(!) options, one will always be better than the other.
The more different options you provide, the less likely it is one of them will top it everytime.

 

[eran0004]

bUt ToYoTa PAiD pOlYpHoNy FoR tHe SuPrA tO bE OP

🤔 be OP… Be OP… Be oP… BoP! 😳

Mystery solved 😎

 

[MatskiMonk]

Did he ever claim to be a video game developer? This lazy "I'd like to see you" rebuttal really needs to die. You don't need to be an expert in something to notice flaws and have the right to critique it.

PD have had 5 years to do this, same as their penalty system. Neither seem any better than they were day 1 in GTS.

He alludes to knowing how BoP works in the real world, and has the two sliders he needs to control the things he thinks he needs. It's entirely not unreasonable to suggest he give it a try himself.

This is the entire premise he needs to test to know whether his standpoint is valid...

But why make it complicated, balance the power to weight like it’s done on pretty much every race series on planet earth,

He clearly doesn't need to be a video game developer to test this.

 

[TT92]

The PP system is badly flawed and broken. Just remember the Tomahawk glitch (RIP). PD have absolutely no idea how to balance these cars out and as such should just give up or return to a basic levelling system. eg Power, weight and downforce. There is no need to be concerned with suspension or tyres and when they do this is where they are getting unstuck every time.

I am going to graphically prove here how badly broken it is with some screen shots of tunes, all of which are readily available on this site.

Lets start with my favourite tuner, Praiano. If you're reading this, I really am a big fan, keep up the good work.

The car is the Alpine A220 currently being used by me (and many, many others) for the Tokyo rain event.

Below is Praino's tune at PP 599.18 using SH tyres and has 358 BHP. Nice tune drives very well and is what I would expect from this car.

So here is the tune that most of us use at PP 495.83 running RS tyres and 451BHP a 100ish HP more that Praiano and on Race Soft tyres! Sorry Praiano but this tune kicks yours to the curb ;-)

But wait, there is more. I take this same tune and do nothing BUT change to racing Intermediates from RS and the PP goes up (WTF!!) to 702.59 Then see the next one down where I put on Racing Hards!

Racing Hards nothing else in the tune changed, just tyres and the PP is now 730.57. So the tune has changed the PP by a whopping PP135 by going to a supposedly slower tyre!!!!

BUT wait there is more and this is the bit that I am really wanting everyone to see. So we take this original PP 595.83 tune and the ONLY change is the front toe, nothing else, just the toe by 0.04dg and the PP jumps to 749.58!!!! I challenge anyone to justify how that should be allowed happen and why it should continue!

Toe Out from 0.12 to Toe Out 0.08!!!

As you can see the PP system is, as I said originally, badly flawed and why I don't want to race online. How on earth can anyone expect such a bunch of incompetent idiots to organise a BoP system when this garbage is allowed to happen?!

And no, it is not only this car that that is affected but every one that I have attempted to tune to some degree. To stay within a PP I have taken 40-50BHP out of tune just because I altered the toe or camber a little bit >:-(

Cars, as with people, some are just better than others at certain things. The harder PD tries to even the playing field the worse they make it.

But this ridiculous situation I have demonstrated above turns this whole thing into a farce >:-(

BoP should be referenced at 40% weight, 40% bhp and 20% downforce (measured over the whole car not just wings) NO tyres, NO tuning, NO nuthin' else. You restrict the races by tyre choice and min/max weight and car category. (Which is another thing PD screwed up BUT that is another subject).

Personally I treat this whole game as a joke and never miss an opportunity to take advantage of any little glitch that slips through. And there will be more ;-)



PS don't even get me started on track limits or cheating/ramming AI >:-(

 

[RobertHammer]

The PP system is badly flawed and broken. Just remember the Tomahawk glitch (RIP). PD have absolutely no idea how to balance these cars out and as such should just give up or return to a basic levelling system. eg Power, weight and downforce. There is no need to be concerned with suspension or tyres and when they do this is where they are getting unstuck every time.

imho that is a problem with PP system , mainly with the suspension body height which can be exploited ,but that should be a easy fix just like they did with the gearbox - also you can't exploit this with BoP on

personally i would take a stricter BoP so every car has the same chances to win

 

[st3vao]

the only thing the Supra is not great at is fuel efficiency, in every other aspect it is way better than any other car

 

[Meythia]

imho that is a problem with PP system , mainly with the suspension body height which can be exploited ,but that should be a easy fix just like they did with the gearbox - also you can't exploit this with BoP on

I dont think it is this easy. PP and BoP are different for a reason, PP to allow to change the car and BoP to make a level field (this is why tyres are free on BoP). As with this, the early implementation of gearbox into PP was better if not for the obvious bugs around it and by that PP "fixing" definitly cant be an easy task. Making it more difficult to exploit by removing the next thing that impacts PP isnt the same in any way.

 

[Batschisane52]

The PP system is badly flawed and broken. Just remember the Tomahawk glitch (RIP). PD have absolutely no idea how to balance these cars out and as such should just give up or return to a basic levelling system. eg Power, weight and downforce. There is no need to be concerned with suspension or tyres and when they do this is where they are getting unstuck every time.

I am going to graphically prove here how badly broken it is with some screen shots of tunes, all of which are readily available on this site.

Lets start with my favourite tuner, Praiano. If you're reading this, I really am a big fan, keep up the good work.

The car is the Alpine A220 currently being used by me (and many, many others) for the Tokyo rain event.

Below is Praino's tune at PP 599.18 using SH tyres and has 358 BHP. Nice tune drives very well and is what I would expect from this car.

View attachment 1176885

So here is the tune that most of us use at PP 495.83 running RS tyres and 451BHP a 100ish HP more that Praiano and on Race Soft tyres! Sorry Praiano but this tune kicks yours to the curb ;-)

View attachment 1176886


But wait, there is more. I take this same tune and do nothing BUT change to racing Intermediates from RS and the PP goes up (WTF!!) to 702.59 Then see the next one down where I put on Racing Hards!


View attachment 1176888



Racing Hards nothing else in the tune changed, just tyres and the PP is now 730.57. So the tune has changed the PP by a whopping PP135 by going to a supposedly slower tyre!!!!


View attachment 1176889


BUT wait there is more and this is the bit that I am really wanting everyone to see. So we take this original PP 595.83 tune and the ONLY change is the front toe, nothing else, just the toe by 0.04dg and the PP jumps to 749.58!!!! I challenge anyone to justify how that should be allowed happen and why it should continue!

Toe Out from 0.12 to Toe Out 0.08!!!


View attachment 1176890



As you can see the PP system is, as I said originally, badly flawed and why I don't want to race online. How on earth can anyone expect such a bunch of incompetent idiots to organise a BoP system when this garbage is allowed to happen?!

And no, it is not only this car that that is affected but every one that I have attempted to tune to some degree. To stay within a PP I have taken 40-50BHP out of tune just because I altered the toe or camber a little bit >:-(

Cars, as with people, some are just better than others at certain things. The harder PD tries to even the playing field the worse they make it.

But this ridiculous situation I have demonstrated above turns this whole thing into a farce >:-(

BoP should be referenced at 40% weight, 40% bhp and 20% downforce (measured over the whole car not just wings) NO tyres, NO tuning, NO nuthin' else. You restrict the races by tyre choice and min/max weight and car category. (Which is another thing PD screwed up BUT that is another subject).

Personally I treat this whole game as a joke and never miss an opportunity to take advantage of any little glitch that slips through. And there will be more ;-)



PS don't even get me started on track limits or cheating/ramming AI >:-(

This is well known and no new information.But PP and BoP a two different things, so there is no real reason to talk so much about PP in this thread...

But you wording shows clearly that you are not interested in an objective conversation anyway...

 

[Sarajevo89]

I will just say that BoP in WEC is cancer. Let them create as fast cars as they can and if someone is miles ahead so be it, they deserved it for their superior engineering and smarts.

I do think they need to do something for race C. Last week everyone was Nissan on Nurb. Week prior everyone was CLK on Deep Forest, now it's Supra or bust. It's not a good look

 

[pedrocor]

In this particular case is not a BoP flaw.
The track selected isn't a "balanced" track at all. It's design doesn't reflect the all around performance of the car, where the BoP should focus, but the ultimate performance is almost entirely based on acceleration and top speed. So, a not so agile or balanced car but with great engine will be OP here, but certainly a nightmare at Willow Springs or Trail Mountain.

Isn't unusual the GT3 model that dominates the 24h Nurburgring isn't a dominant car on GT World Challenge or the 24h of Spa, simply because of track specifics.

 

[Batschisane52]

I will just say that BoP in WEC is cancer. Let them create as fast cars as they can and if someone is miles ahead so be it, they deserved it for their superior engineering and smarts.

I do think they need to do something for race C. Last week everyone was Nissan on Nurb. Week prior everyone was CLK on Deep Forest, now it's Supra or bust. It's not a good look

What skil level are you...?

I am on level D, and usually the races have quite diverse Grids, with different cars...

The effect of those Meta Cars is also much weaker in lower skil levels:For the top level Drivers ist might make quite a dufference if he is using a Supra or any other carm because he has the ability to quensch out 10th of a second depending wich car he is using, but not so skilled drivers don't have that ability-for them it is more important wich car suits their driving style best...

I never use those meta cars, and on my level right now I am always able to beat opponents with the same level that use those meta cars...

 

[Meythia]

The effect of those Meta Cars is also much weaker in lower skil levels:For the top level Drivers ist might make quite a dufference if he is using a Supra or any other carm because he has the ability to quensch out 10th of a second depending wich car he is using, but not so skilled drivers don't have that ability-for them it is more important wich car suits their driving style best...

While it is true that only on a top level you would see the difference making an impact, cars that are generally better suited to a track still will be better on a lower level of player skill. There is no helping it when a track has lots of straights other than picking the car with the most power because no matter your cornering and braking skills, you wont catch up in the end of the day.

 

[NevilleNobody]

THis is tricky for PD and I do not expect them to nail it and it has been exacerbated by the ability to rent cars so no stopping everyone using the meta. In saying that, whilst I get it is hard to avoid a meta the issue I have is the gap tot he next car, at Monza this week there is literally nothing even close to the supra. The vette kinda sorta can compete but tbh it's a struggle. It was almost as bad the week before at Sardegna, I used the Z4 which run out of top end by the middle of the straights but at least the secure rear end made me competitive vs guys losing it in the supra.

The other issue with the supra right now is the relatively secure rear end, so not only is it fast, it's one of the more stable cars when you git the gas, the jag and the stang are way, way harder to get on the gas with. This circles back tot he ridiculous TC settings, TC1 will dead set lose you a second on slow corner exit, it is way, way, way too strong and means for some users they cannot contemplate anything but cars with good rear ends.