Was "Veyron poll" - Then "VAG/GM discussion" - Now "Veyron discussion again"

[High-Test]

Joey, let's not start another F-150 debate.. Remember what happened last time?

Honestly, I think VAG is afraid that some crazy car tuner might have bigger cojones than their performance ward, so they're building it so they can still be on top. -For now.

 

[Dave A]

American VW's are typically built in Mexico. I think some in Brazil as well, but don't quote me on that. I remember M5Power telling me sometime ago.

I think that's true, I know most are built in Mexico.

Maybe someone needs to explain Grand Tourer and give other examples, I've always been told the Veyron was a Super or Hyper car....which I can sort of see, but not fully.

Here's a definition I found that give's examples as well as a definition

"A grand tourer, sometimes initialised GT, is a high-performance automobile designed for long distance driving.Any such car could be considered to be a grand tourer, but the traditional and most common body style is a two door coupe, with either a two seat or a 2+2 seat arrangement. Example cars include the BMW 6-series and the Aston Martin DB9.

Grand tourers differ from sports cars in that they are usually larger, heavier and tend make less compromise in comfort for the sake of driving ability. For this reason they mostly have front-mounted engines that leave more space for the cabin than mid-mounted engines. They also tend to have softer suspension to provide good ride quality. However, grand tourers do have similarities with sports cars, such as the fact they mainly use rear or four wheel drive, and the term sports car may be used to describe a car with grand touring qualities, Exception Handler: No article summary found.Very high-performance grand tourers, Exception Handler: No article summary found.such as the Ferrari 575 M may be considered to be supercar."

This quote sum's the Veyron up best imo - "Unlike the Ferrari Enzo, the Veyron is not a racing car in disguise. Instead, the Bugatti is intended to be the grandest grand tourer."

It goes back to phyics, after enough stress and strain the parts wear out and fail. I'm sure parts on a 1001hp car will wear out and fail much quicker then parts on a 100hp Civic. There is still a structral limit with metals and alloys, I learned this in my materials class during high school.

Yeah, so why increase the power needlessly and why not create an engine that will produce the least stress for a 1000bhp car and be able to handle that stress as best as realistically possible.

And no it goes 250mph because there is some limiting factor...I'm guessing the tires, heat, and massive amounts of stress.

Apparently it's the tyre's, they wern't sufficiently tested over 252mph, and the last thing VAG want is a headline saying billionaire dies in 1 million $ car crash becasue his tyre's blew out on a V-Max run.

 

[Joey D]

But VW did their best to create a relatively reliable 1001hp 4WD quad-turbo 16-cylinder supercar. Its reliability is an engineering accomplishment on its own.

I still think that's a lot of force to be putting on anything, even great things break...and they are even more expensive to fix. Look at a Boeing 777, huge airplane with a ton of thrust, lots of stress on the plane all around. It still breaks because of that force.

Metal can only with stand so much stress.

Thanks for the defanition L4S, that clears up some of the questions I had.

 

[Poverty]

Wrong, the barrier of physics is the speed of light, although Famine will do a much better job of explaining everything then I ever will.

But in real world materials everything has a breaking point which takes x amount of newtons to break it. There is a ton of physics that goes into this like shape, size, density, postion, etc. It's hard to explain in short since I toke a 30 week class on the subject.



To waste more resources and knowledge on a car that hardly anyone will buy, why not put effort into creating something that will out do the F-150 in global sales? That seems like a better use of resources.

1. Were talking about physics and cars. Not physics and the world.

2. The F-150 is outdone in global sales. The entire F series isnt, even though the range consists of very different models. Knowledge is never wasted. Knowledge is power, and that knowledge will allow VAG to make very technically advanced vehicles, why cant you understand that the veyron was just basically a research project and a halo car for nthe rest of the brand. Either way the money would have been spent on developing something or researching another type of technology, but with the veyron VAG got first hand experience with the teachnology they were building.

 

[Dave A]

I still think that's a lot of force to be putting on anything, even great things break...and they are even more expensive to fix. Look at a Boeing 777, huge airplane with a ton of thrust, lots of stress on the plane all around. It still breaks because of that force.

Metal can only with stand so much stress.

I think it's safe to say that the W16 in the Veyron will create more spread out stress over it's more cylinders and be able to withstand that stress better than a Hennessey tuned Viper's engine can with 1000bhp.

 

[Joey D]

1. Cars are based in a world of physics, hence they must abide by these laws.

2. They created technology that no one will really ever use, I mean who's going to need a 1000 car that travels 250mph? You aren't. The technology should have been developed on a Golf or a Jetta...something that would actually benefit the world.

I think it's safe to say that the W16 in the Veyron will create more spread out stress over it's more cylinders and be able to withstand that stress better than a Hennessey tuned Viper's engine can with 1000bhp.

Hennessey's are very strong cars, and I've ever only talked to an owner of one so I'm going by what he says. He beat the hell out of the things and drove it quite a bit, he had 40 thousand miles on the car when I talked to him last year at a car meet.

 

[Dave A]

Yeah but is it more relaiable than a Veyron's W16, the answer is we don't know, anything else is specualtion. But VAG are confident the W16 is extrememy reliable.

The laws of physics cannot be beaten, however our understanding of these laws may be incomplete and leave room for someone to exeperience seemingly impossible effects from time to time, however, just because we didn't know that you could create thoes effects fro our understanding, that doesn't meant the laws of physics have been broken, just our current definition of them has.

 

[Joey D]

Yeah but is it more relaiable than a Veyron's W16, the answer is we don't know, anything else is specualtion. But VAG are confident the W16 is extrememy reliable.

You are totally right, and really no one will really drive a Veyron all that much if they do have it. It will be a weekend car or something, in other words it will not be someones daily driver. So that rests that.

 

[Poverty]

1. Cars are based in a world of physics, hence they must abide by these laws.

2. They created technology that no one will really ever use, I mean who's going to need a 1000 car that travels 250mph? You aren't. The technology should have been developed on a Golf or a Jetta...something that would actually benefit the world.

They will have gained gearbox and clutch knowledge, extra aero knowledge, engine knowledge, cooling knowledge and turbo knowledge. How will that equate to normal everyday cars?

They can make lighter, stronger and mure durable gearboxes and make lighter more powerful and economical engines, because they know the most effiecient ways to cool the car, the best ways to rid the car of turbo lag and the best way on how to mount configure and decide on the materials needed to make the engine.

Are you going to tell me now that VAG's lemans entry is a waste of resources to, because of that project we now have FSI technology in VAG engines. How about the porsche 959? Was that a waste of resources because it gave birth to what VAG now call DSG. How about the Ur Quattro? It hasnt given VAG models a brilliant drivetrain has it now?

 

[Poverty]

You are totally right, and really no one will really drive a Veyron all that much if they do have it. It will be a weekend car or something, in other words it will not be someones daily driver. So that rests that.

Just wait till the next gumball. there should be one or two veyrons in it.

As for the physics alot of it is now in controversy as people have found flaws in einsteins work I belive it was and stephen hawkins says he made a mistake about black holes and that will have a detrimental effect on our understanding or belief of what we knew about physics

 

[Joey D]

Ok I'll agree that they probably will use something off the car, but in all honesty I still think a good 80% of the car is completely useless and could have been developed in some other, more benefiscal way.

Just wait till the next gumball. there should be one or two veyrons in it.

I'll ask the Teckademics crew if they've heard anything since they are pretty big with the Gumball Rally's

As for the physics alot of it is now in controversy as people have found flaws in einsteins work I belive it was and stephen hawkins says he made a mistake about black holes and that will have a detrimental effect on our understanding or belief of what we knew about physics

Errr...I'm talking more and more about Newtonian Phyics, not Quantum Physics, Newtonian is proven for the most part, Quantum is not.

 

[Dave A]

Regarding any physics, if we get it wrong that's just our definition that's wrong, the actual laws of physics are the same as they have always been, we just don't fully understand them. That doesn't mean that if something happens that we can't explain, the law's of physics have been broken, just that our definitions and understanding of it is wrong or incomplete,

 

[Poverty]

How can someone gain new knowledge if they dont exercise their brain and push the boundaries of what they already know?

Thats why the made the veyron. If they wanted an all out racer with 1000hp they could have done that with ease.

 

[Joey D]

It's not complicated to make a 1000hp car, we've established this. Now to make a car that runs on alternative fuels, gets insane mpg ratings, etc. is more pushing the boundries....not making a big fast car.

 

[Dave A]

I agree, the Veyron was done purely as a technical exercise to see what they could do. The engineer's said it was impossible to create what VAG wanted, but ater all that time they did it and that knowledge is there for good now, they must have learned a lot from the Veyron's development. Creating 1000bhp isn't hard, but that's not what VAG wanted in a nutshell, they wanted the whole package, the speed the comfort, the brakes and what brakes they are, the increased understanding of cooling and aerodynamics they learned from it all, they gained cmoponents and knowledge, things that they think will bring a benefit in the long run.

 

[Poverty]

It's not complicated to make a 1000hp car, we've established this. Now to make a car that runs on alternative fuels, gets insane mpg ratings, etc. is more pushing the boundries....not making a big fast car.

Well then going by your way of thinking a 3 year old most have designed your beloved Z06 then, because thats difference between the veyron and the vette.

And what you have mentioned will happen one day, but we will most likely never be alive to see it. Many manufacturers cant even make good cars let alone economical cars. It will happen one day but your getting ahead of yourself.

If VAG did create such technology the USA army would wade in and put it all under wraps anyway. We wont see those kind of things in public vehicles till the army has it for a couple decades. Just like the internet.

 

[the Interceptor]

It's not complicated to make a 1000hp car, we've established this. Now to make a car that runs on alternative fuels, gets insane mpg ratings, etc. is more pushing the boundries....not making a big fast car.

... which brings us back to the original question. If Piech had said:"I want a car with 1001hp", they'd been on vacation after a week. But he didn't, he said:"I want a car that has 1001hp, does 252mph, looks like the prototype and is worth to carry the name 'Bugatti'". Now that is a different story, and archieving all those goals, I think the engineers have done a brilliant job. That's why it is an archievement in my eyes.

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[Joey D]

Well then going by your way of thinking a 3 year old most have designed your beloved Z06 then, because thats difference between the veyron and the vette.

Wrong, I was talking in terms of it's not complicated for an automotive company or an aftermarket company to do so. There are quite a few 1000hp cars out there, I know of a guy with a 1000hp GMC Typhoon and there are actually quite a few 1000+ hp Typhoons running around. It's not overly difficult to build a 1000 hp motor. The Z06 engine is very simple, I won't disagree. It's the weight and a suspension that makes it such good car. Not to mention the cheap price tag. And I can tell you exactly why the Z06 has a 427 in it if you care too.

If VAG did create such technology the USA army would wade in and put it all under wraps anyway. We wont see those kind of things in public vehicles till the army has it for a couple decades. Just like the internet.

I doubt VAG has anywhere near the budget that the US military has to develope things.

... which brings us back to the original question. If Piech had said:"I want a car with 1001hp", they'd been on vacation after a week. But he didn't, he said:"I want a car that has 1001hp, does 252mph, looks like the prototype and is worth to carry the name 'Bugatti'". Now that is a different story, and archieving all those goals, I think the engineers have done a brilliant job. That's why it is an archievement in my eyes.

The last sentence somes all of this up, in your eyes. In my eyes I think it's a joke, all a matter of opinions.

 

[the Interceptor]

In my eyes I think it's a joke, all a matter of opinions.

Why's it a joke in your eyes?

 

[Joey D]

Why what? Why do I agree with you? Why does it sum is all up? Or why it's a joke?

I agree with you because in your eyes it's something and in my eyes it is something else.

It sums it all up because this whole thread is based off of opinions since none of us have ever probably seen a Veyron in person, and if they have it was probably at a show.

I think it's a joke because its a stupid car, that's over priced, and there is no need for it. That's my opinion.

 

[Dave A]

In the future there be a need for any of the knowledge, techniques and technology used in the R&D of the Veyron? Can any of that benefit us in any way in the future?

 

[the Interceptor]

Why what? Why do I agree with you? Why does it sum is all up? Or why it's a joke?

I agree with you because in your eyes it's something and in my eyes it is something else.

It sums it all up because this whole thread is based off of opinions since none of us have ever probably seen a Veyron in person, and if they have it was probably at a show.

Yeah sorry, I extended my "why" too late.

I think it's a joke because its a stupid car, that's over priced, and there is no need for it. That's my opinion.

Stupidity lies all in the eye of the beholder. And even if was overpriced and if there was no need for it, would that mean that it can't be a technological archievement?
This might be an odd analogy, but how 'bout this: inventing the nuclear bomb was an engineering archievement, but do we really need it? No. But even if we don't, does that mean that its invention isn't an archievement anymore?

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[Joey D]

In the future there be a need for any of the knowledge, techniques and technology used in the R&D of the Veyron? Can any of that benefit us in any way in the future?

There will never be the need for 1000hp, 250mph, or something that cost 1 million dollars. There will never be a need for a quad turbos, there will never be a need for a mid engine, 2 seat car, that gets 9 mpg.

I can't see much use off the Veyron, but if someone wants to show me go for it.

Stupidity lies all in the eye of the beholder.

So it's no different, it's all a matter of opinions.

And even if was overpriced and if there was no need for it, would that mean that it can't be a technological archievement?

You could build the best thing in the world and if no one can afford it, it's pointless.

This might be an odd analogy, but how 'bout this: inventing the nuclear bomb was an engineering archievement, but do we really need it? No. But even if we don't, does that mean that its invention isn't an archievement anymore?

The nuclear bomb also killed hundreds of thousands of people and pretty much screwed up the world's veiw of politics. It was an engineering achievement, but not a good one.

 

[Poverty]

Wrong, I was talking in terms of it's not complicated for an automotive company or an aftermarket company to do so. There are quite a few 1000hp cars out there, I know of a guy with a 1000hp GMC Typhoon and there are actually quite a few 1000+ hp Typhoons running around. It's not overly difficult to build a 1000 hp motor. The Z06 engine is very simple, I won't disagree. It's the weight and a suspension that makes it such good car. Not to mention the cheap price tag. And I can tell you exactly why the Z06 has a 427 in it if you care too.



I doubt VAG has anywhere near the budget that the US military has to develope things.



The last sentence somes all of this up, in your eyes. In my eyes I think it's a joke, all a matter of opinions.

1.I could get 1000hp out of a 1.6 Liter engine if I really wanted to.

2. For its simplicity it is a heavy car. For its class its a heavy car.[See TVR]

3. Its suspension is far from class leading. BMW's and porsches with over 100 less BHP keep up with it. Also the 997 T is heavier has less power but is faster.

4. Its cheap price tag is not a valid comparison.

5. Why does the Z06 have the 427? Is it because it was developed "alongside" the C6R?

6. [sarcasm] You dont say [sarcasm]

7. Is the cadillac 16 a joke to you?

 

[the Interceptor]

There will never be the need for 1000hp, 250mph, or something that cost 1 million dollars. There will never be a need for a quad turbos, there will never be a need for a mid engine, 2 seat car, that gets 9 mpg.

I can't see much use off the Veyron, but if someone wants to show me go for it.

Pushing the envelope always teaches you something. Making the Veyron doesn't mean that the Mark VII Golf will have 1000hp and go 250+mph. But if you go where no man has gone before (sorry, I had to ), you learn things you didn't know before. And even if you won't be able to use those things 1:1, you can still use that knowledge to improve your future products.

You could build the best thing in the world and if no one can afford it, it's pointless.

Wo says an engineering archievement has to be affordable? Sure it's great to invent something that helps everybody and is affordable. But I don't see why there is a need for that.

Regards
the Interceptor

EDIT: I'm off to bed. I wonder what I'll get to read here tomorrow morning.

 

[Dave A]

There will never be the need for 1000hp, 250mph, or something that cost 1 million dollars. There will never be a need for a quad turbos, there will never be a need for a mid engine, 2 seat car, that gets 9 mpg.

I can't see much use off the Veyron, but if someone wants to show me go for it.

I think you missunderstood, I didn't mean, will we need a Veyron in the future, I mean can what was learned during the Veyron's R&D benefit us in the future. Design idea's, theories and components studied during the Veyrons development. Personally I think they can be of great use in future cars, even in family hatchbacks, ofcourse it'll be a long time before you see any of that, but it was a long time before electric wondows made it onto small cars as well.

 

[Joey D]

1.I could get 1000hp out of a 1.6 Liter engine if I really wanted to.

2. For its simplicity it is a heavy car. For its class its a heavy car.[See TVR]

3. Its suspension is far from class leading. BMW's and porsches with over 100 less BHP keep up with it. Also the 997 T is heavier has less power but is faster.

4. Its cheap price tag is not a valid comparison.

5. Why does the Z06 have the 427? Is it because it was developed "alongside" the C6R?

6. [sarcasm] You dont say [sarcasm]

7. Is the cadillac 16 a joke to you?

1. No you couldn't, but an aftermarket company could and that's with a lot of money.

2. It's a heavy car, it weighs over two tons...thats a lot of weight.

3. But those cars are not in it's class, nor as cheap as the Vette.

4. Yes it is, price is pretty much the leading factor of everything. The world runs on money.

5. The Z06 has a 427 in it because the older Vettes had them, it's a matter of heritage and more marketing then anything. People see 427 and they think Vette.

7. Yes and no, it's only a concept and will never be more then that. They will never build it with 16 cyclinders. Concepts are different then production models...which the Veyron should have stayed.

 

[Joey D]

Wo says an engineering archievement has to be affordable? Sure it's great to invent something that helps everybody and is affordable. But I don't see why there is a need for that.

Business sense says that is should be afforable.

I think you missunderstood, I didn't eman, will we need a Veyron in the future, I mean can what was learned during the Veyron's R&D benefit us in the future. Design idea's, theories and components studied during the Veyrons development. Personally I think they can be of great use even in family hatchbacks, ofcourse it'll be a long time before you see any of thet, but it was a long time before electric wondows made it onto small cars as well.

Well if VAG took the R&D from the Veyron...it would take 12 years for them to make a car .

 

[Dave A]

2. For its simplicity it is a heavy car. For its class its a heavy car.[See TVR]

TVR's arn't heavy, their super light, they rarely go as high as 1100kg's. TVR's are proepr sportscars, powerful, light and rear wheel drive with no nanny devices to control the experience. You need ot comapre it to a Bently GT or an Aston Martin DB9 or a Meac Merc SLR.

Business sense says that is should be afforable.

No, business sense say's that whatever the cost, you should get more than that back over whatever period of time, not that the product must be affordable. VAG will make back what was spent on the Veyron's development by utilising techniques and technology they've gained from it, and selling more cost effective Bugatti's now the brand has been well and truely re-launched.

 

[Poverty]

TVR's arn't heavy, their super light, they rarely go as high as 1100kg's. TVR's are proepr sportscars, powerful, light and rear wheel drive with no nanny devices to control the experience.

I think I must have worded it wrong as both you and blazibg misunderstood me. I ment that for its simplicity the Z06 is fairly heavy, especially when compared to the likes of TVR.