We have budgetary approval...

[GilesGuthrie]

As the title says, we have budgetary approval for a new PC in the giles-guthrie.com household. Something in the region of £1,500. Primarily to be used for web development plus graphic work, both still and video. I'm not much of a gamer.

Required Specifications:
2GB RAM
Dual-Layer DVD writer
Flat Panel (at least 1280x1024 native resolution)
Firewire
LAN
4x USB2 ports (at least, plus at least one of which has to be front-mounted)
Windows XP Professional

NOT Required:
Speakers
Other Software
External Hardware (scanners, printers etc)

All other things are free for discussion.

Basically, I don't think I'm likely to be able to build a system for less than the large-scale vendors. I think it's likely that I'll be ordering a P4-3.2GHz Dell, as they're the only ones who will give me the boxed configuration that I want. However, I'm interested in alternatives, such as whether an AMD system can give me more performance, what sort of motherboard is good to look out for, whether 533MHz DDR2 RAM gives a useful performance lift over 400MHz RAM, and what sort of Graphics Card should I go for? Will (for example) the ATI Radeon X300 give me a sizeable performance improvement over the on-board Intel Extreme Graphics chipset?

I don't want anyone telling me to use Linux, or a Mac, thanks...

I'm UK-based, so bear this in mind when formulating responses.

Comments welcome...

 

[Event]

ooh! Sounds like fun! I will look into this!

Actually, I do believe you can build a better system for cheaper if you build itself. That's what I was going to do- I was going to look into parts at newegg (is there a Newegg UK?)

EDIT: Also, if you want some very good help on PC suggestions, go to http://www.PCMech.com . They reply very quickly and know everything there is to know about PCs.

 

[Flerbizky]

Giles...

Let me start by asking, what makes you think you'll need 2 gigs of RAM ?.. Unless you'll be doing some very heavy CAD/CAM work, I see no use for 2 gigs. Read an article from either Tomshardware.com or Anadtech.com where they tested the benefit of 2 gigs.. And a lot of times it wasn't - My recommendation - stick with 2 512Mb sticks of matched DDR and you should be just fine..

Being a loud an extremely obnoxious fanboy, I'd recommend the Athlon XP64 3500+ in the 939 package, then pair it up with a Asus board like the A8V and you should be good to go..
The Asus board will also provide enough USB2 and Firewire ports to keep you happy for a long time And most cases will provide front ports for both USB and Firewire... Ohh.. The Asus also has built in support for 802.11g networking... (and regular lan of course, even gigaspeed if you'd like that..)

And yes.. If you do settle for Intel, do yourself a favor and get something like the X300. The Intel "Extreme" graphics isn't what you'd call Extreme in any way. If you don't do a lot of gaming, I'm sure the X300 will do just fine...

Finally get a pair of 74Gig 10000rpm serial ATA disks from Western Digital, run them in a raid 0 and you should be on your way to video editing heaven 👍

[edit]Samsung makes some really nice flat panels, unless you could persuade the EO to let you buy a 23" Apple Cinema HD... Those babies ROCK![/edit]

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Giles...

Let me start by asking, what makes you think you'll need 2 gigs of RAM ?.. Unless you'll be doing some very heavy CAD/CAM work, I see no use for 2 gigs. Read an article from either Tomshardware.com or Anadtech.com where they tested the benefit of 2 gigs.. And a lot of times it wasn't - My recommendation - stick with 2 512Mb sticks of matched DDR and you should be just fine..

Being a loud an extremely obnoxious fanboy, I'd recommend the Athlon XP64 3500+ in the 939 package, then pair it up with a Asus board like the A8V and you should be good to go..
The Asus board will also provide enough USB2 and Firewire ports to keep you happy for a long time And most cases will provide front ports for both USB and Firewire... Ohh.. The Asus also has built in support for 802.11g networking... (and regular lan of course, even gigaspeed if you'd like that..)

And yes.. If you do settle for Intel, do yourself a favor and get something like the X300. The Intel "Extreme" graphics isn't what you'd call Extreme in any way. If you don't do a lot of gaming, I'm sure the X300 will do just fine...

Finally get a pair of 74Gig 10000rpm serial ATA disks from Western Digital, run them in a raid 0 and you should be on your way to video editing heaven 👍

[edit]Samsung makes some really nice flat panels, unless you could persuade the EO to let you buy a 23" Apple Cinema HD... Those babies ROCK![/edit]

'tis a useful reply, and no mistake...

So, why 2GB memory? Well, I'm planning on video editing, and also hi-resolution picture editing. I'm currently running a 512MB system, and am regularly allocating over 800MB memory just doing still image work. (My film scanner allocates up to 400MB memory to scan strips of film, which are then 35MB as compressed TIFFs. I can just see video editing sending the memory usage skywards. So it's not as though I need the whole 2GB, but I'm pretty much certain that I need more than 1GB.

On AMD + ASUS, the research I've done thus far does make me think that the boards you get for AMD processors offer better value than those for Intel processors. But then the only real thing I would need to add to an Intel board is a Firewire card, and they're only £25. I used to be an obnoxious Intel fanboy, but I'm not any more.

On the on-board vs PCI-Express Graphics - I was thinking that I would just splash the £100 or so on a card, but thanks for the confirmation that this is more likely to be luxury than necessity.

Flat Panel was a requirement from the Financial Controller. I was thinking of a second 21" CRT in a dual-head config, but she allowed no doubt in my mind that that was unacceptable. It's a shame, but I don't think that the budget can stretch to a 20" model. Let alone the 23" one that you recommend!

2x Hard drives in RAID 0 sounds quite tidy!

 

[Flerbizky]

'tis a useful reply, and no mistake...

So, why 2GB memory? Well, I'm planning on video editing, and also hi-resolution picture editing. I'm currently running a 512MB system, and am regularly allocating over 800MB memory just doing still image work. (My film scanner allocates up to 400MB memory to scan strips of film, which are then 35MB as compressed TIFFs. I can just see video editing sending the memory usage skywards. So it's not as though I need the whole 2GB, but I'm pretty much certain that I need more than 1GB.

I know scanning takes up a lot of memory. Scanned our entire 35mm collection in 32bit, 4800dpi. Usually 4 / 5 images pr. strip. But the amount of RAM taken to do so means **** all. The speed the scanner delivers the data could be transferred through IP over message pigeon It's not until you start editing the pictures you'll need a lot of RAM, and 2 gigs for editing pictures is like shooting canaries with a haubitzer.. I've done a little video editing on this machine, and have never seen any problems with my measly 1 gig

That, and I would NEVER recommend to anyone that they put 4 sticks of DDR in a machine. You'll be hard pressed to find 4 sticks that'll work together with fast timings... And 2 1 gig sticks will be VERY expensive...

On AMD + ASUS, the research I've done thus far does make me think that the boards you get for AMD processors offer better value than those for Intel processors. But then the only real thing I would need to add to an Intel board is a Firewire card, and they're only £25.

Another AMD +... IF you go with a XP64, you'll be way ahead of the Intel competition once Windows XP64 gets here

I used to be an obnoxious Intel fanboy, but I'm not any more.

Come on Giles.. Don't be so boring.. Let's have a little namecalling and mud throwing

On the on-board vs PCI-Express Graphics - I was thinking that I would just splash the £100 or so on a card, but thanks for the confirmation that this is more likely to be luxury than necessity.

Either I misunderstand this, or you misunderstand my previous post. I was trying to say that the Intel Extreme graphics suck <insert nasty word from vocabulary here>... The Intel Extreme graphics are extremely poor and I would NOT use them for anything other that webbrowsing, a little Word and Excel. (Minesweeper perhaps...)
And if you're absolutely SURE you won't be doing any gaming, I'd even suggest looking at the Matrox Parhelia range...

2x Hard drives in RAID 0 sounds quite tidy!

The screenshot is with the old 10K rpm Western Digital Raptors. The newer 74 gigs have up to 16Mb cache and TCQ which greatly improves performance (my Sata controller is the old and crappy SIL 3112A whereas the A8V has a faster Promise controller..)
(and the drive tested has NOT been de-fragged for decades)

 

[Flerbizky]

Gah.. You english people and your VAT... Had a nice system together with 600gig harddrive and what not.. Only to find out, that WITH VAT, I'm 260 above your max

 

[emad]

for video editing, the p4's with hyperthreading are currently a bit better than the Athlon64... but the 64 bit athlon is still an amazing chip 👍.

For graphics card, try for a radeon 9600xt AIW or something like that. Since you don't game often, it should also be fine if you go down to a Radeon 9200XT. They're relatively cheap, and the AIW bit is great for capturing video.


for your LCD monitor, I'd suggest an LG. They currently have the best warranty and they also have one of the best dead pixel policies around. I think it's like 5 dead pixels on the edges and they'll replace it or one dead pixel in the middle of the screen and they'll replace it.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Gah.. You english people and your VAT... Had a nice system together with 600gig harddrive and what not.. Only to find out, that WITH VAT, I'm 260 above your max

The max is a little... flexible. Budgets are not set in stone! Having said that, I think £1,760 would have to be a real top-end system.

I've also thought that if it's not going to give me a massive boost now, I could always shove 1GB memory in now, and worry about upgrading it later...

And the 10K RPM S-ATA drives are seriously expensive!

 

[Flerbizky]

The max is a little... flexible. Budgets are not set in stone! Having said that, I think £1,760 would have to be a real top-end system.

I've also thought that if it's not going to give me a massive boost now, I could always shove 1GB memory in now, and worry about upgrading it later...

And the 10K RPM S-ATA drives are seriously expensive!

In that case - and this IS merely a suggestion - Your shopping bag kind Sir

The 2 10Krpm can be replaced with 2 7200rpm 300 gig disks for the same amount. And you'll need to add 15 pounds to get the Asus board instead..

And the 19" AG is one fine display...

[edit]Just noted you want XP Pro, not home. May I ask why ? - The only thing it really lacks is the ability to join a Domain...[/edit]

 

[Event]

Bah! AIW 9800SE? Go for the AIW 9800Pro. It is about 260-270USD

 

[Flerbizky]

Bah! AIW 9800SE? Go for the AIW 9800Pro. It is about 260-270USD

You did notice that this will not be a gaming system. Picture and video editing, and Giles would see no speed gains from running a Pro compared to the SE..

And it was merely a suggestion, nothing more... (And I secretly suspect Giles for not having buried hin inner fanboy all that deep )

 

[GilesGuthrie]

In that case - and this IS merely a suggestion - Your shopping bag kind Sir


The 2 10Krpm can be replaced with 2 7200rpm 300 gig disks for the same amount. And you'll need to add 15 pounds to get the Asus board instead..

And the 19" AG is one fine display...

[edit]Just noted you want XP Pro, not home. May I ask why ? - The only thing it really lacks is the ability to join a Domain...[/edit]

That's a very nice shopping bag you've got there. And most of the bits are a lot cheaper than those I'd seen so far - especially the disks. Wouldn't need the DVD-ROM drive, since the current system (which is to become a server) has a DVD-ROM and CD-RW, so would "donate" its DVD-ROM (and sound card, speakers, printer, flatbed scanner, film scanner) to the new machine.

With regard to the XP Home/Pro debate, I was under the impression that file system security was also deleted from XP Home? It's going to be a multi-user system with different users getting different rights. Plus, since I'm going to put 2K/2K3 server on my current machine, I may actually create a domain anyway, for the purposes of securing the network from internal threats (i.e. wife and daughter) in th future!

When it comes to being an Intel fanboy, you have to remember that I bought my first PC in 1996 (a Pentium-200 with 32MB RAM), when you could get other processors from AMD and Cyrix, except they were garbage. Then, when I bought my second PC in 2000 (PIII-1GHz with 256MB RAM), AMD had merged with Cyrix, but the Intel processors were still demonstrably superior - if more expensive. Now I think that AMD have really genuinely caught up to Intel, so there's not really much point in having a prejudice. It's almost as if the processor type has no relevance.

But then I'm saying this because I really haven't been following the hardware market at all recently. At work we're constrained to HP/Compaq stuff (great servers, poor desktops, woeful laptops), and I really haven't been reading the magazines lately. I am, I have to admit, no longer in the loop!

 

[Flerbizky]

That's a very nice shopping bag you've got there.

👍

With regard to the XP Home/Pro debate, I was under the impression that file system security was also deleted from XP Home? It's going to be a multi-user system with different users getting different rights. Plus, since I'm going to put 2K/2K3 server on my current machine, I may actually create a domain anyway, for the purposes of securing the network from internal threats (i.e. wife and daughter) in th future!

You're partly right about the filesystem. What Home lacks is the ability to Encrypt it's filesystem - something that's very useful, on a laptop. Also, it only supports one CPU as opposed to 2 in Pro. And a few more minor things which I should probably dig up...

Regarding the Domain, I am, as I've said earlier, an IT Admin/Idiot pro, and I can't be 4rsed to run a domain at home (1 W2K server, 4 XP Pro clients). Unless you're planning on pushing updates onto your clients, running advanced login scripts based on policys, there's really no reason to do so...

When it comes to being an Intel fanboy, you have to remember that I bought my first PC in 1996 (a Pentium-200 with 32MB RAM),

Mine was in 1992. A 486DX/33, 4 megs of SDRAM and a nice ET4000 Gfx card with 1 meg of RAM. Man that thing ROCKED - 3D Studio R4 newer ran so fast 👍

So the comment on your fanboyism, I was only kidding

But then I'm saying this because I really haven't been following the hardware market at all recently. At work we're constrained to HP/Compaq stuff (great servers, poor desktops, woeful laptops), and I really haven't been reading the magazines lately. I am, I have to admit, no longer in the loop!

I've started to wonder how to get out of the loop... I need another job..

Oh well... All good to those who wait I guess...

 

[GilesGuthrie]

You're partly right about the filesystem. What Home lacks is the ability to Encrypt it's filesystem - something that's very useful, on a laptop. Also, it only supports one CPU as opposed to 2 in Pro. And a few more minor things which I should probably dig up...

You sent me looking for it, and I found it eventually in an MS article entitled "Choosing between Home and Professional". Unfortunately for the bank balance, the ability to restrict access to apps, files and system permissions is pretty much critical.

Regarding the Domain, I am, as I've said earlier, an IT Admin/Idiot pro, and I can't be 4rsed to run a domain at home (1 W2K server, 4 XP Pro clients). Unless you're planning on pushing updates onto your clients, running advanced login scripts based on policys, there's really no reason to do so...

If I were to do it, it wouldn't be to save me time! It would be as a technical exercise as much as anything.

I've started to wonder how to get out of the loop... I need another job..

Oh well... All good to those who wait I guess...

I moved into Project Management. Seems a relatively natural progression for intelligent IT people who are thinking of moving away from the technological edge.

 

[Flerbizky]

You sent me looking for it, and I found it eventually in an MS article entitled "Choosing between Home and Professional". Unfortunately for the bank balance, the ability to restrict access to apps, files and system permissions is pretty much critical.

Makes sense.. And the prices I found was from the first online shop I found in the UK, so you can probably find them cheaper with a little research, I'm sure the XP Pro will fit your budget

If I were to do it, it wouldn't be to save me time! It would be as a technical exercise as much as anything.

That's another way of doing it. I'm just fed up with Domains when I get home from wrrk

I moved into Project Management. Seems a relatively natural progression for intelligent IT people who are thinking of moving away from the technological edge.

I just need to get away from this place...