Well Done PD - another genius decision!

[John Smith UK]

So we will have all noticed that in their wisdom Polyphony have made another genius decision I believe after a particularly set of ugly races in on their championships

They have turned the damage up to 10 it seems. The slightest contact sees damage to the cars be it a bumper or wheel, any moderate to heavy collision leaves your car flashing red and with no performance but your still in a race potentially now trying to drive a wounded car for ever increasing periods while everyone else drives past

You would have thought they would do this for their flagship events as I would imagine the drivers their take it seriously, but why roll it out to every event. Yet again PD drop the ball - in part because their game engine is so old it probably can’t do anything different but why punish everyone for the actions of a few.

Now in daily races if someone passes you, give them a nudge into anything and they will be handicapped for anything up to 30 seconds, possibly longer.

The game just seems to be on a coward spiral - perhaps Ken will retire soon and give others the chance to resurrect this franchise

 

[eran0004]

Well, don’t crash the car.

 

[TumeK5]

Do we need another thread?

 

[Dave A]

Well, don’t crash the car.

It's other people nudging you into the barries that's the biggest problem.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Well, don’t crash the car.

Good luck getting everyone else who plays online onboard with your plan.
It’s not always that easy. You can’t control what other people do, when they decide to or why. If they want to hit you they will, the only difference is now they get to have even more fun ruining yours.
Even in single player it’s common for AI to cause collisions and intentionally hit others, seemingly from the way they are programmed to behave.

 

[eran0004]

It's other people nudging you into the barries that's the biggest problem.

Sure, but that’ll always be a problem. Unless Sony AI finds a way to develop a machine learning race steward that can accurately hand out penalties.

Perhaps that’s the hidden purpose of Sport Mode, to generate a huge amount of incident data in order to train the steward AI? 🤔

 

[John Smith UK]

Sure, but that’ll always be a problem. Unless Sony AI finds a way to develop a machine learning race steward that can accurately hand out penalties.

Perhaps that’s the hidden purpose of Sport Mode, to generate a huge amount of incident data in order to train the steward AI? 🤔

I hear you but Polyphonys game engine is 20 years old, it’s code on code on code, they said GT Sport was all new when it wasn’t - why do I bring this up - because the game engine can’t run the scripts required to enforce a fair play policy and PD have largely given up trying to make it work in the here and now.

this is a consequence of poor dev work

Sure, but that’ll always be a problem. Unless Sony AI finds a way to develop a machine learning race steward that can accurately hand out penalties.

Perhaps that’s the hidden purpose of Sport Mode, to generate a huge amount of incident data in order to train the steward AI? 🤔

But when does that arrive, plus did they not gather enough from GT Sport?

 

[eran0004]

I hear you but Polyphonys game engine is 20 years old, it’s code on code on code, they said GT Sport was all new when it wasn’t - why do I bring this up - because the game engine can’t run the scripts required to enforce a fair play policy and PD have largely given up trying to make it work in the here and now.

this is a consequence of poor dev work

What makes you believe the game engine is 20 years old and why would it be incapable of “running scripts”?

And more importantly, what scripts are required to enforce a fair play policy?

Is there any example of “good dev work”, where a racing game developer (or any online multiplayer game developer) has successfully managed to enforce fair play?

 

[watto79]

I prefer the new system as it's much more likely to punish dirty driving. Nudging someone into a wall was always possible but now the dirty driver may pick up damage too, and lose put in the long run. This is a big improvement in my opinion.

Not sure who Ken is or how their retiring would change anything.

 

[John Smith UK]

What makes you believe the game engine is 20 years old and why would it be incapable of “running scripts”?

And more importantly, what scripts are required to enforce a fair play policy?

Is there any example of “good dev work”, where a racing game developer (or any online multiplayer game developer) has successfully managed to enforce fair play?

Worked for Sony all All over the world until recently..

a script is a set of code designed to run within the main game code, so for example a fair play script could look at an incident and determine certain things - as an example - you should never really brake in a race unless to avoid an accident or to get around a corner.

So I’m in front of you halfway done the main straight you are slipstreaming, I brake suddenly and you hit me - that should attract a penalty to me - the script runs independent of the main code to determine what happened, I braked, should I have done that yes no, you hit me, was it avoidable yes no, was the collision caused by me braking outside of a braking zone - yes no…. Do you see what I mean it’s a set of what ifs or scenarios in a racing game that the game plays out while the main race is happening.

imagine for every possible penalty scenario how many scripts you need to make the judgements - it’s lots. For that you need super slick game engine code - it’s doable but because the game engine has its origins from a while ago it isn’t super slick - if we had an truly all new state of the art engine then this is achievable - so you could add the necessary code now but the game might have to take a hit in graphics quality or speed or lobbies might only be 8 cars.

what I’m saying is the game could do more if the right development had taken place.

now if you believe I’m wrong thats fine it’s my opinion - I respect that fact many won’t agree with me, I just see what this game could be with the right work happening… you might say maybe that is Happening in the background - I would push back and say why didn’t the game launch as state of the art - years in development for a rehash of GT5/6 and GTSport is what I see.. I just believe GT 7 should have been a truly epic game

 

[Dave A]

Sure, but that’ll always be a problem. Unless Sony AI finds a way to develop a machine learning race steward that can accurately hand out penalties.

Perhaps that’s the hidden purpose of Sport Mode, to generate a huge amount of incident data in order to train the steward AI? 🤔

Yes, but it doesn't have to be as big a problem for those who get punted and end up dealing with a hyper damaged car for around 30 seconds until itmagically repairs itself as a result while the person who did the punting gets to speed off into the sunset. It's just another poorly implemented system.

I don't recall thinking before "gee, this game really needs to go to town on making impact with walls damage your car super easilly". This is nothing more than a poor reaction to people wall riding. There are far better ways to solve that issue.

 

[Monkdapunk]

I really like the extra damage because it's making me a better driver by punishing my bad habits and forcing me to improve. I don't like the damage in daily races though because as if it wasn't bad enough with people ramming and screwing you over now you get bad damage on top of it while they drive away. It would be cool but people ruin it.

 

[eran0004]

Worked for Sony all All over the world until recently..

In what capacity? And how does that make you know what game engine PD is using and how old it is?

a script is a set of code designed to run within the main game code, so for example a fair play script could look at an incident and determine certain things - as an example - you should never really brake in a race unless to avoid an accident or to get around a corner.

And how would the algorithm determine what a safe braking distance is or whether or not there’s a legitimate reason to avoid a potential accident?

So I’m in front of you halfway done the main straight you are slipstreaming, I brake suddenly and you hit me - that should attract a penalty to me - the script runs independent of the main code to determine what happened, I braked, should I have done that yes no, you hit me, was it avoidable yes no, was the collision caused by me braking outside of a braking zone - yes no….

So basically you propose that PD implement the exact kind of script they are already using for penalties in the game, and which we know doesn’t work because manually trying to script every kind of incident scenario is an impossible task. The only plausible way to get a machine to somewhat reliably hand out penalties the way you’d expect from real race stewards is by machine learning AI.

Do you see what I mean it’s a set of what ifs or scenarios in a racing game that the game plays out while the main race is happening.

Yes, a very limited set of scenarios for a very limited type of incidents and with a very limited capacity to actually determine what has happened and who’s at fault.

imagine for every possible penalty scenario how many scripts you need to make the judgements - it’s lots.

My point exactly. And that’s why writing these kinds of scripts is an impossible task.

For that you need super slick game engine code

No, you need about a billion man-hours for the coding and another ten billion man-hours for the testing of the code.

it’s doable but because the game engine has its origins from a while ago it isn’t super slick - if we had an truly all new state of the art engine then this is achievable - so you could add the necessary code now but the game might have to take a hit in graphics quality or speed or lobbies might only be 8 cars.

What makes you think any of that?

what I’m saying is the game could do more if the right development had taken place.

Are there any actual examples of “the right development” that allows for this kind of fair play enforcement or have all online multiplayer game developers opted for “the wrong development”?

 

[hardvibes]

Yesterday in two B races (Dragon Trail) I was in the first few positions, minding my own business, and all of the sudden I got pushed from behind and slammed around the track. As a result the engine was damaged, my car wouldn't accelerate and I ended up last or close to last.

I saw the gamertags of the players who did this to me, and at the end of the races I noticed they didn't lose any positions. So if they ever got a penalty + mechanical damage for what they did, it didn't really matter. I was the only one penalized.

Oh yeah this is so much fun.

 

[pedrocor]

It's other people nudging you into the barries that's the biggest problem.

Hum... like in real life?

You would have thought they would do this for their flagship events as I would imagine the drivers their take it seriously, but why roll it out to every event. Yet again PD drop the ball - in part because their game engine is so old it probably can’t do anything different but why punish everyone for the actions of a few.

Now in daily races if someone passes you, give them a nudge into anything and they will be handicapped for anything up to 30 seconds, possibly longer.

Shockingly that's how real world works also... not only the things go wrong for douches but also the the people they mess with...
Sometimes the people that didn't do anything wrong are indeed the ones who take the most damage.

The only thing you can complain is about 20 yo AI, that crash you stupidly, at daily races it's the way it is, as it is in other games.

 

[KaiB]

Worked for Sony all All over the world until recently..

a script is a set of code designed to run within the main game code, so for example a fair play script could look at an incident and determine certain things - as an example - you should never really brake in a race unless to avoid an accident or to get around a corner.

So I’m in front of you halfway done the main straight you are slipstreaming, I brake suddenly and you hit me - that should attract a penalty to me - the script runs independent of the main code to determine what happened, I braked, should I have done that yes no, you hit me, was it avoidable yes no, was the collision caused by me braking outside of a braking zone - yes no…. Do you see what I mean it’s a set of what ifs or scenarios in a racing game that the game plays out while the main race is happening.

imagine for every possible penalty scenario how many scripts you need to make the judgements - it’s lots. For that you need super slick game engine code - it’s doable but because the game engine has its origins from a while ago it isn’t super slick - if we had an truly all new state of the art engine then this is achievable - so you could add the necessary code now but the game might have to take a hit in graphics quality or speed or lobbies might only be 8 cars.

what I’m saying is the game could do more if the right development had taken place.

now if you believe I’m wrong thats fine it’s my opinion - I respect that fact many won’t agree with me, I just see what this game could be with the right work happening… you might say maybe that is Happening in the background - I would push back and say why didn’t the game launch as state of the art - years in development for a rehash of GT5/6 and GTSport is what I see.. I just believe GT 7 should have been a truly epic game

You clearely dont seems to have the clue, i think even most people dont cause the best skill people have nowadays its to complain.

I think many people will be surprised if they really stop to think for a couple seconds...

GT/Gt7 - have penaltys for contact, time and safety rating can be afected.., sometimes if theres a lot of caos its not accurate but its there, you have track limits that you have to lift if you are aware you cross the track limit or youll be penalized, you have pit entry/exit penaltys, damage also more real with the update.

Lets put Assetto Corsa Competizione has comparation, wich is a "real" SIM with only 2 category of cars..

In ACC If theres contact both or any driver that suffer a minor contact will be penalised in the safety rating no matter ho rammed or got rammed all people get penalised, theres track limit penaltys after 3 warnings, and pit entry/exit and pit speed and thats it.

So now people can judge, Gt its a simcade with masses in mind, ACC a pure SIM.

GT have a pretty complex penalty system compared to a real SIM and its one of the most played SIMs in the market...

I barely see complains about people geting mechanical damage in ACC..., and believe me in every race theres massive crashes even in top splits so...

What are people really compaining about?

 

[hardvibes]

Hum... like in real life?




Shockingly that's how real world works also... not only the things go wrong for douches but also the the people they mess with...
Sometimes the people that didn't do anything wrong are indeed the ones who take the most damage.

The only thing you can complain is about 20 yo AI, that crash you stupidly, at daily races it's the way it is, as it is in other games.

I don't think anybody said it doesn't. He meant that there are no real consequences in-race for the players who cause these accidents in GT. He wrote: "while the person who did the punting gets to speed off into the sunset". And that's what happens.
This is a game. It should calculate/take into account everything to adjudicate penalties.
You caused the accident?
The car you bumped went off road?
The car you bumped crashed into a wall/guardrail?
The car you bumped significantly lost performance? (the ability to steer, acceleration issues due to engine damage)
The car you bumped lost X positions?

---> More time penalty for you
---> Your car ends up at the back of the pack.

Does this sound logical or am I just crazy to think people should get what they deserve?
If you ruin my race why should you go unpunished? Between the so called time penalties and mechanical damage I haven't really seen justice yet.

 

[Marckyboy]

You crash a car, it gets damaged, what's the problem? Think we have been spoilt by being able to crash and drive away before now, anything to encourage proper driving is good by me. By all means Introduce an arcade mode again for people who prefer that but I'm all for the SIM aspects personally.

 

[KaiB]

I don't think anybody said it doesn't. He meant that there are no real consequences in-race for the players who cause these accidents in GT. He wrote: "while the person who did the punting gets to speed off into the sunset". And that's what happens.
This is a game. It should calculate/take into account everything to adjudicate penalties.
You caused the accident?
The car you bumped went off road?
The car you bumped crashed into a wall/guardrail?
The car you bumped significantly lost performance? (the ability to steer, acceleration issues due to engine damage)
The car you bumped lost X positions?

---> More time penalty for you
---> Your car ends up at the back of the pack.

Does this sound logical or am I just crazy to think people should get what they deserve?
If you ruin my race why should you go unpunished? Between the so called time penalties and mechanical damage I haven't really seen justice yet.

That have a name in real racing..., stewarts.
That also have a name in virtual racing games..., private leagues and oficial live events also have Stewarts.

This to say that theres no single game that i know that have a perfect penalty(damage/rules) system.

Search for GT7 private leagues in your country and join one, youll learn after a season that incidents are very frequent and people get really agressive cause of stewarts decisions...

Even stewarts that have acess to replays and diferent angles sometimes mess the decisions, and they have time to make decisions and can delay the decisions even after the race its over...

People get lost in their minds...
The best thing to avoid being "judge" by any system in racing its to pratice and improve driving skills and awareness so people can race higher ranked people or top divisions in private leagues.
Learn to ignore dirty and toxic drivers and do not fall in the trap of revenge, its easier to say not easier to apply in the heat of the moment.

Other than that most of the frustations and desires of perfect systems will be a loss of time and energy cause that doesnt exist and never will...

The only thing that can be easely done its to fine tune the damage detection model so small contacts can have a bit less impact in drivability of the cars...

 

[ziggedzag]

Unfortunately punishment is the only thing that some people understand. IMHO minor damage should last the entire race, and any significant impact with a barrier or other car should end your race. Overly aggressive drivers want to win races, if you remove their ability to win while driving aggressively they'll either stop racing that way, or stop racing altogether... both wins in my view.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Overly aggressive drivers want to win races, if you remove their ability to win while driving aggressively they'll either stop racing that way, or stop racing altogether... both wins in my view.

So…basically turn a racing game where the goal is to finish 1st place (or have fastest lap) into a weekend track day event where you all just parade your cars around a track with speed limits and no passing rules enforced? That’s a win for a racing game?

 

[ziggedzag]

So…basically turn a racing game where the goal is to finish 1st place (or have fastest lap) into a weekend track day event where you all just parade your cars around a track with speed limits and no passing rules enforced? That’s a win for a racing game?

Funny, seems like every race in real life is how I described. Damage that lasts till the end of the race, and bad drivers losing their rides. I guess some people are capable of winning races without being an ahole and some aren't. If you aren't, then stop ruining everyone else's race.

 

[kraftwerkd]

because the game engine can’t run the scripts required to enforce a fair play policy and PD have largely given up trying to make it work in the here and now.

Uhhh they rewrote the scripting engine entirely for GT7. It's in the CEDEC presentation. Keep trying though.

 

[Nathan88]

The damage modelling now means I don’t dive bomb as often. Even against AI. It’s better to hold back and make a clean pass. That’s the sort of decision making you make in real racing. Avoiding damage is far more important than gaining half a second.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Funny, seems like every race in real life is how I described. Damage that lasts till the end of the race, and bad drivers losing their rides. I guess some people are capable of winning races without being an ahole and some aren't. If you aren't, then stop ruining everyone else's race.

This isn’t real life though, it is just a video game. No-one wants true real life damage modeling in GT as it wouldn’t be an enjoyable experience after the first couple days and the franchise would quickly suffer and almost certainly fail. I don’t condone or support those who intentionally hit others or cause wrecks, but at the end of the day, this is a video game and even in real life racing there is plenty of incidental contact in basically all forms of automobile racing that doesn’t result in the amount of damage or the way PD has recently implemented in GT7. Intentionally hitting others is not part of racing, but incidental contact is, whether you like it or not, and how it is modeled in GT7 currently isn’t any more realistic than before nor is it more fun and quite honestly lacks value in certain situations.

 

[ziggedzag]

This isn’t real life though, it is just a video game. No-one wants true real life damage modeling in GT as it wouldn’t be an enjoyable experience after the first couple days and the franchise would quickly suffer and almost certainly fail. I don’t condone or support those who intentionally hit others or cause wrecks, but at the end of the day, this is a video game and even in real life racing there is plenty of incidental contact in basically all forms of automobile racing that doesn’t result in the amount of damage or the way PD has recently implemented in GT7. Intentionally hitting others is not part of racing, but incidental contact is, whether you like it or not, and how it is modeled in GT7 currently isn’t any more realistic than before nor is it more fun and quite honestly lacks value in certain situations.

True, incidental contact happens all the time in real races, and their effects last the entire length of the race too. Unfortunately, without damage too many people drive too aggressively and beyond their capabilities. We'll see if harsher damage penalties get them under control. If they quit playing because of it... not a problem for me. In fact the community on the whole is better off if they do.

Gran Turismo "The Real Driving Simulator". Sounds like Need For Speed is more your style.

 

[Nebuc72]

This isn’t real life though, it is just a video game. No-one wants true real life damage modeling in GT

I certainly do. If I am playing something that aims to simulate racing, I want the bad parts of racing to have an in game impact as much as the good parts. To me, side by side action is a lot more thrilling when you know the two of you are battling it out whilst balancing it on the edge, knowing a mistake can take you both out of contention.

I'm not so much into being able to bounce off both each other and the walls and drive away perfectly fine. Despite clearly trying, GT7 might not do everything as well as a sim does, but if this is somewhere that GT7 can match them - I don't see why it shouldn't. As someone said earlier, you don't see people complaining that crashes damage their performance when racing in ACC or any other game, so to me it's a weird take that GT should somehow get away with a lack of punishment for crashing.

It resets itself after 30 odd seconds anyway, that should be forgiving enough.

 

[Dave A]

Hum... like in real life?




Shockingly that's how real world works also... not only the things go wrong for douches but also the the people they mess with...
Sometimes the people that didn't do anything wrong are indeed the ones who take the most damage.

The only thing you can complain is about 20 yo AI, that crash you stupidly, at daily races it's the way it is, as it is in other games.

And yet, in real life your car doesn't repair itself 30 seconds later. There are some things from real life that work well in a game and some that don't. And some things not in real life that work well in a game and some that don't. You'll never please everyone, but I stand by my opinion that the current system is not well balanced. But then most of the game isn't no surprises I guess.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

True, incidental contact happens all the time in real races, and their effects last the entire length of the race too. Unfortunately, without damage too many people drive too aggressively and beyond their capabilities. We'll see if harsher damage penalties get them under control. If they quit playing because of it... not a problem for me. In fact the community on the whole is better off if they do.

Gran Turismo "The Real Driving Simulator". Sounds like Need For Speed is more your style.

Harsher penalties do need applied to those who intentionally hit others or cause wrecks, THAT is the solution. However I don’t think PD have the desire (or maybe capability with current resources/personnel?) to make this work as it should with the effect this change in damage was likely intended to have. Instead they take the fast and easy route and just dial up the damage across the board, not apply it in a way that actually solves any issues or makes the game better. The problem isn’t necessarily that it’s not realistic, although that is part of it, it’s more how a 15mph sideswipe of a safety barrier (not even solid concrete wall) where you barely touch it for a few milliseconds does the same amount of damage as getting t-boned by another car at say 40mph. Their current scale for how damage works makes no sense as in the real world I can assure the damage would be MUCH less severe from rubbing a safety barrier than getting rammed by another car.

To your point, if this were the real driving simulator we’d all be paying for gas, tires, maintenance and travel/lodging to and from race events etc. There is a line that needs to be maintained between true realism and simulation in a video game for it to be enjoyable to play and sustain a company. To make a true real driving simulator would be a fruitless effort as not many would play that and there would be no sustainable profitability for a company there.

Need For Speed has some good games, but the problem isn’t that I’m “playing the wrong game” it’s that PD screwed up their damage model, it didn’t solve anything really and now it’s more of an annoyance than a benefit or increase of gaming enjoyment for many people.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

I certainly do. If I am playing something that aims to simulate racing, I want the bad parts of racing to have an in game impact as much as the good parts. To me, side by side action is a lot more thrilling when you know the two of you are battling it out whilst balancing it on the edge, knowing a mistake can take you both out of contention.

I'm not so much into being able to bounce off both each other and the walls and drive away perfectly fine. Despite clearly trying, GT7 might not do everything as well as a sim does, but if this is somewhere that GT7 can match them - I don't see why it shouldn't. As someone said earlier, you don't see people complaining that crashes damage their performance when racing in ACC or any other game, so to me it's a weird take that GT should somehow get away with a lack of punishment for crashing.

It resets itself after 30 odd seconds anyway, that should be forgiving enough.

So you would enjoy if they forced you to pay for all your fuel, maintenance, repairs, travel/lodging to and from events and everything else real racing and vehicle ownership entails? I truly doubt you would enjoy that. The vast majority of your game time would be doing monotonous and annoying tasks and you’d likely lose interest real fast. There is a balance that needs to be maintained between realism and video games for various obvious reasons. The way PD implemented the new damage modeling is highly flawed which has already been documented by many users. Everyone has their personal preferences as to how much realism a game should have, and what they like/dislike, but the new way damage is applied is neither realistic, enjoyable nor effectively drives improvement.