Well Done PD - another genius decision!

[Nebuc72]

So you would enjoy if they forced you to pay for all your fuel, maintenance, repairs, travel/lodging to and from events and everything else real racing and vehicle ownership entails? I truly doubt you would enjoy that. The vast majority of your game time would be doing monotonous and annoying tasks and you’d likely lose interest real fast. There is a balance that needs to be maintained between realism and video games for various obvious reasons. The way PD implemented the new damage modeling is highly flawed which has already been documented by many users. Everyone has their personal preferences as to how much realism a game should have, and what they like/dislike, but the new way damage is applied is neither realistic, enjoyable nor effectively drives improvement.

Incredible strawman. I said simulate racing, meaning what I'm doing on the track. You can fabricate and create points about things that surround racing all you want, but that's just being disingenuous because we both know we're talking about the actual racing and not the management. You can do better than that.

I agree the implementation isn't perfect and certainly has flaws and needs fine tuning. I do however think the result is more or less where it should be. I see people iterate a lot, including you earlier, that no matter what speed you hit a wall at, the damage is the same - but this is something I'm pretty sure isn't true - from what I have seen, if you tap a barrier at 15mph or tap one at 150mph, the damage will be far more noticeable in the higher speed or more severe collision.

Now, do I think this should be changed to show this better? Absolutely. If they want to include damage, you need to be able to tell how severe it is through the UI, not by "is my car now undriveable or not".

 

[BangsMcCoy]

Incredible strawman. I said simulate racing, meaning what I'm doing on the track. You can fabricate and create points about things that surround racing all you want, but that's just being disingenuous because we both know we're talking about the actual racing and not the management. You can do better than that.

I agree the implementation isn't perfect and certainly has flaws and needs fine tuning. I do however think the result is more or less where it should be. I see people iterate a lot, including you earlier, that no matter what speed you hit a wall at, the damage is the same - but this is something I'm pretty sure isn't true - from what I have seen, if you tap a barrier at 15mph or tap one at 150mph, the damage will be far more noticeable in the higher speed or more severe collision.

Now, do I think this should be changed to show this better? Absolutely. If they want to include damage, you need to be able to tell how severe it is through the UI, not by "is my car now undriveable or not".

No strawman here. You said “I certainly do. If I am playing something that aims to simulate racing, I want the bad parts of racing to have an in game impact as much as the good parts.”. The ownership responsibilities, maintenance duties, parts costs, travel and everything else is part of racing. Next time be more specific and say what you mean instead of getting upset that someone simply responded to exactly what you said and you don’t like it.

It‘s not that I don’t want damage in the game, because I do, it’s that since the update and how it was implemented in the game is highly flawed and results in more annoyances than it resolved overall. The cons outweigh the pros. It’s worse than before. It is not more realistic, it’s not realistic at all. There is no difference in terms of significance of damage done to your vehicle, regardless of speed if you touch the wall or another car the resulting damage effect is the same. The only difference is at higher speed you’re more likely to hit more parts of your car than at lower speed, so it appears you have more damage because you have more parts flashing red, but it still lasts just as long and impacts your steering all the same. At lower speeds you may only have 1 wheel flashing red but at higher speed you probably have both flashing red, but it still results in a pull to one direction that will magically disappear on you with no warning. In real life if you barely touch a safety barrier at low speed you’ll likely only have cosmetic damage, visible damage to the body but not significant damage to your steering. And your steering certainly doesn’t just magically repair itself mid lap with no warning which means you are now no longer correcting a steering issue but instead actually steering your car off the track or into another car where just a second ago you were trying to avoid that by correcting your steering.

This whole damage magically repairing itself with no warning is downright bad. If that’s how they want damage to work there needs to be a visual indicator showing when the damage will repair itself so you can correct/adjust your steering input appropriately so that you don’t unintentionally cause another wreck when it changes your steering on you. Also the whole throwing your steering off from lightly brushing a wall at 15mph is an exaggeration far more often than not. Getting rear ended by AI that causes you to lose power/acceleration while they drive off as is if nothing happened is not a good damage model by any means. How this plays out in lobbies between humans ultimately depends on the individuals, but for those that want to be real jerks and intentionally wreck this is a huge advantage for them now. They don’t care about winning, they’re version of fun is wreckfest and ruining fun for others trying to race.

 

[Nebuc72]

No strawman here. You said “I certainly do. If I am playing something that aims to simulate racing, I want the bad parts of racing to have an in game impact as much as the good parts.”. The ownership responsibilities, maintenance duties, parts costs, travel and everything else is part of racing. Next time be more specific and say what you mean instead of getting upset that someone simply responded to exactly what you said and you don’t like it.

It‘s not that I don’t want damage in the game, because I do, it’s that since the update and how it was implemented in the game is highly flawed and results in more annoyances than it resolved overall. The cons outweigh the pros. It’s worse than before. It is not more realistic, it’s not realistic at all. There is no difference in terms of significance of damage done to your vehicle, regardless of speed if you touch the wall or another car the resulting damage effect is the same. The only difference is at higher speed you’re more likely to hit more parts of your car than at lower speed, so it appears you have more damage because you have more parts flashing red, but it still lasts just as long and impacts your steering all the same. At lower speeds you may only have 1 wheel flashing red but at higher speed you probably have both flashing red, but it still results in a pull to one direction that will magically disappear on you with no warning. In real life if you barely touch a safety barrier at low speed you’ll likely only have cosmetic damage, visible damage to the body but not significant damage to your steering. And your steering certainly doesn’t just magically repair itself mid lap with no warning which means you are now no longer correcting a steering issue but instead actually steering your car off the track or into another car where just a second ago you were trying to avoid that by correcting your steering.

This whole damage magically repairing itself with no warning is downright bad. If that’s how they want damage to work there needs to be a visual indicator showing when the damage will repair itself so you can correct/adjust your steering input appropriately so that you don’t unintentionally cause another wreck when it changes your steering on you. Also the whole throwing your steering off from lightly brushing a wall at 15mph is an exaggeration far more often than not. Getting rear ended by AI that causes you to lose power/acceleration while they drive off as is if nothing happened is not a good damage model by any means. How this plays out in lobbies between humans ultimately depends on the individuals, but for those that want to be real jerks and intentionally wreck this is a huge advantage for them now. They don’t care about winning, they’re version of fun is wreckfest and ruining fun for others trying to race.

I'm not wasting my time arguing with somebody who can't stop themselves putting words in my mouth. You know what the discussion is about, evidenced by the rest of your post - you are clearly capable of having a discussion without giving yourself random one-ups.

I hope the rest of your day is as pleasant as you have been

 

[ziggedzag]

No strawman here. You said “I certainly do. If I am playing something that aims to simulate racing, I want the bad parts of racing to have an in game impact as much as the good parts.”. The ownership responsibilities, maintenance duties, parts costs, travel and everything else is part of racing.

It's "The Real Driving Simulator" not the real racing simulator. No one wants to play the real owner simulator, or the real mechanic simulator, or the real travel booker simulator. Well, I won't say no one, I'm sure there is one sadistic mf out there into that stuff.

 

[BangsMcCoy]

I'm not wasting my time arguing with somebody who can't stop themselves putting words in my mouth. You know what the discussion is about, evidenced by the rest of your post - you are clearly capable of having a discussion without giving yourself random one-ups.

I hope the rest of your day is as pleasant as you have been

Yes, let’s stop here, but let the record show I didn’t put any words in your mouth, I directly quoted and replied to exactly what you said with a question and statements of my own.

Thank you, you as well.

It's "The Real Driving Simulator" not the real racing simulator. No one wants to play the real owner simulator, or the real mechanic simulator, or the real travel booker simulator. Well, I won't say no one, I'm sure there is one sadistic mf out there into that stuff.

While it is correct that Gran Turismo is marketed as “The Real Driving Simulator” this comment has no relevance to the comment you quoted of me, it is not the discussion we were having that I was responding directly to. If you read the comment I quoted and was responding to you would know that. It was specifically stated as “I certainly do. If I am playing something that aims to simulate racing, I want the bad parts of racing to have an in game impact as much as the good parts.”. Racing, was used, not driving simulation. What I mentioned are all part of racing in the real world. That’s the difference between driving and racing. Driving is specific to the act of operating a vehicle. Racing encompasses all aspects of the sport/profession (or hobby for most), operating the vehicle is just a part of it.
I’m not here to argue for the sake of arguing so out of respect for other members and to keep this from going off topic, we’ll stop here.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

I've been on the "GT7 sucks yadda yadda" bandwagon for a while, but I can't agree with this.

The damage model improved the overall quality of the racing in the game. Because now more and more people will try to avoid contact at all costs, and this can only be good, not bad.

However, this method, or any other, will never stop other players from ramming you off the track if they want to. We simply have to accept this or hope for PD to improve the AI stewards massively.

Before the update:
-Rammer rams you off the track, you crash, he continues racing. Both don't have damaged cars but potentially have penalties.
After the update:
-Its the exact same as before but now both cars get damage...

I can to some extent agree though that the damage model itself is quite overexagerated. The tiniest touch to any car or wall, even at below 100kph should not make you lose engine power or the car wanting to turn right or left (in dramatic fashion) on its own.

Its not perfect, but its IMO going in the right direction. This game is striving to replicate real racing, damage is and should be a part of it. So I am not against this at all, way better than the cars being ping pong balls that don't get damaged whatsoever no matter the crash.
Actually, this even discourages rammers a bit more because if they miss to hit the car they want, and instead hit a wall, they now have a damaged car and can't get to you at all, where instead they would still have a capable fast car to catch up and do the ramming.

 

[hardvibes]

After the update:
-Its the exact same as before but now both cars get damage...

Yeah sure you can get damage...but do you get "enough" damage?
Not always.

Today I accidentally hit hard the car in front of me at the last chicane of Dragon Trail reverse (the guy hit the brakes when I wasn't expecting it). He went off road and hit the wall in front of him. As a result his car couldn't accelerate properly. To show him I was sorry I stayed behind him for the rest of the race.
And you know what?
1) I only got a little understeer (red front bumper in the hud) that didn't really cause me any trouble. Should have been heavy damage at the speed I was coming
2) I didn't get ANY time penalty for what I did

And as I wrote on page 1 I also experienced the same but as the car being hit. The two grievers kept their podium positions. This is very frustrating when they ruin your race.

Well Done PD - another genius decision!

So we will have all noticed that in their wisdom Polyphony have made another genius decision I believe after a particularly set of ugly races in on their championships They have turned the damage up to 10 it seems. The slightest contact sees damage to the cars be it a bumper or wheel, any...

www.gtplanet.net

So to me it is clear this system is flawed. Heavy damage isn't guaranteed. Penalties aren't guaranteed.
Of course nobody expects something perfect. But something decent would be great. It's very far from it.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Yeah sure you can get damage...but do you get "enough" damage?
Not always.

I understand your point of view, but again, like you pointed out, previously not always would the rammer get a penalty either.

This is more like the fault of the damage model itself, and not the fact that damage exists in the races, because it should exist, and this is the point I'm arguing for. Long should already be the days where no damage is in a game like Gran Turismo.

They just have to improve its model... as well as the penalty model.

As for your case, again, the penalty model at fault, and this has been an issue since... ever, even back in GT Sport. The damage that he got, which was obviously superior to yours was because he had you crash into him and then he hit a wall, so yeah, his car is going to be worse than yours. And this was also an accident, since as you stated, it wasn't on purpose. So you probably did try to take some kind of evasive maneuver or tried to have your car under control as soon as you hit him. A rammer would just charge head on and would not care about his car receiving damage, he would keep his foot on the throttle and also get his car against a wall depending on where it happens obviously.

It's not good still, not even close, but its still better than what it was before with no damage whatsoever. And again, the fact that people will now have a big reason to try their hardest not to make contact which is going to improve the racing online.

 

[Dave A]

It's not good still, not even close, but its still better than what it was before with no damage whatsoever. And again, the fact that people will now have a big reason to try their hardest not to make contact which is going to improve the racing online.

I dissagree, arguably the worst thing about the damage model is that the car starts to turn left or right, or wobble for a bit, and then it magically fixes itself in an instant some time later. This can quite easilly lead to another crash, especially if it happens whilst going round a corner at speed or whilst overtaking/being overtaken. With the increased damage sensetivity, this russian roulette of when your car will go from a steering mess to suddenly fine is happening far more frequently.

Additionally as @hardvibes said, you can smash into another car and receive very minor damage, but you can glance against a wall and receive lots. I oversteered at Tokyo coming out of a tight corner and my rear bumper glanced the barrier. For the next 30 seconds or so, my car was pulling massively to the left. That's not realistic, that's not fun, that's not teaching anyone to be a better driver. I've tested impacts with other cars and you can hammer into them pretty damn hard before you get close to the same levels of damage.

What they've done is chucked a grenade at a relatively simple problem, wall riding.

All they needed to do was have a counter that could read the length of time a players car remained in contact with a wall and reference that to their speed, and if it was sufficient enough to constitute wall riding, apply a penalty then. The longer and faster the wall ride, the greater the penalty. It's not rocket science.

 

[OldandSlow]

I dissagree, arguably the worst thing about the damage model is that the car starts to turn left or right, or wobble for a bit, and then it magically fixes itself in an instant some time later. This can quite easilly lead to another crash, especially if it happens whilst going round a corner at speed or whilst overtaking/being overtaken. With the increased damage sensetivity, this russian roulette of when you car will go from a steering mess to suddenly fine is happening far more frequently.

Additionally as @hardvibes said, you can smash into another car and erceive very minor damage, but you can glance against a wall and receive lots. I oversteered at Tokyo coming out of a tight corner and my rear bumper glanced the barrier. For the next 30 seconds or so, my car was pulling massively to the left. That's not realistic, that's not fun, that's not teaching anyone to be a better driver. I've tested impacts with other cars and you can hammer into them pretty damn hard before you get close to the same levels of damage.

What they've done is chucked a grenade at a relatively simple problem, wall riding.

All they needed to do was have a counter that could read the length of time aplayers car remained in contact with a wall and at reference that to their speed, and if it was sufficient enough to constitute wall rideing, apply a penalty then. The longer and faster the wall ride, the greaterthe penalty. It's not rocket science.

PD has swatted a fly with a sledgehammer.

 

[hardvibes]

What they've done is chucked a grenade at a relatively simple problem, wall riding.

All they needed to do was have a counter that could read the length of time aplayers car remained in contact with a wall and at reference that to their speed, and if it was sufficient enough to constitute wall rideing, apply a penalty then. The longer and faster the wall ride, the greaterthe penalty. It's not rocket science.

Absolutely. I don't remember exactly when Turn 10 took action against wall riders but it was somewhere between FM4 and FM6.
As soon as you hit the wall and try to wall ride, your speed decreases significantly. Simple and effective.
PD are just complicating things. I understand they want to add mechanical damage to Sport Mode, but they sold us that wall riding solution the wrong way.

Again, they should tone down mechanical damage OR divide the player base in Sport Mode: races with and without damage on. Let them choose. And not just have player rating removed in Race A.

We are not playing iRacing. Many of us just want to have fun. This thing isn't helping me to play better. I'm not more cautious...I'm afraid of anything. Not just the players who could rear end me, but also afraid of screwing up on my own (a good example is that damn narrow chicane at Dragon Trail reverse in this week's Race B). A little hit can compromise the entire race.
I know someone will try and use the good ol' "Do It Yourself" argument (in this case user created lobbies) to defend what's going on. No guys, it's not up to me, it's up to PD to bring players together to have fun.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

I dissagree, arguably the worst thing about the damage model is that the car starts to turn left or right, or wobble for a bit, and then it magically fixes itself in an instant some time later. This can quite easilly lead to another crash, especially if it happens whilst going round a corner at speed or whilst overtaking/being overtaken. With the increased damage sensetivity, this russian roulette of when your car will go from a steering mess to suddenly fine is happening far more frequently.

Additionally as @hardvibes said, you can smash into another car and receive very minor damage, but you can glance against a wall and receive lots. I oversteered at Tokyo coming out of a tight corner and my rear bumper glanced the barrier. For the next 30 seconds or so, my car was pulling massively to the left. That's not realistic, that's not fun, that's not teaching anyone to be a better driver. I've tested impacts with other cars and you can hammer into them pretty damn hard before you get close to the same levels of damage.

What they've done is chucked a grenade at a relatively simple problem, wall riding.

All they needed to do was have a counter that could read the length of time a players car remained in contact with a wall and reference that to their speed, and if it was sufficient enough to constitute wall riding, apply a penalty then. The longer and faster the wall ride, the greater the penalty. It's not rocket science.

As I said, their damage model simply has to be reworked... And I've mentioned how exagerated it is.

About teaching to be a better driver, I'm not talking about driving while the car is damaged, because the car being "undriveable" is the intention, but driving to the point that you have to avoid contact as much as possible unlike before where we had no damage. If some newbie driver knows he can receive no damage while hitting a wall or another car while going wheel to wheel with him, he will likely not care about improving himself much to avoid said contact. With this? Anyone is definitely going to drive in a way that's more careful and not like ping pong on other cars and walls.. again, aside from the rammers, we can't do anything about them... would be nice to have a system where they are banned automatically after causing a crash on purpose, but that seems far-fetched.

PS: Also, is this damage on ALL races? Aren't they just on daily B and C? The ones that actually affect DR/SR? I wouldn't mind having races, in this case, daily A which doesn't affect DR/SR, to have a no damage model since in this way players who don't want to have the annoyance of having their car damaged can have their own fun in the non-DR/SR race.
This is so PD-like... Even if they implement something good, there's always so many flaws...

 

[Dave A]

Even if they implement something good, there's always so many flaws...

There are so many flaws becasue they've not implemented it well.

All of my points aren't based on if it will be good if you theorteically changed x or y, they're based on how it actually is right now. It affects single player races as well those ones online.

As I said, it's not realistic, it's not fun and it's not a teaching aid. It's just a stuplidly flawed change they've made as a knee jerk reaction to people cheating the sport mode races due to wall riding.

Sure, it's not beyond the realms of being changed sufficiently that it could become a good system, but as it is, much like many other aspects of the game, highly unbalanced and flawed.

They didn't need to ramp up the damage to such a degree the slightest contact with a barried cripples your cars steering for however many seconds. They didn't need to make your car magically repair itself without warning and they didn't need completley overlook how this system can be abused by punters or ruin the single player enjoyment in some races more than they already have.

It pains me to say, but at this point it's just typical PD.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

There are so many flaws becasue they've not implemented it well.

No, my point is the cars getting damaged, that's good to be implemented, but the execution is just terrible.

Cars should be damaged during races, but the tiniest 60kph wall/car contact making the car accelerate less (engine problem for whatever reason) and turn right/left on its own is overly exagerated.
There's damage from 1 to 10, PD just went to 10 without even trying the middle ground first to balance things out and improve from there.

And yes, I just confirmed, all races aside from custom and lobbies (because we can option it) have this damage model. Then, yeah, it does kinda suck, especially for lower DR drivers where contact is made a lot more often.

Hopefully they improve this on the end of the month update.

 

[Dave A]

No, my point is the cars getting damaged, that's good to be implemented, but the execution is just terrible.

Cars should be damaged during races, but the tiniest 60kph wall/car contact making the car accelerate less (engine problem for whatever reason) and turn right/left on its own is overly exagerated.
There's damage from 1 to 10, PD just went to 10 without even trying the middle ground first to balance things out and improve from there.

And yes, I just confirmed, all races aside from custom and lobbies (because we can option it) have this damage model. Then, yeah, it does kinda suck, especially for lower DR drivers where contact is made a lot more often.

Hopefully they improve this on the end of the month update.

Ok, fair enough, I misunderstood what you were getting at. I'm in far more agreement with what you're actually saying.

 

[wheelhp]

While it is correct that Gran Turismo is marketed as “The Real Driving Simulator” this comment has no relevance to the comment you quoted of me, it is not the discussion we were having that I was responding directly to. If you read the comment I quoted and was responding to you would know that. It was specifically stated as “I certainly do. If I am playing something that aims to simulate racing, I want the bad parts of racing to have an in game impact as much as the good parts.”. Racing, was used, not driving simulation.

If you ask anyone that plays iracing... they'll outright tell you GT7 is a pile of fake junk. There's no racing simulation nor any driving simulation to yell praise about here. When that's the case there's little sense to make the already un-fun game a chore. They might as well fully lean into arcade racing territory with nice graphics than continue to fake realism so poorly. And if you're arguing "realism is always more fun", strong nope. What's fun about saving up 400+ million for every car in the game if it takes you longer much longer than 3 months to do that legitimately? Compared to games where the economy is fair and content is not deliberately locked behind a paywall?