Well, my parents just bought a 300C...

[Anderton Prime]

When misniformation is told as fact, the speaker is and looks like an idiot.

All I did was put the stats in with my description of the car. Then I told everyone where I got them. This isn't so much telling misinformation as fact, merely including actual published figures along with their sources, and letting the reader decide for himself. Which you have done, quite immaturely I might add.

Am I to understand that you are calling me an idiot again now? I don't give a rat's ass who you know on GTP, you won't be calling me an idiot simply because I posted figures you deem invalid. Grow up.

The vehicle has 400 horsepower and you're off on how it's boringly styled?

Unbelievably, there should be about a million things more important than styling when it comes to buying a car.

Yet unfortunately most people who can afford any car they want look for styling first. You see, you pick a few possible cars because you like the way they LOOK, then you investigate and find how well they PERFORM, then you check the QUALITY, etc. Cars are almost ALWAYS chosen based on looks. Most people aren't buying a car to pretend they're race car drivers.

The GTO is a dull GM product, in a long line of dull GM products, particularly from Pontiac. I don't buy re-badged cars from other countries, like the Cadillac Catera or this GTO.

But the Car and Driver guys DID agree with me that the car looks like a Grand Am, so you'll probably come back by denouncing the magazine again and telling me everything they write is untrue. It still won't change the fact that the GTO's looks suck.

And my mom would never buy that car, because it is NOT A LUXURY CAR. In no way does it compare to the 300C. And she couldn't care less about impressing boys who like to go fast.

 

[1X83Z]

Yet unfortunately most people who can afford any car they want look for styling first. You see, you pick a few possible cars because you like the way they LOOK, then you investigate and find how well they PERFORM, then you check the QUALITY, etc. Cars are almost ALWAYS chosen based on looks. Most people aren't buying a car to pretend they're race car drivers.

I hate to do this, but I'm going to first go personal experience then go statistical fact.

Personal experience: I can afford any car I want. Right now, I'm looking seriously at a 1995 Volvo 850 T-5R. It's a yellow box on wheels. I don't think I could care any less what cars look like.

Statistical fact: Our research at Nissan shows without any doubt that styling is the VERY LAST thing consumers look for before actually purchasing. First is price, then spec, then safety, then style. And when we tossed brand identity in there, it ranked second, after price (gotta love Americans). People who ACTUALLY BUY CARS don't care about style. Kids on the Internet love raving about style, but it's a whole different ballgame when you're actually cutting the check.

But the Car and Driver guys DID agree with me that the car looks like a Grand Am, so you'll probably come back by denouncing the magazine again and telling me everything they write is untrue. It still won't change the fact that the GTO's looks suck.

No - you agreed with Car & Driver. See skip's post, I've said this before too:

"What is funny, is that many musclecar 'legends' were rather plebian-looking for their time (simply some small aero add-ons to high-volume sellers) yet today they are looked upon as legends. Consider the:

- Buick Grand National
- Syclone/Typhoon
- Impala SS (B-body Impala, not the FWD one)
- Original GTO (relative of the Tempest, with stripes and a tach in the hood)

So, be prepared to kick yourself in 10 years."

It's wholly true.

And my mom would never buy that car, because it is NOT A LUXURY CAR. In no way does it compare to the 300C. And she couldn't care less about impressing boys who like to go fast.

Why isn't it a luxury car? It's got as much spec as a 300C without any options. Standard dual power seats, traction control, leather, Blaupunkt 6-CD, keyless entry, automatic headlights, steering wheel audio controls... and 400 horsepower.

 

[Anderton Prime]

I don't make the rules, but the GTO isn't a luxury car. Maybe you can do some research and make up some polls to determine why this is.

The fact that those muscle cars are looked at as legends nowadays doesn't change the fact that their styling is bland. You're crossing over from styling to status. Even if the GTO is looked at as a legend in 10 years, it will still look the same, that is, bland and plain. By achieving legendary status, you may think this affects the way people look at a car's styling, but it's just an illusion.

My parents were the ones "cutting the check," and they were looking for a car that was attractive and good value for the money. Don't give me this baloney about people considering looks last. Why would car companies even bother hiring designers to make better looking cars in the first place? Why don't BMWs, Ferraris, or any other high-end cars look just like Kias? Because once you get above a certain price range, looks become much more important. Looks may not be the most important thing to most buyers, but I think the way a car looks is pretty important to some buyers, like my parents and their friends, all of whom consider the way a car looks when buying.

 

[Azuremen]

You pay for the distinctive look.

At M5, he don't qoute completely false information, and he certainly didn't tout it as fact. He gave us the source, which is pretty reasonable, as the reader can check the validity.

Secondly... 95% of people buying cars care about how it looks, hence why the GTO has sold like crap.

Furthermore... M5, you are being the more offensive in this so called "argument." Anderton has not been blatantly irritating with MASSIVE font size and what not.

Anyways, how are the back seats in the 300C? Do the small windows make ya feel closed in or anything?

 

[Anderton Prime]

Anyways, how are the back seats in the 300C? Do the small windows make ya feel closed in or anything?

Thanks for getting the thread back on topic. The back seat is pretty spacious. The high doors and short windows do make it feel like you're sitting really low, but I wouldn't say they're claustrophobic. I hear the Magnum's sloping roofline does produce this effect, though. Lots of legroom in the 300C, and almost as comfortable as up front. But I never spend any time in the back seat anyway. I want to be in the driver's seat all the time!!

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Secondly... 95% of people buying cars care about how it looks, hence why the GTO has sold like crap.

I would think its more about the demand not being there, the reason they pulled the Camaro.

 

[Anderton Prime]

I would think its more about the demand not being there, the reason they pulled the Camaro.

I'm not so sure. Take a car like the Subaru Impreza WRX. They sell pretty good, considering they cater to a "specialty" market and cost a pretty penny. I would think the GTO is in the same category, but at least there's something to the WRX. The GTO is a Pontiac, the makers of the Aztek and the industry leaders in Rubbermaid-style body cladding. And just when Pontiac announces they're coming out with a kick-ass performance car, they release it with one of the most boring body styles on the market today. Heck, the Saturn Ion Redline looks at least as good as the GTO!

 

[GTrackd02]

Heck, the Saturn Ion Redline looks at least as good as the GTO!

You take that back right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now granted the GTO is a little understated in the styling department, but an Ion......jeez.....lol
I personaly like the GTO for what it is(kinda pricy though) And 05's are lookin a bit nicer..plus 400/400 in the power department does'nt sound too bad to me either.....

 

[Azuremen]

Pontiac is being hurt by its name... I don't like to touch them with a 10 ft pole.

Seriously, the GTO is bland.. it looks like a Grand Prix with 2 doors... now if they had nice styling like the new Mustang (I dislike Ford almost as much as Pontiac, so no fanboyism) it might be a bit more popular. Despite its impressive power and what not, teh GTO just needs something to make it a bit more noticeable...

 

[JNasty4G63]

The problem with the GTO is that its old. I mean, the Monaro that its based on is like 4 years old. So, by the time we got it over here, it was almost to the point of needing replacing. Its a good start, they are getting the name out there at least. And, the new '05 model with the 6.0L LS2 is a nice step in the right direction. Then, when they revise the cars, the "new" GTO should be much better and more modern looking. We hope, but who knows.

And, I don't exactly consider the WRX a "specialty" product. I know more people with them that just like the car for what it is. That being a nice comfortabe, winter-capable sedan that the family can fit in. Sure, we all like to believe that its this supreme rally racer, and everyone that buys them is an enthusiast. But, that is hardly the case. Think about whats in its price range. For $25k, its hard to think of a better car, regardless of what your intentions of using it is. That to me, is why you see so many.

The GTO, on the other hand is more of a "specialty" than the WRX, by a lot, if you ask me. Those RWD coupes like that are a hard sell these days. Especially when they cost $35k or so. Thats a big jump from WRX pricing. And, when you limit the space inside, limit the use of the car in adverse climates because of the RWD, and limit the fuel economy because of the big thirsty engine, you lose a lot of those "casual" buyers. The Mustang sells so well becaues the V6 model looks so similar to the GT, that it ends up being the dominant seller. If you can have the looks of a nice muscle car, but not have to deal with the price jump and quirks of the V8 by getting the V6, all the better to the average customer. Same thing goes for the WRX. I personally see WAY more RS Imprezas than I do WRX. Same look and feel, just without the extra stuff to deal with by having the big turbo motor. But, the GTO has no lesser model. Its all or nothing. That to me is why the GTO doesn't sell. The looks aren't obviously that bad. I mean, people always compare it to the Grand Prix. And, it does look a whole lot like the GP. But, the GP doesn't exactly sit on dealer lots. You see them everywhere, so people obviously don't hate the look. Just my thoughts.

Hilg

 

[Jay]

In my opinion the 2005 Pontiac GTO is a great car, its alittle plain in styling but still muscular, now with the 400hp LS2 engine and 6 speed trans with all its options, I dont understand why people dont like them.
Price is a complaint, what do you guys pay for them? $35000? If you convert that to Australian dollars (roughly $44000 AUS) that would be a bargin for us. We pay a base price of $60000 Australian dollars for a Monaro with still the LS1 engine and no added options. The only Monaros we can get with the LS2 is the HSV's and they cost us about $90000 Australian dollars.

 

[Anderton Prime]

The Mustang sells so well becaues the V6 model looks so similar to the GT, that it ends up being the dominant seller. If you can have the looks of a nice muscle car, but not have to deal with the price jump and quirks of the V8 by getting the V6, all the better to the average customer. Same thing goes for the WRX. I personally see WAY more RS Imprezas than I do WRX. Same look and feel, just without the extra stuff to deal with by having the big turbo motor. But, the GTO has no lesser model. Its all or nothing. That to me is why the GTO doesn't sell. The looks aren't obviously that bad. I mean, people always compare it to the Grand Prix. And, it does look a whole lot like the GP. But, the GP doesn't exactly sit on dealer lots. You see them everywhere, so people obviously don't hate the look. Just my thoughts.

Hilg

Better not tell that to M5Power...according to him, the way a car looks is very unimportant to buyers. I happen to disagree, but he's got a lot of surveys to back him up.

And he works for Nissan, a fact we've all been reminded of about a hundred times.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Better not tell that to M5Power...according to him, the way a car looks is very unimportant to buyers. I happen to disagree, but he's got a lot of surveys to back him up.

Well, I think what he was saying was a little misunderstood. I think that people do care about looks, its just not at the top of the list. And, I agree mostly. I mean, hell, a car could be the greatest looking car out there, but if its crappy, slow, unreliable, or all of the above, I'm not getting one.

We were talking about something similar with the Volvo C70 in another thread. Its a great looking coupe, very sexy. But, it has some flaws, and thus it never sold well. Its a Volvo, people don't think sexy coupes when they think Volvo. It wasn't real fast, only had the 5cyl turbo available, nothing bigger. And, its major downfall was that it was priced very close to the M3. If I had the choice, as much as I like Volvo and the looks of the C70, I'm getting an M3 every time. Looks matter, but only to an extent.

And, I didn't mean what I said about the Mustang to sound like I was talking about looks. I meant, you can drive a Mustang, and not have to deal with the GT stuff. Not really the looks of the car I was referring to, more the car as a whole. You can have a fun, small, sporty coupe without having to deal with all the extra stuff you have to deal with by getting a V8 GT. Many people that get Mustangs get them for similar reasons. They don't care that the GT is faster, or that it handles better, or things like that. They just want to "drive a Mustang". So, getting one with a V6 is fine.

Hilg

 

[skip0110]

To elaborate on what JNasty is saying, the GTO is like a 'halo' car for the Pontiac brand. Just like the Vette for Chevy and the Viper for Dodge (and the same realation the top-dog Cobra-R has to the lesser 'Stangs). These cars don't sell in huge numbers, but thats not the point. The good image of these cars brings class to the name and buyers to the brand.

They might not be selling in huge numbers themselves, but they work by drawing cutomers into the showrooms.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Well, for some reason people continue to buy Pontiacs, particularly Grand Ams, which I find to be some of the ugliest cars on the road (except the GT, that's somewhat acceptable). I guess you could make a case that it's the reliability of the 3800 series engine that keeps people buying them, but my mom just sold her '97 Bonneville and I never found it to be particularly luxurious or particularly reliable / problem free.

And the GTO can't really be considered in the same league as the Cobra or the Mustang, because it's been off the North American market for so long. People don't know much about it, and then they see it on a commercial or in a magazine, and think, "That's it?! Looks like my Grand Prix!"

JNasty I agree with you about the Mustang. I think that Ford really worked hard to create a Mustang that LOOKS GOOD, so people would buy them without complaining about the crappy styling of the previous model. With the older model, you had to get the GT if you wanted looks. Now, even the v6 looks great, and you don't need to worry about fuel consumption or engine repair costs, etc. You can just focus on the fact that you're driving a Mustang, and it LOOKS GOOD.

 

[JNasty4G63]

To elaborate on what JNasty is saying, the GTO is like a 'halo' car for the Pontiac brand.....They might not be selling in huge numbers themselves, but they work by drawing cutomers into the showrooms.

Exactly the point. Sure, we enthusiasts can sit around and nit pick it here, and poke fun there. But, we aren't the ones that matter. Its Joe Schmoe that sees one on the street, or in a commercail on TV, or in a movie, or what not. Those people, the ones who don't know what the car is, are the ones you worry about appealing to if your GM. Thats why you see it looking all tough and flashy in the commercials. Make the car look, sound, and appear tough and fast, and people will take note. Then, when they are in looking at it and inspecting closer, they might notice the new G6, or the GXP, or whatever else those chaps sell at Pontiac these days.

Hell, I fell prey to this exact tactic the other week. I went to check out the new C6 Plastic Rocket with my fiance. Looks fine, by the way. Never been much of a Vette fan, but its nice. But, on the way off the lot, I let out a yell, Stewie style. "WHAT THE DEUCE!?!?!" I was totally struck by how weirdly appealing the Malibu Maxx is. Funny looking at first in the mags and on TV. But once up close, its very nice. Granted, I have a soft spot for wagons, but it really is nice. I was sucked in. I went looking for the muscle and flash, and ended up looking at a WAGON!!! Good cripes, what have I done??? Am I that old??? I came over all cold sweaty. Had to rip a big #11 out the lot with her Denali just to make sure I still knew how.

Well, for some reason people continue to buy Pontiacs, particularly Grand Ams, which I find to be some of the ugliest cars on the road (except the GT, that's somewhat acceptable). I guess you could make a case that it's the reliability of the 3800 series engine that keeps people buying them

Exactly. Cars like that aren't made for flash and dash. They're just people movers. Grand Am, Taurus, Impala, Accord, Camry, they're all the same. Sure, some better in some areas than others. But looking drop dead gorgeous is surely not a requirement. These will be driven by people who just want a nice looking car that will get them to and from work and to pick up the kids worry free. Sure, we enthusiast mock and laugh at the Grand Ams fake hood scoops, or the Taurus because it looks like an egg, or the Impala because....well, because its ugly as all get out. But, the big wigs at the company making them don't care. It would be like Cabillac asking a bunch of 16yr olds what they think should be on the next Escalade. They would almost certainly say something on the line of "Big 24" spinners, 5000 watt systems, air bag suspension, yada yada yada." They don't care, 16yr olds aren't the target market. We laugh, but they laugh with us, cause they know we mean nothing.

Hilg

 

[1X83Z]

The Volvo C70 is damn good-looking.

 

[JNasty4G63]

The Volvo C70 is damn good-looking.

Amen to that. 👍 Sexy sexy sexy. Too bad all the other bits can't quite get anything else right. 👎

Hilg

 

[skip0110]

Very pretty indeed, but front wheel drive? That spoils the whole thing.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Exactly. Cars like that aren't made for flash and dash. They're just people movers. Grand Am, Taurus, Impala, Accord, Camry, they're all the same. Sure, some better in some areas than others. But looking drop dead gorgeous is surely not a requirement. These will be driven by people who just want a nice looking car that will get them to and from work and to pick up the kids worry free. Sure, we enthusiast mock and laugh at the Grand Ams fake hood scoops, or the Taurus because it looks like an egg, or the Impala because....well, because its ugly as all get out. But, the big wigs at the company making them don't care. It would be like Cabillac asking a bunch of 16yr olds what they think should be on the next Escalade. They would almost certainly say something on the line of "Big 24" spinners, 5000 watt systems, air bag suspension, yada yada yada." They don't care, 16yr olds aren't the target market. We laugh, but they laugh with us, cause they know we mean nothing.

Hilg

Yes but my original point was that the more money people are willing to spend on a car, the more important styling is. M5Power said that even though he can afford any car he wants he cares very little about styling, then went on to use results from his Nissan surveys to somehow show that car buyers care very little about styling. My point is that this is true in the $20,000-$30,000 range, but as you move past this price range styling becomes much more important.

That, and I wouldn't consider Nissan buyers to be luxury car owners, and therefore don't consider the results of a Nissan survey to be either unbiased or representative of the larger population.

 

[///M-Spec]

I drove an LS1 GTO before I bought the 330. It only had 3 problems.

Weight: 3850 lbs.
Tires: P245/45ZR17.
Stability control: Can't be turned entirely off.

Everything else about that car was superb, especially at the asking price. All it needed was to shed 400 lbs and some real tires on it.

Still hard to beat its nearest competitor, the G35 Coupe, though.

300C: My director drives one. Nice. 👍


M

 

[JNasty4G63]

Yes but my original point was that the more money people are willing to spend on a car, the more important styling is.......My point is that this is true in the $20,000-$30,000 range, but as you move past this price range styling becomes much more important.

See, again, I agree with both of you to an extent. Yes, the more you spend on a car, the more you want it to do all things right. If you're spending a big chunk of $$$ on a car, you don't want to always be thinking "Gee, I really love this car, BUT...." But, again, I also agree with M5P about styling not being AS important as the other features on a car.

Take the new BMW 7 series. Just about everyone hated the looks of them when they first came out. Being the first cars of the "Bangle Era" it was our first real taste of what was to come. But, even with the incredible ammount of "bad press" about the styling, so to speak, the car sold like hot cakes, and still does. They don't have them at the BMW dealer here for more than a couple days. I drive by it every day on the way to work. The longest I've ever seen a new one on the lot was about 5 days. Its the car as a whole that people are interested in. Sure, the looks on the 7 are unusual. But, the rest of the car is so fantastic, many people didn't care.

So, I do agree with you that the styling and design of a car is important. No one wants to drive an ugly car. But, when the rest of the car is so good, many people will overlook it. I mean, call it wrong and unjust that I say this, but I think the new Ferrari 612 Scag is very, VERY ugly. But, you can damn well be sure I would drive one if I had the means. Its a Ferrari, its got the be a hell of a car, for sure. But, looks just aren't its strong point.

Hilg

 

[1X83Z]

Amen to that. 👍 Sexy sexy sexy. Too bad all the other bits can't quite get anything else right. 👎

Well, its internals do date from the 1993 Volvo 850, a vehicle which is now in its third generation since 1993. I'd get a C70 but I can't justify it.

I'll always love the story about the lead designer of the C70 who, several weeks after it debuted, took it to a trendy hotel in southern California to be valet-parked; rather than parking it the attendant left it in the front next to a Ferrari. The lead designer remarked that he knew he was on to something right then.

All it needed was to shed 400 lbs and some real tires on it.

Now that it's got the extra 50 horsepower, do you think it'll be a more serious drivers' car? Any idiot knows it could accelerate with the best of them before but it body rolled more than class competiton before; I'm thinking even if it still does the surplus of power makes up for it.

 

[///M-Spec]

Now that it's got the extra 50 horsepower, do you think it'll be a more serious drivers' car? Any idiot knows it could accelerate with the best of them before but it body rolled more than class competiton before; I'm thinking even if it still does the surplus of power makes up for it.

Not really. I don't think that's the GTO's mission. It is much more a big bruiser GT than a real sports car. In that mission, the GTO succeeds wonderfully.

But in order for it to take it to cars like the G35 Sport Coupe and 330Ci ZHP it would need the stuff I mentioned before, PLUS spring/shock rate changes, new anti-dive/anti-squat geometry, tweaked brakes and better steering rack with more feedback. But for less than 40 grand fully loaded you can't really complain... especially since it would keep up easily with an M3 or 996 in a straight line which is what most its customers will care about.


M