What exactly is different in Racing vs Qualifying in Sport Mode (aka "online" vs "offline" physics)

  • Thread starter nuu1212
  • 38 comments
  • 4,658 views

nuu1212

(Banned)
282
Germany
Germany
A recent thread made it clear that there is much confusion about this - as usual due to a lack of "official" information.

Obviously, it makes no sense that they would use different code for online vs offline or race vs quali
The only options for a difference are thus

1. Framerate
but I see no framerate drops
2. Lag
but it should not affect your own physics sim
3. Dirty air effects
definitely a thing
4. Dirty tires/temperature
a sure thing, but unknown when/how it is in effect

5. random parameters in online races?
The physics themwelves don't change. Some parameters fluctuate and may change the way the car feels, but the principles stay the same.
Can you be more specific here?

Any onther thoughts/experiences?
 
1,695
Australia
Aussie
Tassie_tiger
I would suggest that there isn't any "official" information regarding this because there really isn't anything noteworthy to say.

Here is my take on things.
Playing offline, you are playing directly from data on the HDD.
Playing online in an Open Lobby, you are connected via the PSN and the lobby owner is essentially the server, meaning you are now experiencing the game via a distant connection, and a connection that is directly related to the compatibility between you and the host, and also relying on the bandwidth and NAT type of the host.
Playing online in Sport Mode, you are connected via the PSN to the GT servers, meaning you are also experiencing the game via a distant connection, but one where the host has the best possible parameters, and one where your compatibility to the host is the defining factor.
Other than that, it's the same game.

Some suggest there is a fuel weight reduction in some modes.
I haven't tested this myself, although I question why the fuel gauge wouldn't show it as such, when the game is clearly able to do so.
But there is without question an advantage when the fuel load is reduced in an online lobby.

There can be times when the "Grip Reduction" is changed from Real to Low, which will change the grip physics if you venture off the racing line.

My offline experience is limited, so I'm unsure of tyre temps. in these races.
But there is no question when online, although I don't subscribe to the theory of "cold" tyres on a rolling start or an out lap.

I also don't tend to experience any great variation between qualy or race in Sport Mode.
Other than Race C, with the obvious difference being tyre wear Off vs tyre wear On.
 
1,206
Switzerland
VS & 74 (France)
GT-Alex74
In free pratice mode in Sport mode, the car basically runs with 0 fuel and on brand new tyres all the time. Once you activate fuel depletion, the tank fills up and the car is heavier, and on some it offsets the weight distribution a bit. Tyre wear will also give you an impression of not having the exact same grip even on your first lap, because the tyres consistently wear out a little.

Track temperature is definitely a big thing as well, as tyre temperatures actually matters in GTS (although cold tyres get warmed up pretty quick in general). Back on GT6 in arcade time attack, the air temperature was displayed, and it fluctuated a bit every time you reloaded a new session. I tested all road cars on Trial Mountain in that game, and ended up having to reload the session sometimes to get the same temperature. If my memory doesn't fail me, it was generally between 19°C and 21°C most of the time, but could fall down to 18°C on rare occasions (I think I also saw 22°C a couple times). GT Sport doesn't display that anymore, but I'm pretty sure it's still a thing - and I'm talking for a single meteo slot. Now we also have different meteo slots, each one having its own range of temperatures. In Sport mode free pratice though, I think it's set.

One sure thing is, if you do practice lobbies for leagues or FIAs, at one point you'll probably hear someone saying "this lobby has more / less grip than the other one", which is probably true. I think temperatures are the main factor for that. I don't believe in the lag theories, only framerate drops could actually do something in that regard (because if you have a big drop in framerate, the hardware may be slower to deal with the physics as well), although that's a very visible and unfrequent issue.
 
476
United States
United States
dabz343
It makes no sense to have varying levels of grip without concise explanations from PD. Without clear governance, it leads to conjecture, assumptions and fabrications that ultimately leads to a shrinking player base.

Give us clear parameters on what affects grip PD, stop lurking in the dark...you're beginning to be a little creepy.
 
530
Finland
Finland
I have said this before, probably years ago...



In GT5 or 6 or maybe both, we could set the amount of "quality" a lobby had. 1 star = lowest, 5 stars = highest.

I always had lobbies that I made on 4 or 5 stars. When I went into a lobby with 3 or less I always struggled. I found with the lower stars the cars felt like they had basic physics or handling, they would understeer more. Completely different handling cars would feel similar.

Even in 4 or 5 star lobbies there was a clear change in handling when the frame rate dropped, confirmed by other people in the lobby.

I think the same thing is happening in GTS from when you are alone on track = high quality, to when you are in a weekly or FIA = lower quality also to make the connection more stable.
 
237
Greece
Greece
All of these are placebo effect. Changing physics wont increase the quality of room since your position on the track isnt server sided. Your game sends your car position to server and server shows it to other players how it get. Changing physics cannot increase the quality of server when your car position is client based.

Btw stars in gt5 and gt6 were probably about tick rates which i still dont believe they affect physics since your car position wasnt server sided either.

After all of these i can still be wrong so its best to ask best players if they feel any lap time differences between races.
 
Last edited:
1,716
Finland
Finland
HI-tauer
In free pratice mode in Sport mode, the car basically runs with 0 fuel and on brand new tyres all the time. Once you activate fuel depletion, the tank fills up and the car is heavier, and on some it offsets the weight distribution a bit. Tyre wear will also give you an impression of not having the exact same grip even on your first lap, because the tyres consistently wear out a little.

This is the main reason for the different feel.
 

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
If it’s a sprint, and t1 has a hard braking zone try it with and without warmup, just don’t crash into folks or you’ll lose sr.
Running in a pack you got air issues.
Fuel load.
Trying to run your q line and brake points in race lap 1 might not be a good option.
With tire wear...there’s more to that as well...I ain’t talkin tho...
I think a lot of t1 probs at lower sr stem from a combo of all this and more...
I don’t think it’s a problem with the game more the players experience and attention to the details.
Jmo
 
276
Germany
Bonn
This is the main reason for the different feel.

Yup, that’s also why nobody who’s sane actually PRACTICES in that hotlap mode. It can only serve as a comparison between friends or to see how you fare compared to the top 10.

Usually e.g. for me a FIA quali lap will be about 1.5 seconds slower than the „no physics“ hotlap.
 
530
Finland
Finland
All of these are placebo effect. Changing physics wont increase the quality of room since your position on the track isnt server sided. Your game sends your car position to server and server shows it to other players how it get. Changing physics cannot increase the quality of server when your car position is client based.

Btw stars in gt5 and gt6 were probably about tick rates which i still dont believe they affect physics since your car position wasnt server sided either.

After all of these i can still be wrong so its best to ask best players if they feel any lap time differences between races.


It's 100% not a placebo effect. There is a real change in handling whether it is physics or something else.
 

K3Tuning

(Banned)
649
United States
United States
This is what I found in GT6 but its important enough to take into account in GTS

Arcade mode and Campain did not use the same physics. Arcade had some assist built into it in the background making it on the Arcade side of things where in campain or online the physics did not have those arcade assist. Cars were easier to drive in Arcade mode. The option to take cars out from the garage tho (not Arcade mode) also did not use the Arcade assist.

I figure IT MAY be similar here in Arcade mode
 
Last edited:
1,695
Australia
Aussie
Tassie_tiger
I had a quick look in a lobby regarding the "0 fuel" theory.
I could only trigger the "Initial Fuel" setting by switching on Fuel Depletion.
But, even though I set the initial fuel to 10 Litres it still showed the tank as full when I hit the track.

I need to revisit that and check I didn't make a mistake, and actually test it by doing some driving and compare it to other settings and cross reference with a Sport Mode qualy event.
But I thought it was an interesting observation nonetheless, and worth mentioning.
 
71
England
Lincolnshire
Beevster
Excuse me, But are you not playing on LAN for qualifying laps and Online for races, therefore you will have a ping/latency in a race and you will not in qualifying.

Therefore you will get some form or lag and slight differences in latency if you are online, just like you do in online shooter games, and when you are offline suddenly you are hitting all the headshots, Funny that, it is the same with Gtsport. We are still all connected to a server giving inputs and receiving output and all this adds to the slight delay you feel in the race, which will make is feel different from playing in your time trial laps.
 
237
Greece
Greece
Excuse me, But are you not playing on LAN for qualifying laps and Online for races, therefore you will have a ping/latency in a race and you will not in qualifying.

Therefore you will get some form or lag and slight differences in latency if you are online, just like you do in online shooter games, and when you are offline suddenly you are hitting all the headshots, Funny that, it is the same with Gtsport. We are still all connected to a server giving inputs and receiving output and all this adds to the slight delay you feel in the race, which will make is feel different from playing in your time trial laps.
Your shots and your position is server sided in fps games. Your position in gts is client sided. They are not the same. Therefore its not a good comparision at all.
 
320
Italy
Italy
Gee, now we are again deep in speculation forest and faith battles...

Can someone close that thread already?
People wouldn't speculate if Polyphony actually had public relationships. They never talk with anyone and we know nothing about what Kaz wants to do other than when some newspapers interview him.
 
1,716
Finland
Finland
HI-tauer
Dont see anything weird here. On sport mode quali you are at fuel depletion off, tire wear off fuel tank empty no matter what the cauge shows. And optimal new warm tires.

You enter a race and you get some weight of the fuel. Also just by turning tyre wear on you get some variation to tyre condition. From new cold tyre through optimal to worn. Theres a difference in feel between tyre wear on and off races due to this. I dont think theres any difference in actual physics. I think you are pretty close to "offline" if you have new warmed up tyres and 0 to 1 lap of fuel. Just that you rarely end up with this combination in a race..
 
1,695
Australia
Aussie
Tassie_tiger
I would really like to see some evidence of this "0 fuel" theory, as opposed to people just stating it's a fact.

Here's the thing.
I know from far too many laps with Fuel Deg. On, that there is a marked difference in lap times.
So if we claim a Sport Mode qualy lap tank is empty, and a Race A or B tank is full, that's a significant difference.
Add to that the pressure of racing, where one error can ruin a win, there should be no way that anyone leading a race could replicate their qualy time, or for that matter even get relatively close.
Is this the case?
 
530
Finland
Finland
Not really. Changing a client based stuff will not increase the room quality in any way. Thats the worst explanation it can be.

As I said it is 100% that people are not imagining it, so your particular argument is moot.

If you have done around 600,000 miles between GT5 - GTS and listened to fellow racers, and more recently popular streamers you would know there is a definite change.
 
1,206
Switzerland
VS & 74 (France)
GT-Alex74
I would really like to see some evidence of this "0 fuel" theory, as opposed to people just stating it's a fact.

Here's the thing.
I know from far too many laps with Fuel Deg. On, that there is a marked difference in lap times.
So if we claim a Sport Mode qualy lap tank is empty, and a Race A or B tank is full, that's a significant difference.
Add to that the pressure of racing, where one error can ruin a win, there should be no way that anyone leading a race could replicate their qualy time, or for that matter even get relatively close.
Is this the case?


Actually, the thing is that when fuel depletion is turned off, cars are running on an empty tank. There's no difference of pace between qualifying and race in dailies A and B. I've made race laps better than my qualy lap in race B more than once, while being alone in front.

In fact, you can test this easily : open a lobby on a combo you're used to, and try laps with fuel depletion on 1x and starting fuel level at 100%, then change the lobby to no fuel depletion. In the IGTL races, we use that to simulate a qualy session on low fuel, and the times are definitely faster than the 1st stint times. As the race goes on, lap times are getting closer to qualy times with each stint as people have less fuel with new tyres.

As I said it is 100% that people are not imagining it, so your particular argument is moot.

If you have done around 600,000 miles between GT5 - GTS and listened to fellow racers, and more recently popular streamers you would know there is a definite change.

I heard people complaining about that stuff. All of them were just trying to find an excuse as to why they couldn't keep up with someone. I've never heard that from people faster than me. I've heard that from a good friend who was about my level, and he would bring that point back every time he found himself off my pace. My connection was way worse and I didn't have any issues.

So yes, people are imagining it. Someone brought that theory somewhere at some point and people took that as truth as it reassured them when they just had a bad day. I've probably have done at least as many miles as you did since GT5 as well and I've always found the same car on the same tyres and the same track to behave the same way. Grip changes can happen between lobbies but that's not connection related, and the physics are still the same, you just get slightly varying temperature conditions.
 
237
Greece
Greece
As I said it is 100% that people are not imagining it, so your particular argument is moot.

If you have done around 600,000 miles between GT5 - GTS and listened to fellow racers, and more recently popular streamers you would know there is a definite change.

100% people are not imagining it but they dont have any proof.

That is the most contradicting opinion i have heard for a while.
 
1,695
Australia
Aussie
Tassie_tiger
The 10 litres would only apply if you were to then start a race in the lobby
Nice one. 👍
I was in the lobby for only 5 minutes having a quick look, and by myself, so no race start.
Too obvious.
Cheers. :cheers:

Actually, the thing is that when fuel depletion is turned off, cars are running on an empty tank. There's no difference of pace between qualifying and race in dailies A and B. I've made race laps better than my qualy lap in race B more than once, while being alone in front.

In fact, you can test this easily : open a lobby on a combo you're used to, and try laps with fuel depletion on 1x and starting fuel level at 100%, then change the lobby to no fuel depletion. In the IGTL races, we use that to simulate a qualy session on low fuel, and the times are definitely faster than the 1st stint times. As the race goes on, lap times are getting closer to qualy times with each stint as people have less fuel with new tyres.

Gottcha. 👍
Yeh, I'll give that a test at some stage soon.

I am also fairly sure I've beaten my qualy time while leading a race.
I recall that due to some discussion a while ago, and people suggesting that doing so should update your qualy time.
And that's why I've had a hard time swallowing this theory.

So what we are saying is that people can only use the "fuel" excuse for Race C.
Which, of course, also has Tyre Deg. :P
 
276
Germany
Bonn
People wouldn't speculate if Polyphony actually had public relationships. They never talk with anyone and we know nothing about what Kaz wants to do other than when some newspapers interview him.

Modern PR: Create artificial hype by not saying much and posting hints from time to time. Saves the budget department a lot of money compared to traditional advertising.
 
476
United States
United States
dabz343
Whatever the reason, this cryptic way of designing a game needs to change...you are losing all the good drivers PD...even diehard fans get tired.
 
Last edited:
71
England
Lincolnshire
Beevster
Your shots and your position is server sided in fps games. Your position in gts is client sided. They are not the same. Therefore its not a good comparision at all.

Proof that your right then, Your complaining of input lag in an online match, you saying your controls are not the same, therefore you must have some latency, Just accept it, you are not going to race like your in single player online, Its not rocket science.