What gives? Is The PP system is biased against heavy cars with low downforce?

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xSNAKEx

xSNAKEx

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I cant drive some of my favourite cars because they have Huge PPs but they suck when it comes to performing.

I just don't how they so thoughtlessly chucked in this PP system which governs all the online races but seems unfair. Its a mess. :dunce:


Think about it, as the race progresses what is the only thing that changes?
Available grip. It gets lower and lower. And who gets screwed over by this more and more as soon as the flag drops? The heavy car, with the lower downforce! e.g veyron.

Why? Because the benefits of lightness doesn't waste away, neither does downforce, end even as the tyres are wasting away they are still providing you with benefits, where as the heavy car gets more and more royally screwed, because it never had downforce or lightness to begin with so all it was relying on was the fatter tyres.

In addition not only is the heavy car more negatively affected by more and more worn tyres but it also wears them out faster!

I see this as a huge problem with PPs. It just makes it difficult to drive the type of cars I like competition. And I thought that's what the PP system was supposed to do!

Not to mention even if we totally disregard tyre wear, even in optimal conditions I find the heavier, lower downforce car is STILL slower, even if it has a bigger PP.


Here's my example. I like to use the GTR 09 V spec.

Its got a PP of about 640 on my max tune.

Before the PP was introduced I would race in production car races only and do very well, mos of the time 1st. Now I find most races are PP based and Im doing very poorly in in this car.

Online when I have to compete in 550-600pp races I feel like I have to attach a boulder to the car and sabotage the engine to get it to qualify, and even then I have all these little buzzboxes running rings around me that in the past were easy to beat but now seem impossible.


I thought I was just sucking, I actually don't drive many other cars but I just randomly decided to get into another 600pp car, my stealth nsx, and I was just amazed at how much faster this car is and how much of an easier time you have driving it around!

Two cars, same track same driver. The one with the LOWER PP is actually faster. I mean the stock nsx stealth is 602pp and I can get it around Trial mountain in 1 18, My 640pp GTR I usually manage 1 19. WTF? :scared:

What do you guys think? Is the GTR 09 vpec too slow for its its PP or have I hit the nail on the head with this thread and light car with higher downforce have an unfair advantage?
 
I agree that the PP system is a little out of whack but I enjoy it better than HP limits because if the host throws a 400 hp limit, everyone with pick a car that's extremely light. Then you are even more screwed because they have a pp limit of 500 and you have a pp limit of 400 or less.

Either way, it's the end of the world!
 
I think the PP system is pretty good. There seems to be a few cars that tend to be a bit beter in certain classes. but i have racing full out race cars agains my rx8 (between 500 and 550pp) and it seems pretty fair. The veyron i find doesnt handle all that well to beigin with.
 
What track were you comparing these on? If it had a lot of medium to highspeed corners I would expect the nsx to have the endg. More straighs and low speed corners i bet the gtr would have the edge.
 
Extra weight should decrease your general acceleration and cornering abilities, lower downforce makes just cornering harder.

I believe the main reason for this confusion is that tires no longer apply towards your PP limit, which has very badly messed up the PP system and has allowed for the free use of Racing Softs without worrying about PP limits. :rolleyes: I preferred PP with tyre modifiers... :( Still, what can you do. :guilty:
 
machine4321
What track were you comparing these on? If it had a lot of medium to highspeed corners I would expect the nsx to have the endg. More straighs and low speed corners i bet the gtr would have the edge.
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Ok sure, you get a GTR v spec 09 to 605PP and then I will drive that track with the stealth NSX of the same 605PP and see if you can beat it.

It was trial mountain BTW

better yet lets go online race and see what happens
 
I Wouldnt fully cosign the accuracy of the pp system however i believe they r headed in the right direction acknowledging the power differences and putting something in place for it. I setup pp races and the outcomes r much closer. Anyone know hp does not indicate vehicle performance potential. Really its just a measurment tool. Im not really a fan of the power limiter but it is a down tuning option for quick tuning. Unrealistic but convienient.
 
I've had no problems with the PP system yet. Have won a lot of races already in road cars while other people were using race cars. I usually do 500-580 PP races though, never really higher unless I'm in a good lobby and the owner makes it higher. :P
 
xSNAKEx
Here's my example. I like to use the GTR 09 V spec.

...

Two cars, same track same driver. The one with the LOWER PP is actually faster. I mean the stock nsx stealth is 602pp and I can get it around Trial mountain in 1 18, My 640pp GTR I usually manage 1 19. WTF? :scared:

What do you guys think? Is the GTR 09 vpec too slow for its its PP or have I hit the nail on the head with this thread and light car with higher downforce have an unfair advantage?
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You say you like the GTR - how much have you driven it? Have you done a chassis refresh? Perhaps too many incidents will eventually hamper the car. Maybe the other car is just more suited to your style of driving?
 
RenesisEvo
You say you like the GTR - how much have you driven it? Have you done a chassis refresh? Perhaps too many incidents will eventually hamper the car. Maybe the other car is just more suited to your style of driving?
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Nah man I change the diapers on my GTR often. Car diarrhea isn't the issue.

And I would say the GTR is more suited to my driving style.
The 1 19 I pulled with the stock stealth NSX was just like my second clumblsy lap, and you can do it consitently easily. If i tried I could probably get much lower, and this is with a car that has supposedly 35 less PPs !

Appreciate the advice, but why not just give it a go yourself?. Get a GTR 09 v spec, tune it to your best abilties and see what time you get around trial mountain, all assits except ABS of. See if you can beat 1 19 even with a max tune.

Then get some the get GT500 NSX premium car and see how you go. It shoudl be 605pp. I havent tried the non stealth but it should be the same.

I think you will find it will be faster by many seconds.
 
You would have the opposite argument on a track such as SSR7. Low downforce heavy cars would have to have more BHP to push the PP up to the levels of their lighter counterparts. On a high speed track despite the weight the heavy cars should beat lighter cars every time.
On SSR7 tuned Minolta can easily beat an FGT despite being both heavier and having less downforce.
 
NFSCARBON1
You would have the opposite argument on a track such as SSR7. Low downforce heavy cars would have to have more BHP to push the PP up to the levels of their lighter counterparts. On a high speed track despite the weight the heavy cars should beat lighter cars every time.
On SSR7 tuned Minolta can easily beat an FGT despite being both heavier and having less downforce.
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Im not sure if thats entirely true but Ill take your word for it.

The point is you can reduce the downforce of teh FGT, you will probably keep up with the minolta. If low downforce car has no downforce you cant add it where it doesnt exist...neither can you reduce weight from a car that wont go lower. The point is the PP system should take care of this.

And anyway, What kind of agument are you trying to take. Take the good with the bad? lol...

Who has serioues races on ssr7 anyway? everyone knows thats just for fun. 99.9% of race tracks are going to have corners. I dont see how you can fairly give that sort of shakedown of the situation and call it a day.

Thats like saying "well bro we will take turns sharing the car, you take it every time there is a solar eclipse and I will take it the times there isnt..fair?"
 
The PP system works very well IMO.

That GTR has nearly 900 HP, it should be competing against cars that have 640 PP.

The NSX is what? under 500? Its faster for a reason.
 
This is ridiculous. Its worse than O thought.

I just did a 1 15 with a STandard Zonda LM race car i picked up in the UCD. Completely Stock, 640PP, Same as the Fully tuned GTR, which I cant get to go around anywhere near as fast

btw Im using racing soft, the same as every other car I use.

I think this belongs more in the tuning section.

Augdogg21
Cant compare heavier awd to lighter mr. Too many variables regardless of style and or technique. Imo
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LOl. Cant compare! The whole point of having a PP system is to compare...otherwise what is it for?
 
Poppins
The PP system works very well IMO.

That GTR has nearly 900 HP, it should be competing against cars that have 640 PP.

The NSX is what? under 500? Its faster for a reason.
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What do you mean its faster for a reason. If it is faster its PP should be higher!

One car should not be such drastically faster than another with the same PP, let alone a lower PP.

Are you guys even aware what the PP system is for?

Its not the same type of statistic as Horse power or weight, so then you can attribute the cars speed to something else.... :crazy:
 
xSNAKEx
Im not sure if thats entirely true but Ill take your word for it.

The point is you can reduce the downforce of teh FGT, you will probably keep up with the minolta. If low downforce car has no downforce you cant add it where it doesnt exist...neither can you reduce weight from a car that wont go lower. The point is the PP system should take care of this.

And anyway, What kind of agument are you trying to take. Take the good with the bad? lol...

Who has serioues races on ssr7 anyway? everyone knows thats just for fun. 99.9% of race tracks are going to have corners. I dont see how you can fairly give that sort of shakedown of the situation and call it a day.

Thats like saying "well bro we will take turns sharing the car, you take it every time there is a solar eclipse and I will take it the times there isnt..fair?"
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I just used SSR7 as an example. To an extent the same will happen at La Sarthe with lower PP cars. Just look at something like a Caterham. Compare it to a few muscle cars that have similar PP and on a normal track the Caterham's cornering ability should win it the race. However the extra horsepower will mean muscle cars will be capable of a higher top speed, so on a track with lots of high speed sections the Muscle car should win. Obviously i'm not taking into account driving ability.

What I was trying to say is that the PP system is almost right. If they add tyre choice to it I'd be happy with it. I see where your coming from though, perhaps I chose a bad example!
 
PP system is awesome. Playing GT online every day and learned very well how to use every car for different PP. Exelent system.. sometimes heavy car gets dropt back.. but what do you want? dodge charger with 1500 kg and 500 HP against 900 kg 250 HP cars.. Charger will just smash all cars on straights.. PP system is fair!
 
In a nutshell, a car with loads of downforce will perform better in the turns.

The GTR will handle Low Speed turns and Straightaways.

The NSX will handle Med-High Speed turns and corner entry/exit.

I race a fully tuned GTR online with around.. 650pp and it wins loads of races around the ring.. so obviously... you struggle driving the GTR. Obviously the NSX/Zonda are easier to drive "for you".
 
Today I was in a room with pp 622 (something like that) most people had GT500 cars and there was this guy kicking a%% with his 1500kg M5
 
NFSCARBON1
I just used SSR7 as an example. To an extent the same will happen at La Sarthe with lower PP cars. Just look at something like a Caterham. Compare it to a few muscle cars that have similar PP and on a normal track the Caterham's cornering ability should win it the race. However the extra horsepower will mean muscle cars will be capable of a higher top speed, so on a track with lots of high speed sections the Muscle car should win. Obviously i'm not taking into account driving ability.

What I was trying to say is that the PP system is almost right. If they add tyre choice to it I'd be happy with it. I see where your coming from though, perhaps I chose a bad example!
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Sorry man, I see your point but I think it has little merrit. Do what I did and then have this conversation.

Get a V spec GTR 09 and get the ZOnda LM. Il even send it to you if you want.

If it there was a little bit difference based on driving style, quirks of the car, etc sure that would be fine, but when you drive these two cars, the pagani zona LM car, and then the GTR both with the same PP, to think those cars are meant to represent the same PP or be comparable is just a joke.

I think the GTR got the short end of the stick when it comes to PP here. I dont know why people are saying gt5 is heavily GTR biased, like kaz is meant to make them out like monsters...
 
AliasJR
Today I was in a room with pp 622 (something like that) most people had GT500 cars and there was this guy kicking a%% with his 1500kg M5
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MAybe its not all heavy cars then, maybe its mainly the GTR. Im not sure, but Im curious as to what results other people get with the cars I've mentioned.
 
xSNAKEx
What gives? Is The PP system is biased against heavy cars with low downforce?
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I haven't really played the previous GT games, aside from a handful of minutes with GT3 years back, but it's my understanding that Performance Points (PP) have only been part of the GT series since GT5P, but the concept was around in the form of Performance Index (PI) in Forza Motorsport years earlier, so I reckon that while a familiar concept to some it may be fairly new to many GT players.

The thing about PI/PP is that it's a generalization. It tries to come up with a generalized rating based on how the car might do on an average, typical race course. It doesn't necessarily reflect which cars will have an advantage in specific circumstances. For example, the Veyron has a fairly high PI rating in FM3 because of its high top speed and fast acceleration, but on an average road course it can fairly easily be beaten by cars with lower top speeds and acceleration if those cars perform way better in corners. Conversely, you could take two cars with similar ratings to an oval but one car gets its points more from speed while the other is more about cornering, though cornering ability clearly means a lot less on an oval so the speed car would have the advantage.
 
xSNAKEx
Sorry man, I see your point but I think it has little merrit. Do what I did and then have this conversation.

Get a V spec GTR 09 and get the ZOnda LM. Il even send it to you if you want.

If it there was a little bit difference based on driving style, quirks of the car, etc sure that would be fine, but when you drive these two cars, the pagani zona LM car, and then the GTR both with the same PP, to think those cars are meant to represent the same PP or be comparable is just a joke.

I think the GTR got the short end of the stick when it comes to PP here. I dont know why people are saying gt5 is heavily GTR biased, like kaz is meant to make them out like monsters...
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I will try it. Out of interest are they both on the same tyres?
 
I think the problem is your racing a tuned GTR vs Race cars with much better downforce. I would put money on the race cars every time, especially on a twisty circuit like Trial Mountain. Why not compare something more fair, like bringing an NSX up to 600pp, or a road Zonda up to 600pp.

The pp system does balance out the cars reasonably well, but I wouldn't take a road car and expect it to beat a race car.
 
The PP system doesn't take the track into account. It theoretically will tell you which car is faster given an "average" driver around an "average" track. A car with higher downforce (ie more grip), and lower hp will be faster around a tighter course. If you take the same cars out to a straighter course the results should be different.

No system will ever be perfect, but I think overall, the PP system is better than what we had before.
 
PP are not bad but it still allows some big differences in performance. It seems to be based on power to weight with perhaps a touch of agility thrown in.
The thing is if you tune a cars suspension and end up with making it quicker that wont be reflected in the PP.
So I think eureka! I will use power restrictions in conjunction with PP to ensure a closer field but to my disgust find that you can only use one or the other! I feel that at least if you could utilise both power and PP restrictions we might have a system that works.

The race needs to do a calculation before race start or something where all the cars about to enter have their virtual performance calculated and perhaps start time penalties incurred so that all cars stand a equal chance.

Way it is now I feel I can better control the closeness of the field through power/weight and outlawing race and concept cars from my Production car races. Still not perfect but pretty good. At least this way if one car is better then all the rest you will know why as well, where as with PP it lets all sorts in which makes it all the trickier to find out how to clip the performance of the car that usurps the field.
 

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