What gives? Is The PP system is biased against heavy cars with low downforce?

[PhillGuy]

It depends on the track. A heavy high horse power car will be faster at Daytona then a lighter car with lower HP. It all evens out. Besides the Veyron is not a good track car anyway, and see who wins a SS7.

 

[Poppins]

What do you mean its faster for a reason. If it is faster its PP should be higher!

One car should not be such drastically faster than another with the same PP, let alone a lower PP.

Are you guys even aware what the PP system is for?

Its not the same type of statistic as Horse power or weight, so then you can attribute the cars speed to something else....

So you are saying that since my TVR Speed 12 fully tuned at 667 PP should be able to go around a track faster then your GTR with 640 PP?
Because it cant. But the Speed 12 will DESTROY the GTR on any straightaway.

It doesnt work like that. It takes alot of variables into affect including power. Your GTR would be able to go around faster if it was as nimble as the NSX race car but no, and btw that Zonda is a full on race car good luck trying to top that...

It works fine.

 

[defaultoasis]

See if you get a quicker lap time on SS7 with NSX stealth.
Same PP doesn't mean cars are always same quick in one particular type of track which GT5's track inclusion has favoured. Take it to Monza, de la Sarthe, Madrid, you can see the point of PP.

 

[emponator]

I've tested my whole "favourites" -list on the Nurburgring.
That's roughly 100 cars. Nearly all race cars and road cars/rally cars over 500hp were on racing softs, road cars and rally cars under 500hp on sports softs.

Car Time HP KG Tyres P.P
Red Bull X2010 S.Vettel 3:42.126 1520 545 RS 1000
Formula Gran Turismo 5:13.536 936 550 RS 904
Toyota Minolta 88C-V 5:34.943 1040 850 RS 740
Suzuki Escudo Dirt trial car 5:44.725 1050 800 RS 751
Toyota 7 Race car 5:47.563 928 620 RS 736
Mercedes Benz CLK-GTR 5:55.449 837 1000 RS 694
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 RM 6:07.523 905 1100 RS 698
Nissan R390 GT1 road car 6:07.589 704 1109 RS 661
Jaguar XJ220 race car 6:10.622 612 1180 RS 635
Citroen GT race car 6:11.936 662 1200 RS 639
McLaren F1 6:12.818 868 970 RS 674
TVR speed 12 6:13.994 1027 1020 RS 627
Pagani Zonda R 6:16.846 931 1070 RS 689
Castrol toms supra 6:16.924 578 1150 RS 633
Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR 6:18.562 1022 1257 RS 675
Mazda Furai Concept 6:18.662 561 675 RS 688
Tommy Kaira ZZ II 6:19.123 743 910 RS 645
Ford GT 6:19.766 869 1203 RS 657
Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren 6:22.093 919 1328 RS 672
Jaguar XJ13 Race car 6:22.323 683 998 RS 645
Lamborghini Murchielago LP670-4 SV 6:22.673 884 1330 RS 642
Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo 6:23.080 632 1120 RS 625
2010 Brian Vickers Camry 6.23:089 850 1565 RS 651
Bugatti Veyron 6:25.297 1227 1424 RS 691
Ferrari Enzo 6:29.242 906 1044 RS 642
Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano 6:33.724 841 1280 RS 618
Lexus LFA 6:34.064 696 1233 RS 586
Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4 6:34.677 760 1169 RS 619
Ford GT40 race car '69 6:35.264 555 998 RS 600
Audi RS6 avant 6:35.352 932 1524 RS 626
Jaguar XJ220 6:35.397 664 1362 RS 612
Ferrari F430 Scuderia 6:35.755 624 1119 RS 605
Amuse Carbon R 6:36.417 721 1123 RS 594
Nissan Option stream Z 6:36.435 847 1267 RS 618
Toyota Supra RZ 6:38.248 725 1228 RS 601
Mercedes Benz SL65 AMG 6:38.404 978 1531 RS 633
Spyker C8 Laviolette 6:38.696 596 910 RS 580
Alfa Romeo 155 2,5 V6 Ti 6:39.438 487 1010 RS 572
Mercedes Benz C63 AMG 6:39.830 896 1403 RS 621
Pagani Zonda C12S 6:39.930 868 1340 RS 629
BMW M3 GTR 6:41.211 544 1124 RS 572
Ferrari F40 6:41.241 696 1125 RS 590
Dodge Challenger R/T RM 6:41.412 782 1260 RS 644
Saleen S7 6:42.237 823 1125 RS 623
Lancia Delta S4 6:42.598 512 890 RS 582
Peugeot 205 T16 rally car evo II 6:42.970 507 910 RS 584
Chevrolet Camaro Z28 RM 6:43.345 551 1085 RS 599
Dodge Viper GTS 6:43.368 652 1271 RS 601
RUF CTR II 6:44.209 610 1214 RS 574
Nissan 400R 6:44.605 609 1271 RS 573
Dodge Challenger SRT8 6:44.819 624 1412 RS 568
Nissan 300ZX TT 2seater 6:45.543 651 1228 RS 579
Nissan Skyline R33 GTR 6:46.242 636 1309 RS 578
Mitsubishi GTO TT MR 6:46.756 671 1367 RS 587
RUF RGT 6:47.877 538 1170 RS 560
Subaru Impreza WRX STI '02 6:49.616 523 1199 RS 553
Lotus Esprit V8 GT 6:52.811 647 1103 RS 580
Plymouth Superbird 7:03.839 780 1323 RS 578
RUF BTR 7:06.809 566 1062 RS 560
Lotus Elise RM '96 7:14.155 189 645 RS 535
Suzuki Cappucino RM 7:48.527 134 590 RS 475

Car Time HP KG Tyres P.P
Suzuki GSX-R/4 concept 6:57.259 276 588 SS 586
Lotus Evora 7:01.984 476 1102 SS 566
Citroen C4 WRC 7:09.961 445 1230 SS 560
Ford Escort Cosworth Rally car 7:10.176 442 1230 SS 549
Audi TTS coupe 7:12.980 464 1173 SS 546
Lamborghini Countach LP400 7:13.352 480 1001 SS 559
Toyota Celica GT-four Rally car ST185 7:18.524 449 1200 SS 546
Lotus Esprit Turbo HC 7:18.817 450 975 SS 549
Chevrolet Corvette C3 7:19.319 499 1319 SS 555
Lexus IS200 GT-1 race car 7:20.652 383 1010 SS 528
Volkswagen Golf R32 mk4 7:21.316 432 1216 SS 523
Toyota Celica GT-four 7:23.550 493 1213 SS 530
Toyota MR2 GT-S 7:23.706 401 1107 SS 525
Mazda Roadster RS 7:27.147 352 931 SS 517
Peugeot 205 T16 7:34.796 395 1066 SS 505
Lotus Elise RM '96 7:39.741 159 645 SS 522
Mercedec Benz 190E evo2 7:40.854 373 1115 SS 488
Nissan Primera 2.0 Te 7:41.169 369 996 SS 503
Mercedes Benz SLK 230 Komnpressor 7:43.444 314 1315 SS 479
Mitsubisho Pajero Rally raid car 7:44.184 344 1202 SS 498
Lancia Stratos Rally car 7:45.901 374 880 SS 535
Lancia Delta HC integrale 7:48.360 374 1335 SS 489
BMW 2002 7:49.612 351 1005 SS 500
Tesla roadster 7:50.194 278 1104 SS 478
Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR 7:51.288 248 825 SS 486
Fiat 500 1.2 7:59.862 278 853 SS 497
Volkswagen Golf mk1 GTI 8:06.657 220 820 SS 453
Volvo 240 GLT estate 8:09.595 302 1426 SS 439
Volkswagen Sambabus 8:20.028 204 931 SS 431
Mazda Autozam AZ-1 8:26.845 148 647 SS 449
Toyota Prius G '09 9:00.709 161 1124 SS 389
Daihatsu Midget D-type 9:01.359 112 525 SS 436
Volkswagen beetle 9.24.942 85 652 SS 370



Let's compare one trio:

Suzuki GSX-R/4 concept 6:57.259 276 588 SS 586
Lexus LFA 6:34.064 696 1233 RS 586
Plymouth Superbird 7:03.839 780 1323 RS 578

Superbird has 84hp more power, weights 90kg more and have 8 points lower PP than the LFA.
Yet it was nearly 30 seconds slower around the ring than the LFA and 6 seconds slower than the GSX-R/4 even though it was on sports tires..

Most cases of the "high PP cars with poor times" relates to them being hard to drive and/or that they were one of the first ones I tested. I had a 6:22 time on the McLaren before I took it for a rerun.

Take the data how you wish.

 

[Augdogg21]

This is ridiculous. Its worse than O thought.

I just did a 1 15 with a STandard Zonda LM race car i picked up in the UCD. Completely Stock, 640PP, Same as the Fully tuned GTR, which I cant get to go around anywhere near as fast

btw Im using racing soft, the same as every other car I use.

I think this belongs more in the tuning section.

LOl. Cant compare! The whole point of having a PP system is to compare...otherwise what is it for?

I ment the differences in track time with different cars and their abilities.

 

[Poppins]

Lol you got 6:13 at nurb with the Speed 12?

That's pretty Insane. Ive managed 6:20.XXX and that was going all out not messing up, I could probably shave 10 seconds if I learned the track alot but that is insane. Faster then the Zonda R?

I also wonder how yours is only at 627 PP, do you have rear downforce way down or something?
EDIT: NVM turned my Rear DF to 45 instead of 60 and bam 627

 

[SavageEvil]

I think some people are mistaking some factors with the PP system, while it can match performance between cars pretty closely, it can't factor in the added performance factor of a car purpose built for racing(PD didn't separate Race car PP from road car PP). Even though the PP is the same, your power to weight ratio will not. The heavier of the two cars will not have optimum acceleration, nor cornering ability of the lighter race built race car. You can tell the PP system was meant to separate cars into classes, the PDI Kart has 512PP... a road car with 200 pp can beat that thing around a course. Don't confuse the PP system, it works for street cars versus street cars and race cars versus race cars. Seldom would it evenly match a race car versus a street car.
Race cars have dynamics that a road car wouldn't be able to match, realistically speaking is there really a way to evenly match a road car versus a purpose built racing machine in an even match up?

Remember that road cars have their own built in downforce capability and it is far below that of a race car. PP doesn't account for how well a car handles either, seems like it goes by power, weight and grip/braking. PP still needs work, why they removed tire type from the equation is baffling, but I'm guessing that there might be some errors with grip levels of the rubber.

I find PP based racing to be very close, most cars are usually better in certain areas. Some might have better control, others a higher top end but it's usually pretty good with matching cars.

 

[RogsR34UK]

My faith in PP took a further knock when I got a second 0 mile Citroen 2CV, Both cars were as untouched, yet they had different PP numbers. An oil change on the oldest (with the lower number) corrected the discrepancy.

 

[benda18]

Get a V spec GTR 09 and get the ZOnda LM.

IRL nobody races a V spec GTR and a Zonda LM. As a race host you have to make these things clear.

The PP system isn't perfect but the racing is definitely much better now than before when all we had was HP/Weight restrictions.

 

[checkyoursix]

Real life racing series have a difficult time keeping racing close enough for viewers to find interesting and those organizations don't have 1% of the variables GT5 has to deal with. They operate very limited fields and use kludges to keep things close like restrictor plates (NASCAR), ballast (Super GT adds after qualifying!), No turbos (Formula One), etc.
And these series' cars are almost identical and yet noncompetitive without a lot of rules fostering competitiveness. Most racing series mandate spec tires as well.
Back to GT5: If a race is close, and the cars aren't all clones of each other then I think PD has done an admirable job.
I like the PP system. I think it is an algorithm created based upon P/W ratio mixed up with a little of what PD has seen go down in online races. I'm sure we will see more tweaks (through updates.) PD's PP system hopefully will respond just like a real racing series does as competitors tweak for advantage within the existing rule structure.

 

[MM1000]

I don't think it's GT5 that is biased against heavy cars with poor downforce. REALITY is biased against these cars.

Cars like the Veyron are terrible for motorsports. They should be at a great disadvantage. If you want to excel in racing, you have to worry about reducing weight and pushing the tires down. The online PP system favors those who do, and disfavors those who try to overwhelm with overpowered bricks. I think that makes a lot of sense.

 

[checkyoursix]

I don't think it's GT5 that is biased against heavy cars with poor downforce. REALITY is biased against these cars.

Cars like the Veyron are terrible for motorsports. They should be at a great disadvantage. If you want to excel in racing, you have to worry about reducing weight and pushing the tires down. The online PP system favors those who do, and disfavors those who try to overwhelm with overpowered bricks. I think that makes a lot of sense.

Correct. If you read reviews, the Veyron has a special top speed mode that requires the car be stopped to switch into. Ordinary driving doesn't allow the highest speeds to be reached. The Veyron exists so people that can afford it can claim to own a car with a super-high top speed. Not to race.

On this forum there is a lot of love for the Veyron, but I think that car is absolutely not designed with racing as its mission.

Racing history also shows us that light weight is king. Read about how teams used to acid dip their cars to remove pounds, drill holes in the body, etc.

 

[Adrenaline]

In the 600pp class, at Trial Mountain, you need to be in the 1:17's to be competitive, really good drivers can run low 1:16's. So, there's a chance you've just hit a consecutive streak of better drivers recently.

For online racing...
The car with more downforce usually wins.

40PP is a huge difference, so your Zonda Example fails.

I do agree lighter cars are at an advantage though. Power to weight ratio only accounts for so much, and in a straight line, I'm sure it's probably a lot more even, but when taking corning into consideration, the lighter car can carry higher speeds through all corners, where the heavier, higher HP car, can't make use of it's only advantage.

P.S. The Stealth Models are ahead of the game from the start

 

[JJSCHMITTY]

You can tell the PP system was meant to separate cars into classes, the PDI Kart has 512PP... a road car with 200 pp can beat that thing around a course.

For the record, a 512 pp kart can crush a Citroen 2CV around any track, any day. The citroen can hit 50, if it's fast. The kart can hit, oh, I don't know, 80? 90? The kart can also corner much better. I'm not attempting to troll here, just saying that a better example would be a 512 pp kart vs a Alfa TZ2. Kart has a higher PP, car can do pretty much everything faster.

 

[Adrenaline]

For the record, a 512 pp kart can crush a Citroen 2CV around any track, any day. The citroen can hit 50, if it's fast. The kart can hit, oh, I don't know, 80? 90? The kart can also corner much better. I'm not attempting to troll here, just saying that a better example would be a 512 pp kart vs a Alfa TZ2. Kart has a higher PP, car can do pretty much everything faster.

Welcome to 2012...