What (If Anything) Can PD Learn from Enthusia Professional Racing?

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@Wolfe: :lol: I will look up the options when I finally get an English version... trying to translate Japanese with my limited linguistic skills (read: none) is a monumental task. :lol:

RE: gear guides? Who uses those? And on most of the starting tracks, the layouts are too easy for me to need a gear guide. But I'm finding some of the older RWDs pretty nasty little cars... I'm up to the challenge, though. :sly:
 
The calendar deal in Enthusia is pointless when you aren't in RS. All the big events in RS are pretty much a sensational package. It actually brings life to races in the year. The variety of tracks and race events in Enthusia make the game very fun to play to actually imagine all the different tracks in the varied locations. Look at Mirage Forest, Speediapolis Ring, and others for example. PD could really make the racing scene more realistic and fun with all the different race tracks and races available. I think it's possible to come up with a Career Mode for GT5 without being a typical Career Mode game. Gran Turismo features a calendar deal when you see something like "Jun 29" for example. I do sort of imagine if GT had its own Caldenar system using the Gregorian calendar (the calendar system used here in America and in many other places around the world) and if it was stupidly real. This was where I had to do a lot of Internet research one night just to see how the system works and what GT would be like with this system. The key flaw for Enthusia's calendar is that a week automatically passes when you switch cars or take a rest. The next paragraph is going to be pretty technical, so if it seems very weird, disregard it and move on to the next paragraph.

A suitable system to use is that Sunday, Year 1, January 1st would be the starting point for all GT games. I learned that our current calendar system for around 1900 to 2099 has a certain pattern. The perpetual calendar deal would mean that the caldendar for year 1 would be repeated for year 29. In other words, the calendar repeats itself after 28 years. The Gregorian Calendar ACTUALLY repeats itself over 400 years. But to be honest and fair, I'd probably go with the 28-year perpetual calendar deal even if you aren't going to be playing Gran Turismo 5 for 28 years (in the game's time). Hell, I'm in about Year 7 in GT4 at about 76% completion. I can't even imagine playing the game for anything more than at least 10 years of game time in GT4. A nice calendar system will mean that all of the available races will be viewable and that certain special race events will be available year-round. The types of races available would range from events run at a special time of the year and even certain events of the year sort of based on such locations. Look back at Mirage Crossing and Speediapolis Ring in Enthusia. A more realistic deal would mean that only Indy Cars will be able to compete throughout the month of May to make ready for the Memorial Day Classic. And if you could actually do this, I doubt we would have the Indy-Charlotte double some oval racers do in trying to run the Indy 500 and Coca-Cola 600 all on one Sunday. That Mirage Crossing deal would have to be a series of races on this desert course. It's only fitting since there can be certain variations of Mirage Crossing available to the player. Of course, every leap year would be every four years. Can you imagine if there was a special endurance race or some other special kind of race held only on February 29th? Maybe imagine the 24 Hours of Le Mans and 24 Hours at the Nürburgring taking place at the times of year they are held. GT5 could be a wonderful package if executed nicely.

So let's investigate calendar possibilities for GT5. Let me take you through one hypothetical year of Gran Turismo racing. Set me straight on any events I may have forgotten or missed.

JAN I think January would have a plethora of racing events, especially at Ice Racing and Rally events. Imagine racing at Ice Arena with your low-powered and lowly-tuned car in GT5. Some track days would see snow and/or very cold temperatures. Maybe imagine a 24 endurance race in GT5 based on a Florida-based road course. Does that remind you of something? Right- the 24 Hours of Daytona. There is also the Monte Carlo Rally. Perhaps imagine rally cars racing around beautiful Monte Carlo's F1 course since I don't think we'll see the real rally course.

FEB A number of racing series would start up. Temperatures would be up as most cold places warm up. I guess one of the biggest races in the world in February is the Daytona 500. Imagine a long-running oval race. Maybe that Twin Ring Motegi - Super Speedway used for a long-distance oval race. Imagine a fun Valentine's Day race which only cars painted in red, white, and maybe pink can compete. An American February race other than Daytona would be a President's Day race in America with only American cars.

MAR Big time racing series would kick off and the biggest race of March has to be the Mobil 1 12 Hours of Sebring. A GT version would include some long race at Grand Valley (not exactly the Grand Valley 300km) with a huge number of cars available. Race winners and good performers would get to qualify for the Le Mans endurance in June. Perhaps imagine the Gran Turismo World Championship opening up late March or early April. Speaking of which...

APR A few more series start up as Spring is in session. Some already-running series are slowly heating up. Biggest April race would likely be the wonderful Long Beach Grand Prix. Long Beach hosts America's oldest street course race. It's seen everything from Champ Cars to Formula One in this SoCal race. I say that San Francisco is my favorite Northern California city. Well, Long Beach is probably my favorite Southern California city. Maybe even Malibu and Los Angeles are up there for me as well.

MAY It's time to get your engines running and make ready for America's biggest oval race (and maybe even the only oval race that matters)- the Indianapolis 500. GT's version of Indy wouldn't be in there. In fact, GT's version would be pretty uninteresting for many of us since only Test Course is the longest oval in the game. Again, it could come down to doing Motegi or if PD could secure Indy in GT5. Sprint car lore traditionally has an event at Indianapolis Raceway Park called "The Night Before the 500" in which sprint cars have a little fun before the bigtimers compete at Indy. Memorial Day weekend is basically an oval month for America with TWO big races.

JUN Oh yeah, players. It's Le Mans time! But it's also Nürburgring Nordschleife time as well (I believe). How do you choose? These are two of the biggest races of the year with BIG pay to the winner. They almost shadow over any other race that month. Most major racing series will see their halfway points either this month or next. I also hear that June is the month when the ever-popular Goodwood Festival of Speed takes place. For the uninitiated, the Goodwood Festival of Speed is usually this hill climb event featuring classic cars and modern rockets. A moment I best remember was when the Jaguar XJ-R9 was raced at Goodwood as he laid down a sub-50 second time despite the rear wing getting clipped by the hay near the finish. PD already has two big tracks to compliment June racing.

JUL Proud to be an American? Well, there's an Independence Day race for you. A few big racing series here in America come up with races on Independence Day. The biggest non-Independence Day race here in America is the Pepsi Southern 400 under the lights of Daytona. A GT version would see big time racing on any American oval with world-class race cars. Either that, or world-class, American-only cars. Imagine a race in New York City, Sears Point, or even Laguna Seca on that day. The calendar would sort of cycle the different races. So one year it can be held in NYC while other years will see racing in some other American city or race track. A lot more racing series will be in the halfway point as it's time to get serious in thinking about championships. Imagine PD coming up with racing events for the month of July

AUG Ahh August. One of the only months to not have any significant holidays. Well, except for Civic Holiday in Canada. In August, some big Australian races are usually held in August. Can't name any right now. America has the Matco Tools US Nationals- the Indy 500 of NHRA drag racing. PD could come up with drag racing events in August like on the Las Vegas street drag event or use the Test Course's 0-400m straight. There is also the Brickyard 400 for the stock car boys and girls. A great number of racing events (mostly in America that I know of) are usually held this time of year.

SEP The biggest races of September are usually the Sandown 500 in Australia and Petit Le Mans in America. Forza has Road America, GT doesn't. Imagine a great race of either 1,000 miles or 10 hours (whichever comes first). Some series would be winding down this time of year as fall is fast approaching. There may be a GREAT idea PD can take advantage of. GT4 features New York City. This September, we're looking at the 5-year anniversary (at least this year) of the horrible 9/11 attack on America. This is a true story from me- I was part of another message board (it wasn't GTPlanet obviously) when I participated in mostly a discussion for the PC game, Sports Car GT. On the week of the 9/11 tragedy, I wanted to propose something to the people to maybe show our appreciation of America so that us American racing game fans can show their support and honor the lives lost on that horrible day in New York City and in Washington D.C. I modified someone else's car by painting on a message saying "Don't Mess with America." A race that COULD be dedicated to this tragic moment could be a support race on the streets of New York City in Times Square. It would likely be called the 9/11 Memorial Race in remembering the lives lost in New York and the brave people who sought to clear up the reckage around Ground Zero by saving some lives and keeping peace among stunned New Yorkers. I don't know. May be a controversial idea, but I thought it would be a pretty interesting event to have a race mourning the loss of all the people who died that day in 2001. A good consideration could be that cars competing in this special race would carry American flags painted on the cars competiting.

OCT Most championships will come to an end or be near the end in October as Fall is forthcoming. In America, this time of year can mean only one thing- the Valvoline Runoffs. The Valvoline Runoffs is usually described as the Olympics of motorsport where you see many different classes of four-wheel racing ranging from production cars to purpose-built sportscar prototypes and single-seater formula-type cars. All competitors are vying for one thing- the National Championship in that certain class. The best PD can do is come up with a race series where a lot of low-level racers can enjoy competiting at a certain permanent road course where competition can be fierce. We could look at anything from Grand Valley to High-Speed Ring. Maybe even Tsukuba. An interesting race to take place would be an event on Halloween. The race would have to be on a track that's spooky, scary, and in the dead of night. Halloween is my least favorite holiday, only because it's my unluckiest day of the year. PD can have some fun with this one. I think the Bathurst 1000 takes place in October, so imagine a Bathurst 1000 event in GT5 if Bathurst is included.

NOV For me, one of the great November traditions is having Thanksgiving dinner and watching some American football. Some more racing series would likely end in November including Super GT and NASCAR. It's going to be colder this time of year as people will wear layers. Guys will trade Hawaiian shirts and shorts for long pants and maybe some sneakers or boots. Girls will have to trade tank tops and sandals for cardigans and boots. The real active scene would be rally racing. There would also be a number of club racing events having some Autocross and club races in cold weather. Yeah, it's time to wind things down. Maybe Chamonix would be open for some ice racing.

DEC Depending on how you feel, there can be a number of different racing events. The first possibility is that rallying ends for early December. The second possiblity is that club racing and amateur racing continues. The third possibility is that some big racing events will take place to end the year as Winter takes center stage. The year will end with great racing. Nothing wrong with that. I can imagine my times with "Ridge Racer Type 4." That one race I wanted to win was the "Shooting Hoops" event held on New Year's Eve in the game. You win that race, you win the Real Racing Roots '99 Championship. PD can cash in big time with two exceptional racing events for Christmas and New Year's Eve if need be. Imagine a race on Christmas on a street course for one event, then imagine a great year-ending race on New Year's Eve sort of like the "Race of a Thousand Years" like in 2000 on the streets of Adelaide, Australia. I may be able to sense a season-ending street race on Tokyo R246 for New Year's Eve. Then after that race is done, fireworks burst and a new year comes to life. An interesting take is if the race lasts just a little after the celebrations. It would be sweet because you could be the last champions of the old year, and the first champions of the new year. Sound like fun? PD may have some incredible fun with December if they choose to make something happen.


Please note that this hypothetical year of Gran Turismo racing has taken me over 2-3 hours to come up with and plenty of searching on Google to get some of my facts accurate. The only wild cards would be about certain race tracks hosting certain race events in specific times of the year. It would make races more interesting since you have a certain time of the year to look forward to a specific race. Imagine being able to say, "oh, I can't wait for (mm/dd) when that big (race) event takes place!" That's some calendar love for you. I was torn between making this issue its own thread and mentioning this from Enthusia. I chose to use Enthusia as a reference because we are talking about what PD could learn from Enthusia. Please reply if you want to talk more on the notion of this calendar system or if you want to offer what you think PD could learn from Enthusia (if anything).
 
I love the idea of a racing calendar in a Season or Career Mode, where you're on a racing schedule and you have to do certain tracks in a certain order on certain days. Weather and time of day would be a nice factor on that. But in regular old Arcade or Gran Turismo Mode, leave it open and free to do as you please, in whatever order you're qualified to go in. I'm not sure if that's what you were driving at, John, but that would be how I'd like to see calendars implemented.
 
I pretty much have time on my hands since college doesn't begin for me until August 28th. The deal here is that it's possible to be part of an enduring year of racing. I thought if you're going to use a calendar system or have some sort of January through December system, why not have this deal extended to the kind of races run? Weather events as well as certain times of running this race would be interesting. The championships can range from certain low-level race events all the way up to the Gran Turismo World Championship. I don't think every race should be part of a calendar. My only drawback for all of this is that it will prolong all the time it takes just to go from one race to the next. I think Enthusia focused on feature race events in its lineup of races (especially in RS). Another problem with this is that trying to win the certain race can mean that you'll have to wait until maybe next year to redo the race event. A possible alternative is that you will be able to race the event with a certain car. But the car you will be using will be locked so that you can't take some car to do any races other than the given championship the car is committed to. Think about it like a celebrity or model's schedule. A singer who will sing the American national anthem at a certain event likely isn't going to be seen bungie jumping in California, for example. So I think the key for getting more completed races would be the ability to compete in what I called "Feature Events." Feature events would be the certain racing events traditionally or usually run in that specific month. So a feature event in June would be the 24 Hour events at the Nürburgring Nordschleife and Le Mans. It isn't possible to do both races in one year, so it's best to pick one feature race and try to win it. Otherwise, you'll have to run the race next year. Either that, or simply reload the game file (like we've done in GT1 through GT3 to redo the event without having to wait until next year. Certain factors considering how long you'll be able to run and rerun the race depends on if we're going to see class racing and you have to win in all the classes for racing events which feature class winners.

There would have to be some things to do in order to make it realistic and not prolong the length of time needed to win every race in the game and acheive 100% completion.
 
Okay, that's what I thought you were saying.

No, the calendar idea would be klunky and irritating if you tried to lay that on GT Mode. Gran Turismo Mode is kind of like Arcade Mode but more serious, the whole world of racing under one cursor. If you try to lay a structure over that which is based on a schedule of events, that's kind of hard to justify. Like, you have hundreds of manufacturer cup races, as well as SCCA type events with the Sunday Cup and all that, running alongside things like the endurance races.

The reason you have a racing schedule is because you have a league, one type of race with your specific race car, and you have to go where the league schedules the race. And you follow that schedule because you're racing for a championship. I do like this idea because I do want that kind of structure in Gran Turismo, but that only works if you give Gran Turismo special modes like Season and Career Mode for them, modes based on real life racing. Slapping a calendar on GT Mode would just be weird and bothersome.
 
I don't see how GT is lacking content that Forza and Enthusia have. GT4 has more tracks, more cars, and more adjustments than both, but I don't see that as a strong point. Yes, it may have more content, but at the loss of quality. Quantity over quality isn't a good strategy for any Racing Simulator, because that's not what they're designed to be, by nature. If you want just loads of content, go buy GT2. A rediculous amount of cars, tracks, and features that'd take the span of time's existance to exhaust. But, the cars look like rolling shoeboxes, and the tracks nothing more than a giant paper cutout. Was it evolutionary? Yes. Was it great for it's time? Yes. Neither of which are good reasons to compete with more detailed, structured, and involved simulators, like Live for Speed and Enthusia. Quantity, my good man, will not make this game great.

Then how do you keep GT from becoming "just another racing sim"?

Quantity comes at a loss of quality? Since when? GT4 certainly isn't lacking in quality and it has more content than its competitors. Why do people choose GT4 over games like Enthusia and Forza? Content.

Besides, nobody ever said anything about "quantity over quality"...you're just assuming and wrongly at that. The quality (of the game mechanics) isn't going to be sacrificed for or because of the amount of content. The exact opposite is the case. The more robust the simulation, the better your content will be. As far as game design goes, the game mechanics and content are two totally different departments. Throwing more cars and/or options in the game isn't going to take time away from building the simulation. Having a good simulation is only half the story...you then have to apply it. Having vast amounts of content is equally important to having a robust simulation.

GT2 can easily be exhausted, because it does lack the depth of more modern sims. The huge problem with GT4 is that GT2 still beats it in other regards...most notably "fun factor". The race structure was far superior...money wasn't so easily obtained right from the start...winning races was far more rewarding...and of course, GT2 still had the Racing Modification. GT4 is simply a chore to play through...the only thing that saves it (by making it fun and challenging) is the on-line community.
 
If there's ANYTHING Polyphony needs to improve on, it's their AI and for the love of god.........they NEED to make MANY restrictions to races/championships, starting with horsepower limit/weight limit(like in GT2). The AI in GT4 is the best I've seen in the series...well aside from GT2(but that's because GT2 makes it fair for both the AI and the player).

So in conclusion, Polyphony...instead of adding PENALTY, which is annoying as hell, add restrictions like you did in GT2. (i'd REALLY like to see more non-tuning championships).

Oh! also, Polyphony needs to re-design their tracks, so that people can't take short-cuts through sand/dirt or wall-grind through curves.

So if Polyphony does that, it'll be 100X better than Entusia, but it already is better IMO so I'm just asking for more.
 
So basically, you want a Need for Speed-style Hollywood movie for a racing game? I say, "hell no, player!" Enthusia actually brings out the best in you (not to say that GT4 doesn't have its moments). Try unlocking and racing Löwenseering in Enthusia. The course is challenging, yet manageable. Even in some races where you could basically win in a blowout, it's tough. I also suggest you make an entry in an old GT5 thread of mine about how hard do you want GT5 to be if you want it to be insanely hard (and that you can actually win without having to use cheats or hacking). Gran Turismo 4 actually lets you drive like a jackass if it means winning the race. One would tell me that it's not professional to do. Enthusia fails to recognize something- not every driver is perfect. You go off the course, you get penalized. Whack a wall (even a little brush) or another car, and it's a penalty. Sometimes you have to play dirty to win. And don't get me started on ToCA Race Driver 3's sanctioning system.

Please note that Enthusia is a completely underrated game. You just have to examine the little details to see why it can be better than GT4 (and even Forza) at times. Play through it some more.
 
Honestly, I haven't touched Enthusia since I bought it, and I haven't fired up Toca 3 in about two months. The steering is just frooked all to heck. The only games I enjoy are Gran Turismo 4 and Forza. Nothing else interests me.
 
PD doesn't need to rework their tracks, they just need to implement a penalty system that punishes the cheaters just like in the real world.
PD DOES need to rework the entire menu setup/ map of the games modes.
Like the Beginner,Professional, etc modes, having the game recognize what class car you have and what mods you've done and add in equally matched A.I.
As for a season race or SCCA style, PD could add in regular Gran turismo mode and then there would be hardcore mode, where everything would be as realistic as possible for those that wanted it.
PD seriously needs to rethink their prize's from winning races.
Damage, only after they fix everything else thats wrong first.
I don't think PD should be allowed to call their arcade game a simulator as it's so far from a real sim it's not funny.
Those 80+ people at PD need to get off their pedastal and actually DO something other than pretty graphics and a sorry excuse for a racing/game mode (photo mode).
 
While I would agree that PD need do little to the tracks (they are not the problem) certainly a better penalty or 'black-flag system would help. However to be fair better AI and tighter race entry conditions would do the job just as well.

As far as menus go, I personally would like to see the return of the shortcuts from GT2, but EPRs menus are not a good example to follow.

To label GT4 as an arcade game is however a bold claim to make without any supporting statement, Need For Speed underground is an arcade game, as is Burnout or PGR, GT4 is not the same as these.

GT4 is as much a sim as EPR and TRD3 and far more of one than Forza, make sure you turn off the driving aids, stick on a set of N2 tyres and take an M3 around the 'ring, nothing arcade about it at all.

Its certanly not in the same hardcore sim range as GPL, RBR or LFS, but then again very little on a console is.

On the subject of disliking photo-mode, you may ind yourself quite alone on this area, as most people have found this to be an ejoyable addition to the series. You may want to look at how popular the photomode sub-forum here is before decrying it as a waste.

Regards

Scaff
 
PD doesn't need to rework their tracks, they just need to implement a penalty system that punishes the cheaters just like in the real world.
PD DOES need to rework the entire menu setup/ map of the games modes.
Like the Beginner,Professional, etc modes, having the game recognize what class car you have and what mods you've done and add in equally matched A.I.
As for a season race or SCCA style, PD could add in regular Gran turismo mode and then there would be hardcore mode, where everything would be as realistic as possible for those that wanted it.
PD seriously needs to rethink their prize's from winning races.
Damage, only after they fix everything else thats wrong first.
I don't think PD should be allowed to call their arcade game a simulator as it's so far from a real sim it's not funny.
Those 80+ people at PD need to get off their pedastal and actually DO something other than pretty graphics and a sorry excuse for a racing/game mode (photo mode).

So in your opinion, would they(PD) be able to call it a simulator if they put in a cheater-punishment system?
 
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