What is "feel"? (Also new cars vs. old cars)

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Now compare this with driving ..say, a 3-series BMW quickly down a back road. Then... say, a Caterham 7. Does the music analogy hold?

That analogy would be spot on if we consider the BMW and Caterham as the stereos. While you can probably enjoy both Kenny G and Slayer on the BMW, I doubt you could listen to Kenny G. on the Caterham.

Like everything that gets older, the new Cooper is fatter. Having driven Mk1 Coopers and owning a Mk2 I can say that I do agree with you, the steering the Mk1 had it damn near perfect for the car, while the Mk2 needs a bit more cowbell. Although if you push the sport button in the Mk2 you get pretty much the exact same feeling back as the Mk1 had. I guess BMW just made it softer and lighter with the new generation to make it a bit more user friendly, but still gave the option to make it heavier and crisper.

I only got to try it after our hot laps... so I can't give a definite "yes" on the "Sport Mode", but when I did try it, it did feel much better.

But once you get up to SUVs and the like, you're often talking about very wide tyres with a very tall profile and squashy suspension, where much of the information from the road surface is filtered out long before it reaches the steering rack. And then, the usually power-assisted rack itself is heavily assisted to make the job of turning such massive tyres and a heavy body much easier. By this point, virtually all feel has disappeared.

Not to mention the slack built into the steering to keep kick-back from hitting boulders from taking your thumbs off, the elasticity of rubber components (and even some metal components) in the steering system... truck steering can be very, very numb... but such loose systems are desirable for serious off-roading.
 
I'm glad you brought up this analogy because it's one that I've wanted to use since we spun this thread off.

The amount of feedback a car gives is very much like listening to music. How loud people want their music is very much dependent on the disposition of the listener. And how much 'feel' people want in their cars is again dependent on how much feedback they are willing to tolerate/enjoy.

Imagine a 49 year old housewife listening to Kenny G at 52 dB (louder than a whisper, but lower than normal voice conversation). Compare this to her teenaged son listening to Slayer at 110 dB (average rock concert).

Who is having a more immersive, fuller, more enjoyable listening experience?

(please, no Kenny G jokes)

Furthermore, can Slayer be enjoyed at 52 dB?

Now compare this with driving ..say, a 3-series BMW quickly down a back road. Then... say, a Caterham 7. Does the music analogy hold?

EDIT:


This is a very good list. I would add powertrain vibration to the list of things under "feedback". BMWs in particular are very good at this. Hold a BMW steering wheel in your hand and even at idle, there is a certain vibration that comes through. It's very slight and unobtrusive, but it's there. The frequency of this vibration changes dependent on the engine speed. When driving quickly, it reinforces your sub-conscious awareness of how many RPMs the engine is turning. You instinctively know where you are on the tach. This one feature that is unfortunately missing in my current car.


M

You hit the nail on the head.
But while feel is completely subjective, when we are using the audio analogy, I prefer to use the BMW 2002 and an AMG C63. I can liken the 2002, a vehicle that is fun at all speeds and then gets a little beyond its capability when you start driving at 10/ 10s to your Caterham. The only thing is (i've heard) that the Caterham demands your respect, your attention, your concentration. And it can be draining as a result.

An AMG C63, while imminently superior to an old BMW, might only be truly enjoyable when you are doing things that are very illegal on public streets. Not so much at the track, but that is another story. But it wakes up a whole lot more when pushed. And responds better when pushed.

Ultimately, the user is how decides how much "feel" they want to experience and what works for them. And some cars are more responsive and rewarding than others.

I can guarantee you that my mom doesn't really want a car that has a lot of response and feel. She wants a living room couch on wheels.
 
home: I never actually FEEL feedback through the wheel. I'll get some engine feedback through my foot on the gas or brake. I'm mostly using my ears to hear what's going on with the tyres and suspension. I'm so used to ignoring minor stuff due to the random conditions of the roads around here and the extreme reaction of feather-weight old pickups All the weight is in the nose if there's nothing in the bed, so the rear susp on older pickups tends to bounce around like a two year old with a sugar rush.
and by the way, gents, I'm more concerned with a tight turning radius.
 
@ Sniffs: Understood now 👍

...the 2002, a vehicle that is fun at all speeds

This is what appeals to me. I like cars that have low limits that you can safely reach, because you can enjoy it more of the time. It's all very well having huge amounts of power or hugely wide tyres but it's too much to use on the street without doing something pretty illegal.
 
Interesting to note that Jalopnik just did a big thing on the Joys of Driving Slow and the Joys of Driving Quickly...


On Feel

Given the cars I've driven, feel for me is generally more about the connection to the car than the actual performance that it gives back. When you have a physical, or more importantly, emotional connection to a vehicle, feel goes beyond anything that can be easily explained. Although I have not spoken of the car in some time, my old Fox was a prime example of a car that I knew and understood, and continues to be one of the most feel-filled cars I've ever driven. In that case, that may have been more about it being my first car... Or just as much a part of it being a poorly built Brazillian import. No power steering, a gearbox and clutch only I could work, and a chassis that was vague until it screamed the answers at you... It was my car, and only I could understand it.

Having driven far more vehicles sense then, especially after my shopping endeavors two years ago, its more about balance for me. My Jetta was a wonderful car, a gentle urban runabout most of the time, entertaining enough when out on the country roads when it needed to be. Going from that to my Celica was like night and day. You sense almost everything in the car, for better or worse. But the car isn't brutal, and I can still drive it easily at a slow speed, enjoying the drive along the way. Or, I can turn it up to 8/10ths and have a bit of fun while I scare my friends. With the Celica, I can get in a fully understand what its telling me.

Comparing it to my most-recent new drive, my brother's '92 Firebird, the Celica is practically like an F1 car. In the Pontiac, the steering is vague and somewhat terrifying when you put the power down. Throw in the brakes that go less when you want to and more when they maybe care to slow the vehicle, and wow, you start to worry. The Pontiac is fun to drive... But for an entirely different reason than what my Celica is. In that case, its the lack of feel and the overall unpredictability that makes it an interesting car. Now that my brother has had it for a while, I'm sure that if he got into my Toyota, he'd hate it. Everything is too low, too heavy, too direct to be what he would want to play with.


...So, perhaps not the best answer. At least to me, if I can walk up to a car and sense the energy coming off of it, we're at a good starting point.
 
Link to it, then!

http://jalopnik.com/5433150/the-joy-of-driving-slow
http://jalopnik.com/5433153/the-joy-of-driving-fast

Pretty interesting articles... I kind of agree with the Joy of Driving Slow... I think everyone can... even people who can afford cars which you'd need to sate the Joy of Driving Fast.

Both are great articles, which is unusual because I normally don't like the car-fascist articles on Jalopnik. But both of those hit the nail on the head. Some of the best fun I've had whilst driving has been in pretty slow cars. I've enjoyed driving quicker ones of course and I'd love to drive some really fast ones, but I think it's easier to appreciate a good slow drive sometimes - even the commute to work and back.

It's why I personally love small, slow cars and then drive them very quickly. It's also why I appreciate good feel rather than good performance figures, as feel you can enjoy all the time and performance only occasionally.
 
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