what is the best car ever made?

[rjensen11]

I change my vote:

Any vehicle that can survive either a Russian winter or a Minnesota winter, and then go through a Minnesotan summer gets my vote.

 

[Pistachio]

As someone who owned and really enjoyed one for several months I can see you have no idea what you're talking about.





It's unbelievable to me that you think European judgements of cars can also apply to the American market. This shows me exactly who I'm having a discussion with. In Europe, the Toyota Camry is crap. It's rough, it's not great on fuel, handling is piss, and it depreciates more than any other Japanese car on the continent. As "Car" puts it, it's optimised for straight, smooth high-speed American roads and not for British roads, which is okay because the European Toyota Avensis takes Camry's spot in Europe.

Im Australian and Wheels is Australian too, though Car IS a British magezine. I suppose it makes a LITTLE more sense in the US, what with its soft suspension and dead feel to steering, but it still isn't a good car anywhere, especialy in Aus where roads are alot twister and alot more British than they are American (albeit with draconian speed limits).

FURTHERMORE

The Toyota Camry is no success in Europe. In 2001 dealers on the entire continent of Europe managed to move 6,800 Camrys - the same number of Camrys sold by US dealers in one week. The Toyota Camry is ONLY an economic success in North America.

And Australia.

The Hyundai Excel, sold here as the Hyundai Accent, is a bad car, but here it's not successful in the slightest. Meanwhile, Hyundai products that ARE successful ARE good - the Hyundai Elantra and Hyundai Santa Fe are not only huge Hyundai successes but are among the very best vehicles in their segments.

Once again, in the US at least, the Kia Rio doesn't sell at all.

The Excel and Accent im VERY sure are two different cars. On that note they are both popular in Aus, i will not talk for the US market as i don't have much of a clue what is and isn't popular there. And i disagree with the Elantra and Sante Fe being good cars, i think they are mediocre, but thats a whole nother can of worms. Best Korean car = Hyundai Coupe/Tiburon and not because it's fast or anything, it's because it's built to a surprisingly high quality, is well balanced, and well thought out.

I don't think you understand that the point Kia Rio and Hyundai Excel/Accent is so Hyundai and Kia can have an inroad on value - companies attempting to sell low-priced cars based on 'value' must have something at the very base of the market to attract new customers, even if they're not making a profit (or a small one) off those vehicles. It's the same reason the Corvette will never be cancelled - it may or may not be making a profit, but it's irrelevant because the image that the Corvette brings to Chevrolet undoubtedly brings buyers of other models which do make a profit.

So people buy a Rio, then buy a better Kia later, or even enhance Kia's image? I just thought it was because they are cheaply/poorly made vehicles, hence they weren't going to attract buisness on the count of quality so they would have to make there cars cheap.

 

[Iceman]

Shelby Cobra hands down.

 

[1X83Z]

I'm fairly sure there must have been something wrong with the Cadillac they tested, this one gets 18-20 in the city, and well over 30 on the highway.

EPA estimates are always well above what consumers actually attain (usually by 20% or more), so if you're doing better, you either drive very conservatively or have had significant adjustments made to the engine. Or you've lost significant power - though in your case, any loss of power to help boost fuel economy would probably be cancelled out by the mileage of the engine.

I suppose it makes a LITTLE more sense in the US, what with its soft suspension and dead feel to steering, but it still isn't a good car anywhere,

You're simply wrong. In the US, the Toyota Camry SE V6 is the fifth-best car in the midsize sedan segment. It follows the Honda Accord EX V6, Mitsubishi Galant LS, Nissan Altima 3.5SE, and Mitsubishi Galant GTS. Considering this is a field of about seventy vehicles and the most competitive market on the planet, I'd say it makes it not a good car but a great one. And there's no compelling argument against that.

And Australia.

If only because Toyota's smart enough not to ship vehicles they can't sell so as to make a profit. They make a profit in Europe too - but they only see success in North America.

And i disagree with the Elantra and Sante Fe being good cars, i think they are mediocre, but thats a whole nother can of worms.

And why would you think that? Have you ever driven either vehicle? Hell, have you ever been inside them? You wouldn't say the Tiburon was any good if you've been inside the Mini Cooper S or Ford Focus SVT 3-door, each of which are significantly better cars. I think you only listen to what the magazines say.

So people buy a Rio, then buy a better Kia later,

That's the theory. The thing of it is, even if it doesn't work and people buy a Rio and never again own another Kia, the Rio that they did buy represents one sale and therefore another decimal on the market share board. It's nice to represent all ends of the market.

 

[Pistachio]

You're simply wrong. In the US, the Toyota Camry SE V6 is the fifth-best car in the midsize sedan segment. It follows the Honda Accord EX V6, Mitsubishi Galant LS, Nissan Altima 3.5SE, and Mitsubishi Galant GTS. Considering this is a field of about seventy vehicles and the most competitive market on the planet, I'd say it makes it not a good car but a great one. And there's no compelling argument against that.

Ok ok are we talking new camry or old? The new one i will say is leaps and bounds ahead of the old. I suppose this should have been clarified earlier. It just occured to me that we may be talking about the two different types. The new one overcomes the simply terrible body twistand craptastic handling (not to mention it was a bit gutless).

And why would you think that? Have you ever driven either vehicle? Hell, have you ever been inside them? You wouldn't say the Tiburon was any good if you've been inside the Mini Cooper S or Ford Focus SVT 3-door, each of which are significantly better cars. I think you only listen to what the magazines say.

I've been in an Elantra, it was unfantastic to say the leastthe build quality was terrible, what with all the plastics and stuff. The Tiburon is a well balanced car, with precise dynamics, rewarding driving experience. The Copper S is a great car, but you have to consider each ones individual merits.
Of course i listen to the magazines, there job is to inform us, and they do fairly good job depending on the magazines, i trust their judgement.

 

[1X83Z]

Ok ok are we talking new camry or old? The new one i will say is leaps and bounds ahead of the old. I suppose this should have been clarified earlier. It just occured to me that we may be talking about the two different types. The new one overcomes the simply terrible body twistand craptastic handling (not to mention it was a bit gutless).

The old Camry, when it came out in 1997, was just as good as the current Camry was when the 3.3-liter V6 was added.

I've been in an Elantra, it was unfantastic to say the leastthe build quality was terrible, what with all the plastics and stuff.

It's class-average in interior dynamics. And I've been in all of them.

The Tiburon is a well balanced car, with precise dynamics, rewarding driving experience. The Copper S is a great car, but you have to consider each ones individual merits.

I do. The Cooper S's individual merits are significantly higher than the Tiburon's in either V6 or 4-cylinder trim.

Of course i listen to the magazines, there job is to inform us, and they do fairly good job depending on the magazines, i trust their judgement.

Make your own judgements! Listen to M5Power!!

 

[Firebird]

- 2002-present Nissan Altima V6 (no-one ever thought of putting more than 200bhp into a family sedan until the Altima - in fact, Toyota, extremely proud of their all-new 2002 Camry, had to rush back to the drawing board to field a competitor)

The Chrysler Intrepid, Chrysler Concorde and Eagle Vision had 214hp in 1993. Since then the Intrepid, Concorde, LHS, 300M, etc. have had steady improvements in power. Indeed, the 300M has had at least 250hp since 1999.

The Pontiac Grand Prix, Chevrolet Lumina and Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme had 210hp in 1991. The Grand Prix and Buick Regal have had 240hp since 1997.

The original Taurus SHO had 220hp in 1989.

Hell, the lowly Dodge Spirit had an R/T model with 214hp in 1991...

 

[Ghost C]

The 300M is one badass car, except for the 110mph speed governer. I saw one keep up with a turbo Celica for the most part, except in the turns.

Also Doug, those figures are when my grandmother drives. I'll probably be seeing about 12mpg 👍.

Also, 80% of cars made after 2000 can't even qualify for being best car ever, because of the sheer volume of ugliness. And it just keeps getting worse.

 

[Iceman]

If only we lived in the days of the muscle cars.

 

[Pistachio]

The old Camry, when it came out in 1997, was just as good as the current Camry was when the 3.3-liter V6 was added.

I disagree, the new Camry has alot more rigidity, one of the main concerns of the older one, i remember an experience in the old one where creaking sounds would eminate from the dash and there was actualy visible bending in the car.



It's class-average in interior dynamics. And I've been in all of them.

I do. The Cooper S's individual merits are significantly higher than the Tiburon's in either V6 or 4-cylinder trim.

Yes perhaps, but you must agree, that despite the fact it is slower, more expensive and to a lower build quality than the Cooper S (except the early CooperS which was supposed to have crap build quality), it is a good car, and IMO the best Korean car yet. Not as good as the S but still good. I'm not a fan of the Tiburon/Coupe but im happy that Korean cars are getting better.



Make your own judgements! Listen to M5Power!![/QUOTE]

Yessir, make my own judgements by listening to you.

 

[wellyrn]

1985 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE is the best car you can get for the money. 1st gen + 13b engine = more power without the ugly.

 

[1X83Z]

The Chrysler Intrepid, Chrysler Concorde and Eagle Vision had 214hp in 1993. Since then the Intrepid, Concorde, LHS, 300M, etc. have had steady improvements in power. Indeed, the 300M has had at least 250hp since 1999.

As the king of nitpicking you ought to assume my response when you make this statement. Or perhaps you made it just to show that in fact you know the power ratings of Chrysler's sedans. The 1993-1997 Dodge/Chrysler Intrepid is 201.7" long and therefore a large sedan. The 1993-1997 Chrysler Concorde was 201.5" long and therefore a large sedan. The 1993-1997 Chrysler LHS (and 1993-1995 Chrysler New Yorker which, king though you are, you left off) was 207.4" long and therefore a large sedan. And of course with the 1998 redesign came a growth spurt for all models (except, sadly, the New Yorker, which didn't even see 1996), making them even larger sedans. Now granted you can consider them midsize sedans if you like, but then you also must consider the Buick LeSabre a midsize at just 200.0" making the large sedan category particularly lonely for the Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis.

Oh, and I don't care what the length is on the 300M because it's a premium sedan (Infiniti I35, Lexus ES330, Volkswagen Passat W8, Lincoln LS, Saab 9-5, Cadillac CTS, etc.).

The Pontiac Grand Prix, Chevrolet Lumina and Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme had 210hp in 1991.

Sexy though the Lumina was, the only model to get the 210bhp 3.4L V6 was the Z34 coupe. I believe later in the Lumina's life the sedan did attain the brilliance of the 3.4L V6, but it was only with the automatic transmission, limiting power to just 200 (as opposed to 210, like you said, which was only available with the manual transmission, which was only available with the coupe), making it not qualify for my brilliant statement "no-one ever thought of putting more than 200bhp into a family sedan until the Altima". These things the king should know!

I think this was true in Oldsmobile too, and even if it wasn't, by 1993 the engine was no longer available with a manual transmission over at the House of Re-used GM Platforms, so power was kept at bay. That said, I'll grant you that in 1995 power was increased to 215 with the automatic, but the engine was dropped from the Cutlass Supreme entirely in mid-1996 due to the more popular 160bhp 3.1L V6. That's something that hasn't yet happened at Nissan. I wonder if it will...

Whatever I said about Oldsmobile applied to Pontiac, too, except that the engine was never dropped entirely, but power wasn't increased to 215 until 1996, which was that Grand Prix's final year, so it celebrated more than 200bhp for about eight months.

The Grand Prix and Buick Regal have had 240hp since 1997.

Yeah, I'm wrong here. I mean, at 196.5" long in 1997, the Grand Prix would've technically been a large sedan to begin with, but the market caught up to it later in its (long) life. Though by my definition it still is a large sedan, but then again, so's the Maxima and Avalon in my book. And the Avalon's shorter than the Altima.

The original Taurus SHO had 220hp in 1989.

This is a performance version - it might be based on a family sedan but it wasn't any family sedan in practice. The "family sedan" V6 versions of the 1986-1995 Taurus had sizzling 140bhp 3.3 and 140bhp 3.8L engines.

Hell, the lowly Dodge Spirit had an R/T model with 214hp in 1991...

And 1992. And it was rated at 224bhp. But sadly at 181.3", it's a small sedan, not a family sedan.

 

[1X83Z]

I disagree, the new Camry has alot more rigidity, one of the main concerns of the older one, i remember an experience in the old one where creaking sounds would eminate from the dash and there was actualy visible bending in the car.

I think something you need to keep in mind is that the old Cam debuted seven years ago and the new one - without "rigidity problems" - debuted just two years back. Perhaps Toyota made some improvements in those five years. But in 1997 the Camry was the best in the business. You simply can't compare a seven-year-old car to a two-year-old car and expect the seven-year-old car to stand up.

Yes perhaps, but you must agree, that despite the fact it is slower, more expensive and to a lower build quality than the Cooper S (except the early CooperS which was supposed to have crap build quality), it is a good car, and IMO the best Korean car yet. Not as good as the S but still good. I'm not a fan of the Tiburon/Coupe but im happy that Korean cars are getting better.

You're going to concede that it's slower, more expensive, and more poorly built but still say it's a good car? The only Hyundais that stand up in our market are the Santa Fe 3.5 and the Elantra GLS - Tiburon is bested by more than half its class. In fact, the 4-cylinder Tib is the worst small coupe on the market.

 

[Pistachio]

I think something you need to keep in mind is that the old Cam debuted seven years ago and the new one - without "rigidity problems" - debuted just two years back. Perhaps Toyota made some improvements in those five years. But in 1997 the Camry was the best in the business. You simply can't compare a seven-year-old car to a two-year-old car and expect the seven-year-old car to stand up.



You're going to concede that it's slower, more expensive, and more poorly built but still say it's a good car? The only Hyundais that stand up in our market are the Santa Fe 3.5 and the Elantra GLS - Tiburon is bested by more than half its class. In fact, the 4-cylinder Tib is the worst small coupe on the market.

http://www.nctd.com/review-final.cfm?Vehicle=2003_Hyundai_Tiburon&ReviewID=1115
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/37595
http://www.modernracer.com/history/hyundaitiburonv6history.html
http://www.carsurvey.org/review_42821.html
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2002/09/12/147315.html
http://www.carsextreme.com/Hyundai-Tiburon.html

The top 6 results when searching for Tiburon reviews, they range from decent to quite good. I don't know what else i can do to convince you that this IS a good car.
I said it may be lesser than the CooperS in most ways, but the CooperS is just that good of a car. It is like saying a 360 Modena is crap because a 911 GT3 is better in almost every way.

 

[1X83Z]

The top 6 results when searching for Tiburon reviews, they range from decent to quite good. I don't know what else i can do to convince you that this IS a good car.
I said it may be lesser than the CooperS in most ways, but the CooperS is just that good of a car. It is like saying a 360 Modena is crap because a 911 GT3 is better in almost every way.

But... if you can GET a Mini Cooper S, or a Focus SVT 3-door, or a GTI 1.8T, all of which are better in every way, why would you even consider a Tiburon? I don't care if it's a good car or not - if there are BETTER cars, why buy it?

 

[Firebird]

As the king of nitpicking you ought to assume my response when you make this statement. Or perhaps you made it just to show that in fact you know the power ratings of Chrysler's sedans. The 1993-1997 Dodge/Chrysler Intrepid is 201.7" long and therefore a large sedan. The 1993-1997 Chrysler Concorde was 201.5" long and therefore a large sedan. The 1993-1997 Chrysler LHS (and 1993-1995 Chrysler New Yorker which, king though you are, you left off) was 207.4" long and therefore a large sedan. And of course with the 1998 redesign came a growth spurt for all models (except, sadly, the New Yorker, which didn't even see 1996), making them even larger sedans. Now granted you can consider them midsize sedans if you like, but then you also must consider the Buick LeSabre a midsize at just 200.0" making the large sedan category particularly lonely for the Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis.

You said, I quote: "no-one ever thought of putting more than 200bhp into a family sedan until the Altima". You didn't say large sedan. You didn't say midsized sedan. You didn't say small sedan. You said family sedan.

Oh, and I don't care what the length is on the 300M because it's a premium sedan (Infiniti I35, Lexus ES330, Volkswagen Passat W8, Lincoln LS, Saab 9-5, Cadillac CTS, etc.).

Fair enough. Infiniti I35, Lexus ES330, Volkswagen Passat W8, Lincoln LS, Saab 9-5 and Cadillac CTS owners more than likely feel insulted that you have compared a lowly Chrysler to their vehicles.

Sexy though the Lumina was, the only model to get the 210bhp 3.4L V6 was the Z34 coupe. I believe later in the Lumina's life the sedan did attain the brilliance of the 3.4L V6, but it was only with the automatic transmission, limiting power to just 200 (as opposed to 210, like you said, which was only available with the manual transmission, which was only available with the coupe), making it not qualify for my brilliant statement "no-one ever thought of putting more than 200bhp into a family sedan until the Altima". These things the king should know!

Touché.

You caught me on that one. The 3.4L "TwinDualcam" was not available in the 4-door until it became standard equipment in the 3.4 Euro in 1992. And, again, it was only 200hp.

it celebrated more than 200bhp for about eight months.

...several years before the Altima.

Yeah, I'm wrong here. I mean, at 196.5" long in 1997, the Grand Prix would've technically been a large sedan to begin with, but the market caught up to it later in its (long) life. Though by my definition it still is a large sedan, but then again, so's the Maxima and Avalon in my book. And the Avalon's shorter than the Altima.

...so the Altima is a large sedan, so everything I said before therefore fits within your definition.

This is a performance version - it might be based on a family sedan but it wasn't any family sedan in practice. The "family sedan" V6 versions of the 1986-1995 Taurus had sizzling 140bhp 3.3 and 140bhp 3.8L engines.

A friend of mine had one. It most certainly served as family transportation.

And 1992. And it was rated at 224bhp. ('1' is right next to '2' on the keyboard. I should proofread. ) But sadly at 181.3", it's a small sedan, not a family sedan.

Sedan's a sedan.

 

[Pistachio]

But... if you can GET a Mini Cooper S, or a Focus SVT 3-door, or a GTI 1.8T, all of which are better in every way, why would you even consider a Tiburon? I don't care if it's a good car or not - if there are BETTER cars, why buy it?

No you wouldn't buy it, unless say, your Korean and you want a Korean car like a certain friend of mine, or you like the styling. But as i said above, the Porsche GT3 is better than the 360 Modena in everyway, but this doesn't make the 360 a bad car by any means, it is still a brilliant car.

 

[1X83Z]

You said, I quote: "no-one ever thought of putting more than 200bhp into a family sedan until the Altima". You didn't say large sedan. You didn't say midsized sedan. You didn't say small sedan. You said family sedan.

The king prevails! The problem is that later I indeed clarified my comment saying "the Altima's V6 changed the midsize sedan market in 2002 like no other innovation in that market ever has."

Fair enough. Infiniti I35, Lexus ES330, Volkswagen Passat W8, Lincoln LS, Saab 9-5 and Cadillac CTS owners more than likely feel insulted that you have compared a lowly Chrysler to their vehicles.

Not if they knew the Chrysler was - hell, is - better than their vehicles.

...so the Altima is a large sedan, so everything I said before therefore fits within your definition.

No, I don't go by length in most circumstances.

Sedan's a sedan.

Tell that to people trying to cram their family into a Chevrolet Aveo. Some families might fit, but only if they're midgets. Truly.

 

[Firebird]

Tell that to people trying to cram their family into a Chevrolet Aveo. Some families might fit, but only if they're midgets. Truly.

I fit quite comfortably in the interior accomodations of an Aveo and Echo.

If my 6', 235lbs. frame can be seated in the back I do not see why a mother, father and three kids can't fit in an Aveo without hassle.

Then again, society has now decided a child warrants the purchase of an SUV or minivan, but that's another issue altogether.

 

[1X83Z]

I fit quite comfortably in the interior accomodations of an Aveo and Echo.

If my 6', 235lbs. frame can be seated in the back I do not see why a mother, father and three kids can't fit in an Aveo without hassle.

Actually I agree - Aveo has near class-best rear leg room and certainly best by length. Anyway, I was going to dinner just as I wrote that and saw it was the shortest sedan on the market so I put it down.

But as i said above, the Porsche GT3 is better than the 360 Modena in everyway, but this doesn't make the 360 a bad car by any means, it is still a brilliant car.

No - but why buy a worse car? I don't get it.

 

[Pistachio]

No - but why buy a worse car? I don't get it.

This seems to be going in circles but i've got time

Well, you may prefer the styling of one over the other, or you may likethe badge, maybe the car is baught because it comes from your home country or your country of residence. Whatever the reason is, it happens.

How bout a different example, a VW Passat V6 S and a WRX STi.
The STi is better AFAIK in every conceivable way. But nevertheless the VW Passat V6 S is a good car, and DOES sell. Would i buy one? Nope. But i would take a Volvo S40 T4 above both of them, even if it isn't as good, i mean it's a Volvo!

 

[1X83Z]

How bout a different example, a VW Passat V6 S and a WRX STi.
The STi is better AFAIK in every conceivable way. But nevertheless the VW Passat V6 S is a good car, and DOES sell. Would i buy one? Nope. But i would take a Volvo S40 T4 above both of them, even if it isn't as good, i mean it's a Volvo!

Every conceivable way? S40 T4? Have you ever been in one?



And that's where I stop this one.

 

[Pistachio]

Every conceivable way? S40 T4? Have you ever been in one?



And that's where I stop this one.

Dude... VOLVO! They got the chick factor like nobodies buisness.

 

[1X83Z]

At least go for the S40 T5...

 

[Pistachio]

At least go for the S40 T5...

Would be useful considering the T4 has been phased out or something, i can't seem to find it at carsales.com.au new. Must of happened recently.

 

[1X83Z]

Yeah, it was just replaced.