What is the big deal about using driving assists?

[Rinsky]

You cant use them because you then are not a sim racing pro!

O wait its a game......

Just do what you like and what feels best for you if youre having fun that way then its fine.

For me its diffrent per car.

I absolutely have no problem with others using assist at all. I also don't have a problem using them myself if needed.
Just don't understand why people get all bent out of shape over it when they are using other options in the game to make themselves better.

 

[PorscheHD]

I absolutely have no problem with others using assist at all. I also don't have a problem using them myself if needed.
Just don't understand why people get all bent out of shape over it when they are using other options in the game to make themselves better.

Well the simple explenation is that people are a bit stupid sometimes

They feel them self better then other by not using it. So the others are pussys

 

[MatskiMonk]

So this brings up my question for all those people who complain about others using driving assist.
How many of you drive with the bumper cam?
In my opinion it's probably the biggest made up assist in the game. It is an unrealistic view to give others a huge advantage of seeing the whole track and the cars around them compared to the realistic cockpit view that can obstructs your view of the track and cars around you.

It is absolutely no different than someone else who is using CSA or ASM because both are made up assist just like bumper cam.

I think you must be thinking of Chase cam or hood/roof cam, because bumper cam is like trying to type when you have invisible hands. I personally find cockpit cam like trying to drive from the backseat of a real car, with most of the windscreen blocked out -- sure it's harder, but the viewing angles and scale are basically all wrong (for me, other set-ups may vary I guess),

Also, it is different to someone using CSA/ASM. Those aids provide a mechanism to compensate for the lack of tactile feedback that otherwise exists in real-life. You could argue that different views give you different amounts of information, but they don't alter the inputs you've made to the game.

So I feel the only people who really have an argument here are those who drive in cockpit view with no assist and try to mimic being in a real-life race car.
I bet you that's a very small number of people.

Well that's great, I feel the only people here who really have an argument are those being sensible about it.

 

[RFSnake]

I think it all boils down to "non-assist" users feel humiliated when beaten by someone who uses assists..LOL

In a first person shooter, its not fun to lose against someone with aim assist. Some assists do feature that exact same problem. Sure, the mouse user might still have a higher accuracy regarding headshots, but if he misses, he misses. Controller players usualy have assists that allows them to miss the shot by correcting it to still be a hit.
There is a reason why these are normaly seperated withing games. And why in a mixed situation (controller usage on a pc) the controller suddenly loses all the assists.

 

[Rinsky]

I think you must be thinking of Chase cam or hood/roof cam, because bumper cam is like trying to type when you have invisible hands. I personally find cockpit cam like trying to drive from the backseat of a real car, with most of the windscreen blocked out -- sure it's harder, but the viewing angles and scale are basically all wrong (for me, other set-ups may vary I guess),

Also, it is different to someone using CSA/ASM. Those aids provide a mechanism to compensate for the lack of tactile feedback that otherwise exists in real-life. You could argue that different views give you different amounts of information, but they don't alter the inputs you've made to the game.



Well that's great, I feel the only people here who really have an argument are those being sensible about it.

Sorry I'm not 100% sure on what the view is called. I always referred to it as bumper cam.

I know it's not the same as an assist that makes the car handle different or better but it is definitely a view assist that has big advantage over cockpit view. It is just not realistic and is used because it's advantage over the others.

I feel if people are going to use this to their advantage Then they have no leg to stand on when it comes to others and how they play the game.

 

[Shottah072]

Sorry I'm not 100% sure on what the view is called. I always referred to it as bumper cam.
View attachment 704153

I know it's not the same as an assist that makes the car handle different or better but it is definitely a view assist that has big advantage over cockpit view. It is just not realistic and is used because it's advantage over the others.

I feel if people are going to use this to their advantage Then they have no leg to stand on when it comes to others and how they play the game.

I drive cockpit view with abs only do i qualify to have a argument ? Lol

I dont think its that much of a disadvantage tbh, its more a matter of what your used to really.

But you need to set it up right for cockpit view.

 

[Lord Protector]

PD needs to add more daily races, at least one, same as the "C" race which is basically 10 normal-track-laps, with aids prohibited.

 

[Rinsky]

I drive cockpit view with abs only do i qualify to have a argument ? Lol

I dont think its that much of a disadvantage tbh, its more a matter of what your used to really.

But you need to set it up right for cockpit view.

Ok you qualify for the argument

I find with myself that it's much easier to corner closer and to run a smoother line outside of cockpit view. It's definitely more challenging for me to drive cockpit view and that's why I like it so much better. It's definitely a disadvantage in online racing.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Sorry I'm not 100% sure on what the view is called. I always referred to it as bumper cam.
View attachment 704153

Yeah, that's what I'd call bumper cam too... it's what I use, and have done for 20 years. I've always used it because I find it heightens the sensation of speed.

I'm not sure you can really see much more with bumper cam than cockpit view though? I could be wrong on that to be fair.

It's not actually a bumper cam anyway though, drive something like the Z4 and then the Sambabus back to back and you'll understand one of the key differences straightaway. In Bumpercam, you can see no part of your car - but, crucially the car is still there... judging distance from your viewpoint, to the car in front takes skill - because your bumper will hit the car before the camera does. Judging where the sides of your car are is still a skill, the only point of reference is where the edge of the road intersects the edge of your TV... in both these respects it's possibly the same as cockpit cam, Chase Cam and Hood/Roof cam on the otherhand, do show more of your car, thereby making it easier to judge... both I think offer higher POV too, so in those cases you do get a better view of the road ahead too, whereas I think the elevation of the camera in bumper cam isn't that high.

 

[LordDrift]

So this brings up my question for all those people who complain about others using driving assist.
How many of you drive with the bumper cam?
In my opinion it's probably the biggest made up assist in the game. It is an unrealistic view to give others a huge advantage of seeing the whole track and the cars around them compared to the realistic cockpit view that can obstructs your view of the track and cars around you.

It is absolutely no different than someone else who is using CSA or ASM because both are made up assist just like bumper cam.

So I feel the only people who really have an argument here are those who drive in cockpit view with no assist and try to mimic being in a real-life race car.
I bet you that's a very small number of people.

I think you're wrong about that in terms of cockpit users vs no assists. I'm actually for locking in cockpit view as a class requirement. That said , it boils down to what some want to get out of the game. Some want the most realism possible, some want to win or be competitive at all cost (and by any means nesessary) and there are others that just want to treat the game like n4s. The problem is these groups should not be allowed to race together if at all possible. I drive cockpit and it's absurd the gaps I see people go for, then I tried bumper for a week and found my self going for the same gaps and understood why. This is not good.

I'll continue to enjoy the game regardless of what others do until they start smashing into me. Fact is some foljs take the game seriously and some don't. These folks shouldn't have to participate in the same event.

 

[FerrellJ]

I feel if people are going to use this to their advantage Then they have no leg to stand on when it comes to others and how they play the game.

Ironically, I find that I tend to run faster laps in cockpit view in all racing games. I only use bumper view for the sake of others. I know you're being tongue in cheek but I would hardly call it an assist. It's an assist sure- for you and everyone else around me on the track. It makes up for the fact that, when driving a real car, I have a neck.

And when playing on PC where I can use VR, I exclusively use cockpit view. It would be strange to do otherwise (and probably also vomit-inducing).

 

[phl0w]

If something is legal, use it and abuse it if it gives you the optimal chance of success. Whether some should or should not be legal is another matter entirely.

On a related note, this is good reading for how highly competitive players think: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Finally someone who has read David Sirlin. I paraphrased or quoted from his book on a couple occasions on these boards usually regarding driving assists or forced cockpit view, but alas, noone responded. I am under the impression hardly anyone has read it, despite its being the benchmark for anyone into competitive games/gaming. Well this, and Theory of Fun for Game Design by Raph Koster.
That said, I am on the same page as Sirlin. Anything that's legal is allowed in an unvalued way. It's what every real life athlete in their right minds do when they compete. There's no moral high ground in handicapping oneself so to speak.

 

[Rinsky]

I think you're wrong about that in terms of cockpit users vs no assists. I'm actually for locking in cockpit view as a class requirement. That said , it boils down to what some want to get out of the game. Some want the most realism possible, some want to win or be competitive at all cost (and by any means nesessary) and there are others that just want to treat the game like n4s. The problem is these groups should not be allowed to race together if at all possible. I drive cockpit and it's absurd the gaps I see people go for, then I tried bumper for a week and found my self going for the same gaps and understood why. This is not good.

I'll continue to enjoy the game regardless of what others do until they start smashing into me. Fact is some foljs take the game seriously and some don't. These folks shouldn't have to participate in the same event.

I would definitely prefer an all cockpit view class. It's Just like you said about the going for gaps you wouldn't try in cockpit view. There is an advantage to running bumper cam.

Ironically, I find that I tend to run faster laps in cockpit view in all racing games. I only use bumper view for the sake of others. I know you're being tongue in cheek but I would hardly call it an assist. It's an assist sure- for you and everyone else around me on the track. It makes up for the fact that, when driving a real car, I have a neck.

And when playing on PC where I can use VR, I exclusively use cockpit view. It would be strange to do otherwise (and probably also vomit-inducing).

Yeah I guess maybe assist is the wrong term to use. But you got what I was saying.
The people upset at those who use driver assist always call it unrealistic and my point was so is bumper cam and offers an advantage over cockpit view. They somehow feel the need to put others down for driving with whatever options make them a better driver all while they are doing the exact same thing.

 

[TenderLoins]

So this brings up my question for all those people who complain about others using driving assist.
How many of you drive with the bumper cam?
In my opinion it's probably the biggest made up assist in the game. It is an unrealistic view to give others a huge advantage of seeing the whole track and the cars around them compared to the realistic cockpit view that can obstructs your view of the track and cars around you.

It is absolutely no different than someone else who is using CSA or ASM because both are made up assist just like bumper cam.

So I feel the only people who really have an argument here are those who drive in cockpit view with no assist and try to mimic being in a real-life race car.
I bet you that's a very small number of people.

Bumper cam is cockpit view without the cockpit.

There is absolutely nothing that is realistic about how cockpit view is implemented in this game when playing on a single 2 dimensional screen. Blind spots are exaggerated, field of view is terrible, and mirrors are mostly useless.

Using cockpit view is a self-imposed handicap and should stay that way. This is a racing “Game”. Until you can sit in an actual cockpit where the windows are screens, No in game view is going to be realistic.

As for the other assists, use what you like and ignore the masochists who insist on driving without them.

I use bumper cam, ABS, and TC (GR3). I don’t feel bad about it and I’m not going to criticize people for using what they like or need. If it keeps you from running into me and others, they are doing whar they are intended to do.

 

[PJTierney]

Finally someone who has read David Sirlin. I paraphrased or quoted from his book on a couple occasions on these boards usually regarding driving assists or forced cockpit view, but alas, noone responded. I am under the impression hardly anyone has read it, despite its being the benchmark for anyone into competitive games/gaming. Well this, and Theory of Fun for Game Design by Raph Koster.
That said, I am on the same page as Sirlin. Anything that's legal is allowed in an unvalued way. It's what every real life athlete in their right minds do when they compete. There's no moral high ground in handicapping oneself so to speak.

Sirlin's work is more widely known amongst fighting game enthusiasts and I introduced it to a trading card game audience in 2008.

I've had this quote in my Xbox profile for about 7 years now

That being said "playing to win" isn't and shouldn't always be the ultimate goal of a player. If somebody is playing to immerse themselves in a game or achieve a specific goal, then competitive mindsets go out the window.

That being said, if you do play to win, play to win. Don't handicap yourself by playing to rules that "the game" doesn't care about.

 

[Rinsky]

Bumper cam is cockpit view without the cockpit.

There is absolutely nothing that is realistic about how cockpit view is implemented in this game when playing on a single 2 dimensional screen. Blind spots are exaggerated, field of view is terrible, and mirrors are mostly useless.

Using cockpit view is a self-imposed handicap and should stay that way. This is a racing “Game”. Until you can sit in an actual cockpit where the windows are screens, No in game view is going to be realistic.

As for the other assists, use what you like and ignore the masochists who insist on driving without them.

I use bumper cam, ABS, and TC (GR3). I don’t feel bad about it and I’m not going to criticize people for using what they like or need. If it keeps you from running into me and others, they are doing whar they are intended to do.

It's more realistic than this.

At no time do I see people strapped to the bumper, windshield or whatever view people like to call it. As I've said before cockpit view is more realistic and yes you have to turn your drivatars head to see out of the mirrors Just like you have to turn your head to see out of them in real life. It is GT's best interpretation of the most realistic view.

Anyway I expect people to defend using bumper cam view as if there is no advantage to it when there really is.
However you don't fall into the category of people I was referring to. You are like the many of us who use whatever is necessary to enjoy the game.

 

[marcvic]

I always use ABS on weak, and set TC to 1 or 0, depending on the car. I usually do Sport races with TC on 1, unless I'm in an FF or lower powered vehicle - then I set it to 0.

I don't have a problem competing with people that use more assists.

I think it would be an issue if people were using steering correction or auto drive type assists for the FIA events. I don't think they belong in that level of competition.

 

[John Crellin]

Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet while racing is using an assist. I ALWAYS wear a helmet with no assists. I can't stand when people overtake me because they are not handicapped like I am with my helmet on. I can barely see the TV screen but at least it is more realistic. I'm not competitive but I'm more safe than any of you. It should be a rule that you have to wear a helmet in sport mode. I'm gonna make a lobby that only allows helmet wearers.

 

[NommyNom]

It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile (or what view you use)..

 

[Gr8_Lakes]

Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet while racing is using an assist. I ALWAYS wear a helmet with no assists. I can't stand when people overtake me because they are not handicapped like I am with my helmet on. I can barely see the TV screen but at least it is more realistic. I'm not competitive but I'm more safe than any of you. It should be a rule that you have to wear a helmet in sport mode. I'm gonna make a lobby that only allows helmet wearers.

My wife says we should have to suit up in fireproof suits and gloves, helmet, and then crank the furnace up to about 98* Fahrenheit (36* Celsius) to be realistic.

 

[Rinsky]

My wife says we should have to suit up in fireproof suits and gloves, helmet, and then crank the furnace up to about 98* Fahrenheit (36* Celsius) to be realistic.

I think I would quit playing at that point or find another wife.
Something tells me the first option is the better choice.

 

[LordDrift]

I would definitely prefer an all cockpit view class. It's Just like you said about the going for gaps you wouldn't try in cockpit view. There is an advantage to running bumper cam.




Yeah I guess maybe assist is the wrong term to use. But you got what I was saying.
The people upset at those who use driver assist always call it unrealistic and my point was so is bumper cam and offers an advantage over cockpit view. They somehow feel the need to put others down for driving with whatever options make them a better driver all while they are doing the exact same thing.

But assists don't make you a better driver

 

[LordDrift]

It's more realistic than this.
View attachment 704176

At no time do I see people strapped to the bumper, windshield or whatever view people like to call it. As I've said before cockpit view is more realistic and yes you have to turn your drivatars head to see out of the mirrors Just like you have to turn your head to see out of them in real life. It is GT's best interpretation of the most realistic view.

Anyway I expect people to defend using bumper cam view as if there is no advantage to it when there really is.
However you don't fall into the category of people I was referring to. You are like the many of us who use whatever is necessary to enjoy the game.

My lap times increased with bumper cam from cockpit cam, but at the time I playing in 9 ft from a 120" screen. Now I'm on a proper rig with a 42 in screen butted against the wheel base more optimal fov dialed and my times are even better. Plus I kept tapping bumpers with the bumper cam. There are some advantages but the biggest is the game is gorgeous with bumper cam, after a while though I realised it wasn't nearly as immersive as cockpit cam. I'm looking to be immersed.

 

[cleanLX]

"my" opinion is that somewhere in between cockpit and bumper is a true representation of the view from inside the car.
When I'm driving in real life I have to glance down to see the steering wheel/dash/gauges/fenders, they do not take up 60% of my field.
PD seemingly wants to make "in car" be art and an impressive display of their ability to model, and it certainly is, but I'm not about to give up my field of vision for some pretty stuff. Maybe if they assigned a button to push that raised the dash/fenders etc into the view, then lowered upon releasing the button that would simulate looking down. Likewise i have to look up to see the rear view... don't want a button for that tho, so i guess I'll settle for it taking up FOV.
I do very much enjoy "playing" with cockpit view, but when I want to race/go fast (for me, so, relative terms) I use bumper.
I've seen some "rig" setups that could convince me to use nothing but cockpit, but, for my single TV and sitting in a chair 6+ feet away, bumper is more realistic.

@LordDrift posted before me... he types fast...

 

[Draggon]

I read something over on the GT6 forum recently that sort of addressed this. It pointed out that the best drivers might not really be the best "drivers" at all, just the best at playing the game within the parameters as designed by PD. If something is allowed in the game, there's no reason not to use it if you like. I do know some very fast people who either don't drive in real life, or are over their head when they get behind a steering wheel.

 

[paul82]

If the guy brakes early and you are fixating on brake cones it could be worse. You got to use judgement based on that specific driver and corner instead of fixating on brake cones. IMO I don't care if people use them , just your reason for is odd to me. At least these penalize you if u are reliant on them then they suddenly disappear or god forbid you run over one that's been knocked over.

dont worry mr drift theres been no stay cone deaths yet!

 

[Gr8_Lakes]

I think I would quit playing at that point or find another wife.
Something tells me the first option is the better choice.

This is her argument why it's still "video-gaming". However, she bought my PS4 as a B'day gift, got me VR for X'mas, and tolerates a full rig in the basement family room. I think she's a keeper.

 

[zaxs]

Sadly, GTS doesn't rewarding driving without assists.

Just sometimes, like on Brands Hatch with Gr.4 class, I'm actually feeling that I'm faster without TCS.
This doesn't mean for ABS, it's terrible without it.

Only asking PD, why are they writing that aids are cutting car's power?

In FM7 (as both 5 & 6) I feel advantage of turning off all assists.
Driving both GTS and FM7 every day so no talking about anything else than clear question:

Who is wrong?