What is the point of it all?

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by BKGlover, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. BKGlover

    BKGlover

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    I know this is gonna sound like I'm trying to trash those who get into the hardware side, but after years of playing games, having had wheels myself, and jumping on demo rigs time and again, I continue to fail in understanding why they are such a big deal.

    I can get the "realism" argument as an idea, but in my admittedly spotty experiences, either the input delay, the jerky and/or inconsistent ffb, or just the awkwardness of the wheel or pedals kicks that in the head. I imagine that some of it is down to me being stone handed and empty headed, and some down to most everything I've used being the cheapest stuff on the market, but even so there's still the fact that you are sitting in a seat in front of a screen, and that I have trouble getting around.
     
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  2. insert coin

    insert coin

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    The point is to have fun with whatever you are racing with.
     
  3. Sage Ages

    Sage Ages

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    Just to suffer?
     
  4. kikie

    kikie Premium

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    I have the same problem and that is the main reason why I haven't bought anything more expensive than a T300RS.
     
  5. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    I guess wheels work better since they can be more reliable vs. controllers in this case because, if for example, controllers like the DS3 have faulty analog sticks when they're used, then it will ruin the playing of racing experience for players.

    I have my old DFGT wheel for six years now and it's still functioning compared to the brand new original DS3 controller that I bought four years ago. It's not a perfect wheel at all but I can say it gets the job done decently.
     
  6. kikie

    kikie Premium

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    The only thing I really want is a decent load cell brake pedal and shifter.
     
  7. Outspacer

    Outspacer

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    Ha! I do and I don't!

    I do because heel-toe etc is something I could actually learn and practise in a sim that would apply to real world.

    I don't because my current setup is comfortable to use without shoes and I have plenty of fun just using paddles.

    So the answer is... two rigs :idea:
     
  8. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    So no wheel at all? Just the pedals and shifter are good enough for ya? :lol:
     
  9. kikie

    kikie Premium

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    Indeed! I'm that good.
     
  10. bokimoto

    bokimoto

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    It's 'Driving Games' ... Do you drive your car in real life with a little plastic box with pushbuttons?

    It's driving, not pushing buttons. That's why.
     
  11. kikie

    kikie Premium

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    The point is having fun but spending all that money on expensive hardware is no fun. :D

    Having fun with cheaper hardware is even more fun. :p
     
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  12. BKGlover

    BKGlover

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    Except this doesn't fully apply. Is your car a television screen attached to some tubing and a seat?

    Also a vehicle is a full sensory device, a game can only simulate something so much, beyond that it's going off programming.
     
  13. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    For all you know, it's the player's choice whether he wants to play racing games with a gaming steering wheel or not, regardless of what you're trying to point out here. I hope you can respect that.
     
  14. FPV MIC

    FPV MIC

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    Cheap wheels perform like toys... and if you have trouble getting your head around sitting in front of a screen with a wheel how do you go with sitting in front of a screen with a controller?

    Edited to add: I'd still rather have a cheap wheel than no wheel at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  15. BKGlover

    BKGlover

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    Yes. If I couldn't, I would be asking what I'm missing, though if I'm being accused of it, perhaps it's not worth the effort.

    The lesser input of a controller is what works for me. If anything, the controller allows me to focus on the screen. Feedback would be nice at times, but for the most part once I've figured out how a car handles, I can hone in closer. I'll never be considered fast, but I can control the car. The way games handle inputs can screw that up, but generally I can adjust for it.
     
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  16. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    Well, I don't know about you but prior to learning how to drive IRL, I used my gaming wheel to play racing games a lot and it helped me learning the basics, such as turning and braking when I started driving an actual car. At least it gave me an idea on how it feels doing it and there are some studies which say that virtual driving can help make a better driver in real life. So yeah, that's that.
     
  17. BKGlover

    BKGlover

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    Heard of it, been told it helps, never seen anyone do it in person, but I'm also in a rural so it's not hard to take kids out to the county roads and let them learn there, which is how I learned the solo driving. Had a off-road go-kart as well, but that never went on a public road.
     
  18. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    Ah I see. That makes sense but I live in an urban area where traffic is very prominent and the drivers here? My goodness. They're mostly undisciplined and uncivilized. :lol:

    At first, it was really challenging but was able to overcome it and adapt to the chaotic driving environment eventually. The virtual driving partly enabled me to become a good driver I can say. :)
     
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  19. FPV MIC

    FPV MIC

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    I would have thought a wheel would, because after-all a wheel is what steers most cars.

    BTW I use both DS4 and wheel , it depends on how lazy I am, and what game I'm playing.

    Also, if you have input lag you're using a very inferior wheel or TV. They don't have any more lag than a controller.


    I'm a perfect example of how sim racing with a wheel can help in real life. I lost my right leg in an MVA and with the help of sim racing a learnt to use my left foot to drive. Thresh hold braking and panic stops were my biggest issue to start with, which doesn't sound too big of a deal, but trust me when I say, when you've been driving with your right foot for 35 years old habits die hard, and I found myself still going for the brake with a leg that wasn't there. Now when I see a sim rig it looks odd to me to have the throttle on the right (not so much in my car, because that has two accelerators).
    Edit: This happened back in 2012.

    And while not alien fast, I still do alright with a K score of just above 90 :) https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=1046678


    Off topic but I still look for my other shoe every now and then, or try and kick something to move it with my leg that isn't there :O:dopey:
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  20. Shinu

    Shinu Premium

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    I'm quadriplegic
    It is ten times harder for me to steer with the analog stick then a wheel.

    Only problem is .. unlike FPV_MIC - I'm slow :D

    G25 helped me develop movement in my left foot for the first time in my life (all those years ago)
     
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  21. kikie

    kikie Premium

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    Very sorry to hear that. News like this always makes me feel sad.



    Nice, a gaming toy as therapy.




    I hope this post is not wrong?
     
  22. Shinu

    Shinu Premium

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    Nah everything is cool.

    Sometimes I can justify buying new stuff with - "it is good for me"


    Joking aside I noticed that when I had no time for simracing (pre GTsport) for a couple of years my legs started shaking again.

    For some people it is for sure a good way of getting some strength/coordination back. While racing you forget about everything except the goal and you can quantify your results.

    There are stuff that I want to learn (like trail braking .. I think that is where I lose a lot of time) but I don't know if it is physically possible for me.




    Back on topic:

    Wheel gives me consistency
    Rig gives me comfort - previously pedals would move, seating position would change and now I can forget all that.

    Difference between low end wheel and high end?

    For me my first wheel was this one:
    [​IMG]

    For the life of me I could not press those pedals at all (I think the problem was how flat they were), so I just used the padles on the wheel.

    When I got myself a G25 everything changed (At first I could not press them all the way but after lots of practicing everything changed and gave me hope)

    You could argue that nowdays even low end wheels like T150 are quite good (Maybe even I could use those pedals now that my legs are in better shape)


    But with Fanatec I now have:

    Setting on the fly (On some tracks if my wrist is acting up I can decrease the steering angle)
    Dual clutch system (I can use those as accelerator/brake. Sometimes my legs cramp so it gives me the ability to readjust while on the straight etc)
    Paddles that can shift up/down on both sides (on some corners when my one wrist acts up and I have to let go of the wheel I can shift with the other one)

    Smoothness, snappiness and strength are also pluses.



    As for - Do you need it all? Depends how much you simrace.
     
  23. kikie

    kikie Premium

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    Respect!

    :bowdown:



    Maybe one day I meet you on track and I will beat you. * :mischievous:


    :D




    * I need to buy better and more expensive stuff first. :p
     
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  24. Letadlo

    Letadlo

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    I have buyed racing seat and wheel because I can now drive like in real life :
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. user3392345

    user3392345 (Banned)

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    Immersion, its all about immersion:)
    Its not about being faster or better. We are enthusiasts, not gamer.
    If you dont have the ability to create this feeling inside yourself, you will dont understand why people buy crazy hardware.
    Looks like you dont have, thats why you ask that question.
     
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  26. FPV MIC

    FPV MIC

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    :tup: It's the same as buying high performance cars. Nobody needs them, but if you can afford them and that's what makes you happy and it's what you like to do with your spare time then why not.
     
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  27. PocketZeven

    PocketZeven

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    A Cheap 10 dollar quartz watch tells better time then a 17 million dollar Paul Newman Rolex Daytona.
     
  28. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    It's a fair question, honestly.

    Yes, nothing quite replicates actually driving a car, full-tilt, in the real world. But not being able to perfectly emulate something shouldn't be a reason to avoid doing it at all, really.

    I think it very much depends on how you get started too. For me, I was playing racing games and becoming halfway decent with them before I had my license. At first, it was driving that felt strange and foreign! But for those that get into driving sims after established years of real-world driving, it can be hard to adapt to the lack of sensory hints. That makes a lot of sense.

    At TwitchCon last week I was lucky enough to use a motion rig with Assetto Corsa. It reminded me why I like the game so much: when there's a good setup it feels so utterly natural. Sure, a part of why I kept coming back was to maintain my position at the top of the leader board (I ended up winning that day :sly: ), but it was also just a blast to drive with. Everything I've learned from driving on track at various events over the last two years translated.

    I can't replicate that entire experience at home, but I'd rather work with what I have than to skip it altogether. I imagine that's the same reasoning people have for going to trackdays in their current cars, instead of waiting for the day they could, maybe, one day, do it in their dream car. :)
     
  29. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    I actually started out playing racing games mostly with wheels, and did so for years. I also believe I've honed my real world driving on Live for Speed with my G25 -- it's how I learned to heel-toe downshift. But in recent years I have played everything with a controller.

    There are advantages and disadvantages, and lately I have not bothered with a wheel because of its disadvantages -- artificial console incompatibility ($ for a DriveHub), no good mounting place in my current gaming space, and complaints of poor or finicky FFB in the games I'd be most likely to play. Like @BKGlover, if I can't get quality FFB out of a game then I generally would rather just skip the wheel, because it's going to be more of a distracting annoyance than anything.

    If "immersion" is the goal, awkward FFB is a total immersion-breaker for sure. So are any awkward physics quirks, which are more glaring with a wheel because they conflict with muscle memory from real driving experience. A quality sim with a quality wheel experience is excellent -- the difference in control fidelity is the most obvious advantage -- but decent analog stick steering covers things nicely.

    It certainly doesn't strike me as something so important as it is sometimes made out to be. I consider myself a hobbyist, an enthusiast; I am a diehard manual transmission driver. Yet I don't mind playing driving/racing sims with a controller. They're videogames. You don't steer a real car with an analog stick, you don't draw a real longbow by squeezing a trigger, and you don't climb a real ladder by mashing a button...so what?

    Choose whatever suits your setup, the game(s) you're playing, and your preferences or motivations in playing. My G25 still gets used on Live for Speed once in a blue moon, and I hope some sim developer will give me a good use for it again.
     
  30. Z Crazy

    Z Crazy

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    I agree, its not all about replicating a very specific feeling. When you look past the realism comparisons, there is still a massive value in today's games. I've noticed in recent years, when I track my car at a tracks that are available on a game, I get faster MUCH quicker than those tracks I can't "practice" on. The track modeling and car behaviors are close enough to be of great assistance. Sure, it doesn't relate inch for inch IMO, but its close enough to make significant improvements without excessive risk to my car. I've also seen how sim'ing has improved other types of racing I do. In my case, my RC racing has really reaped the benefits of my sim'ing. The ability to practice ripping off near identical laps at 9/10ths is invaluable.

    But back to the OP's sentiment, just like EVERYTHING in this world, people will take it to another level given the chance. I'm extremely competitive and love tech so that makes me a very hardware-centric guy. Is it worth it... nah not really, but does it make me happy... yeah. That's all that really matters.

    But like you said... above all, enjoy it for what it is.
     
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