What kind of TV are you playing GT4 on?

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Simcoeace
I noticed that there was some kind of discussion of this back in early 2005, but TV technology has moved along a lot since then!

I have been looking for a new HDTV to use for GT4 (& eventually GT5). Portability is an important factor or me: I tried a variety of TVs from a 15" to a 22" & ended up with the 15" because I found that when playing GT4 with my G25 wheel set-up, sitting with the smaller TV up real close was just as good as a bigger TV further away (& placing the 22" TV up as close as the 15" didn't look as good). I'm wondering if the quality of the graphics in GT5 will allow a more "up close & personal" view?

Any opinions?
 
As you pointed out, the size of the screen is not what determines how "large" the image looks. This is determined by how much of your field of vision is filled with the screen area. So the closer you are to the screen, the bigger the image will appear. The easiest and most common way of calculating this is to divide the distance between you and the screen by the width of the screen.

So for instance, with the example you gave, a 22" widescreen display would have a width of 19" and from 3' away, you'd have a distance to width ratio of 1.9 (close to ideal viewing angle, smaller = larger image but too small and you'll have to constantly pan to see the entire image in your field of vision, like IMAX films which if you are sitting in the center of the theater usually have a D:W of about .9 - THX generally recommends a D:W of about 1.5).

By comparison, if you sat just 2' away from a 15" widescreen display, it would appear slightly larger than the 22" display from 3' away, as it would have a D:W ration of 1.8 and thus the 15" screen would fill slightly more of your field of vision.

D:W ratios are key to not only understanding what size of display you really need, but will help a great deal in optimizing your system for your needs.

Now, one word of caution, with most smaller displays, pixel grids (the vertical and horizontal lines you see that separate each pixel) become much more noticeable. So this is can be a big distraction if you are sitting too close to displays with larger than normal pixel grids.

The other problem with 15" screens is that I personally have never seen one that can display a 1080p signal in its native resolution. This means it'll have to scale the resolution down to the native resolution of the display, and for 720p 15" screen that would mean a loss of more than 50% of the resolution.

So due to the lower resolution and larger pixel grid, I personally would not recommend a 15" screen for most situations.

Also, while it is true that a 15" screen from 2' away will make the images larger than if you were watching even a 40" display from 6' away... The problem for some is that by sitting that close, it generally means only one person can enjoy the view. :)

This is one of the benefits to larger screens is that if you have more than one or more people watching the display, you'll want a large enough screen so that you can sit far enough back for your own comfort and the comfort of others.

That said, as you mentioned portability as being a high priority, and if you can live with the pixel grid and lower resolution, then a 15" screen sounds like a good match for your particular needs. Not only are 15" LCD screens small and compact, you can get them for under $100. 👍
 
21" viewable CRT from early to mid eighties, I think, judging by the state of it and the design.

Doesn't remember channel tuning settings, and the on/off button is dodgy so you can only turn it off at the plug. Oh, and it loves to go crazy with red if the contrast is set anywhere near decent amounts of colour.

The perfect gaming TV, I reckon ;)
 
To answer the thread title: What kind of TV are you playing GT4 on?


  • 98" 1080p FP LCD from 10' away (1.4 D:W) Theater
  • 47" _720p RP DLP from 12' away (3.5 D:W) Family Room
  • 42" 1080p DV LCD from 11' away (3.6 D:W) Bedroom
  • 21" _480i DV CRT from _3' away (2.0 D:W) Office

I'm wondering if the quality of the graphics in GT5 will allow a more "up close & personal" view?
Yes, but you'll also enjoy it more using a higher quality display capable of showing 100% of the native resolution, as well as one with little to no pixel grid, excellent black level, contrast, shadow detail, accurate & wide color gamut, etc.
 
37" Sanyo at the foot of ma' bed. Not bad, I must say. But it's only SD. i'm looking to get a 37"-40" HDTV sooner than later. Prolly gonna put it in the same place as the Sanyo, but I could mount it to the wall....
 
an old 16x12 in. Toshiba boxy TV
I actually like it a lot. Picture's clear, noise is good, and the size is fine because I only sit about 3 ft. away anyway.
 
98" 1080p FP LCD from 10' away (1.4 D:W) Theater
47" _720p RP DLP from 12' away (3.5 D:W) Family Room
40" 1080p DV LCD from 11' away (3.8 D:W) Bedroom
21" _480i DV CRT from _3' away (2.0 D:W) Office

That's a lot of big TVS!

I'm not sure I understand at all, your point about the "grid" on the smaller scale HDTVs. Also, I have heard that the visible difference between 720p & 1080p is negligible?

I have a 37" 720p LCD, but play GT4 & EPR on a 13" SD Trutech :cool: because I only play using my G25 set up, with the screen a couple of feet in front of me. I'm not convinced that GT4 in HD is actually better than in SD. The small SDTV renders a slightly blurry but quite real looking image, whereas I find that 1080i on the larger HDTV makes the image sharper, crisper, but somehow more obviously fake looking. EPR, like most non-HD material, definitely looks better on a SDTV.

I have experimented with a few different smaller (cheap) HDTVs for my G25 set-up, but always find the image quality somewhat disappointing. I'm assuming that GT5 will look much better in HD than GT4, however...
 
17'' SABA from mid or late 90's. I don't complain, it's got a clear picture which is good enough for me.
I've also got a 13'' Samsung tv from '99 or '00. But I never use it.
 
I'm not sure I understand at all, your point about the "grid" on the smaller scale HDTVs.
Several reasons, but the most common one is that for a given panel design, the "grid" is a fixed size, so whether it is for a 15" TV or a 40" TV the physical dimensions of the grid lines themselves are the same, while the pixel sizes will be different. This means if you sit too close to the screen... as you would have to with a small screen to achieve the same viewing angle or D:W as a larger screen, then the grid will be much more noticeable.

10961.jpg


This is one of the advantages of having a larger screen, as you can sit farther from the screen to achieve the same D:W and so the pixel grid in most cases will "disappear".


Also, I have heard that the visible difference between 720p & 1080p is negligible?
I personally own both, and have done lots of shootouts and comparisons of not just my own, but many models of 720p & 1080p displays and I can say without any doubt who ever told you that was wrong or wasn't comparing how 1920x1080 images look on both a 720p and 1080p display.

Consider for a moment that a 720p display has just over 900,000 pixels, while a 1080p display has over 2 million pixels. Would you say that there is only a negligible difference between a .9 megapixel camera and a 2 megapixel camera? Having over 100% more resolution is not insignificant, especially when you consider most film is captured on 35m film stock that is capable of achieving much higher resolutions than even 1920x1080.

With 1920x1080 sources like many movies and games, that have a lot of fine detail, you'll definitely see a big difference between watching them on a 720p and a 1080p display. Absolutely no doubt about that.

Now obviously if you are looking at 480p and 720p material on a 1080p dispay, then of course it will only be marginally better depending on the quality of the video processor... just like if you were watching DVD on a 720p display or a 480p display. Because DVD is still only 720x480, the difference is going to be negligible. But just like how many upscaling DVD players, like the PS3, and HD displays have excellent video processors that can "enhance" the quality of a DVD or any source with a lower resolution than the display's native resolution, the same is true for 1080p displays that scale up 720p sources... so again, that's yet another advantage of 1080p displays over 720p displays.


I'm not convinced that GT4 in HD is actually better than in SD.
GT4 can indeed be better in HD, but it would of course depend on the quality of the HD display and the video processor doing the scaling.


I have experimented with a few different smaller (cheap) HDTVs for my G25 set-up, but always find the image quality somewhat disappointing.
Which again points out the fact that resolution is but one factor. Most "cheap" HD displays are not likely going to have high quality video processors, as well as many other key components that determine the over all picture quality.

As I said in my last post, things like pixel grid, excellent black level, contrast, shadow detail, accurate & wide color gamut, etc are not related to the resolution of the display. This is why for those on a tighter budget, I often recommend they buy a higher quality 720p display over a entry level 1080p display. While they wont benefit from the higher resolution, they may very well get a higher over all picture quality.


I'm assuming that GT5 will look much better in HD than GT4
There is no need to assume, as even GT:HD and most of the PS3 games already out look significantly better than GT4 in HD. 👍
 
25" Sony CRT (4:3 aspect) from 6 or 7 feet away. Although at one of the UKGTP's i played it from around 3 or 4 foot away without it being uncomfortable to the eye.
 
I have experimented with a few different smaller (cheap) HDTVs for my G25 set-up, but always find the image quality somewhat disappointing.
Which again points out the fact that resolution is but one factor. Most "cheap" HD displays are not likely going to have high quality video processors, as well as many other key components that determine the over all picture quality.

As I said in my last post, things like pixel grid, excellent black level, contrast, shadow detail, accurate & wide color gamut, etc are not related to the resolution of the display. This is why for those on a tighter budget, I often recommend they buy a higher quality 720p display over a entry level 1080p display. While they wont benefit from the higher resolution, they may very well get a higher over all picture quality.
Just to add some additional first hand experience with this, I know for a fact that the 47" 720p Samsung DLP RP-HDTV in the family room has a better over all picture quality than the 42" 1080p Vizio LCD DV-HDTV in our bedroom. The only reason I got the 1080p TV for the bedroom is that it was so darn cheap, and was half the cost of my 47" 720p TV! (click HERE for the full story)

On the other hand, I also know for a fact that my 1080p Panasonic LCD front projector is superior to both the 720p Samsung and 1080p Vizio. So again, while resolution is important, there are many other things that determine the over all picture quality of a display.

I think it's a mistake to get too focused on just one or two specs, which these days is often the case as most manufacturers and consumers seem to focus all their attention on resolution and contrast, when in reality, there are so many other things about a TV that can have just as much if not a larger impact on the quality of the picture.
 
48cm (20") 4:3 aspect standard teac tv about 10 years old.

sitting about 1.5 meters from screen.

sometimes if the cat is on my couch i have to sit at the front and then about 1 metre away. dont know if it is better or not cause i can see quite well from the bumber view but i have to look around the screen for all the info.
 
Digital: forgive my ignorance, but isn't it the "grid" that encloses the pixels?

It seems to me that I have read repeatedly in audio visual reviews, that, in practice, there is little discernable difference between 720p & 1080p. With regard to resolution: the eye is only capable of perceiving so much. There may be a noticeable difference between 1 mega pixel & 2 mega pixels, but not between 4 mega pixels & 8 mega pixels unless the image is blown up to a significantly larger size.

The reason I say GT4 may not neccessarily look better in HD than SD, simply has to do with the quality of the graphic information in GT4. IMO GT4 looks pretty good in SD because the shortcomings of the graphics are not so obvious eg. the trees look less distinct & more "real"in SD, whereas in HD you can clearly see the details of the trees, but you can see that the detail is not "realistic" looking. This, of course, will probably be different with GT5, where the graphics information will certainly be much more detailed.

I take your point about better quality HDTVs looking better regardless of resolution. The problem is the smaller (15" - 20") HDTvs that you can buy these days tend not to be that great quality. For most games played with a controller, a big TV is great, but driving with a wheel set-up, a large TV is not neccessarily an advantage as far as I can see. Having a smaller TV set up close to the wheel means the whole paraphenalia is less obtrusive.
 
Digital: forgive my ignorance, but isn't it the "grid" that encloses the pixels?
Yes. As I said before, and as shown in that picture I posted, they are the vertical and horizontal lines that separate each pixel. Better technology and higher quality displays have smaller to no pixel grid. Those with pixel grids, the closer you are to the screen, the more noticeable the grid becomes. Traditionally LCD & Plasma have the largest grid lines, while DLP and LCoS have the smallest, and in some cases, none at all. CRT's do not have pixels, but depending on what type of CRT and how close you are to the screen, they will have very noticeable horizontal scan lines.


It seems to me that I have read repeatedly in audio visual reviews, that, in practice, there is little discernable difference between 720p & 1080p.
Then I would suggest stop reading those sources as they are clearly very misinformed ,or have some unspoken agenda, or they were unclear on what specific conditions they might show little discernable difference, or perhaps you misunderstood what they meant.


With regard to resolution: the eye is only capable of perceiving so much. There may be a noticeable difference between 1 mega pixel & 2 mega pixels, but not between 4 mega pixels & 8 mega pixels unless the image is blown up to a significantly larger size.
Well first of all the human vision system, although weak compared to some other species is quite extraordinary and can discern far more detail and resolution than even a 12 megapixel camera can capture when viewed at 2.0 D:W or closer. It is estimated that 70mm film can capture more detail equivalent to a 12 megapixel camera.

For comparison sake, IMAX films are captured on 70/65mm film stock... and I'm sure you can agree that IMAX films look especially more detailed than 35mm films. So in that case the human eye is distinguishing a significant difference between roughly 4 megapixels and 12 megapixels.

This is also why many directors and cinematographers are interested in "4K" (referring to a horizontal resolution of about 4,000) cameras, which capture between 8 and 12 megapixels per frame.

In addition, manufacturers like Sony and JVC have already designed and sold 4K projectors, many of which are being sold to commercial theaters. Mark Cuban for instance bought over 50 of Sony's SRX-R 4K SXRD projectors for his chain of Landmark Theatres two years ago, and since then there have been several new 4K projectors released. So yes, clearly there is a difference and a demand for higher resolution cameras and displays, even above 1080p.

However, I thought you were asking about 720p and 1080p, and in that case we are talking about the difference between .9 megapixels and 2 megapixels, and as you just said yourself...
There may be a noticeable difference between 1 mega pixel & 2 mega pixels
And yes, there is a very noticeable difference between 1 mega pixels and 2... when comparing images that were natively captured in 1920x1080... as explained already in the previous post.


The reason I say GT4 may not neccessarily look better in HD than SD, simply has to do with the quality of the graphic information in GT4. IMO GT4 looks pretty good in SD because the shortcomings of the graphics are not so obvious eg. the trees look less distinct & more "real"in SD, whereas in HD you can clearly see the details of the trees, but you can see that the detail is not "realistic" looking.
What you are talking about has nothing to do with the resolution but the distance one might want to be away from the screen so these low resolution "flaws" are less obvious.

An example of this is the classic art form of Pointillism. The closer you are to the painting the more dots you see and the harder it is to see what is shown in the painting. Step farther away and the dots begin to blend and then the picture "smoothes" out to form a distinguishable image. The same can be said for low-resolution images. The farther away you stand the "smoother" they will appear.

If you are feeding an HD display a SD signal, it isn't going to make it worse unless it has a poor video processor. If it has an excellent video processor it will actually make it better and thus allow you to sit closer to the screen without being distracted by the original low resolution of the source.


This, of course, will probably be different with GT5, where the graphics information will certainly be much more detailed.
Naturally. As I also already said, GT:HD already is head and shoulders more graphically enhanced than GT4 so there is no reason at all to even suggest or consider that the graphics in GT5:P or GT5 will not be significantly better than GT4. The same goes for most of the games currently out for the PS3.


I take your point about better quality HDTVs looking better regardless of resolution. The problem is the smaller (15" - 20") HDTvs that you can buy these days tend not to be that great quality.
Yes. That's an advantage to having a larger screen as you are more likely to find a higher quality display. However, some of the very best displays in the world are 27" professional grade CRT monitors, but they sell for as much as $20,000 and are primarily used for film editing, making digital intermediates, and telecine transfers, as these displays are capable of displaying as much as 5 megapixels worth of detail.


For most games played with a controller, a big TV is great, but driving with a wheel set-up, a large TV is not necessarily an advantage as far as I can see. Having a smaller TV set up close to the wheel means the whole paraphenalia is less obtrusive.
I think you'll find most people with wheels will disagree with you, even on GTP's own "wheel & cockpit" threads. In fact, with a controller, it is physically easier to sit closer to a screen, while using a wheel is naturally going to place you farther from the screen... thus a larger screen would compensate for the difference.

As far as obtrusive paraphernalia I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. If you are talking about the wheel, shifter, and pedals, actually having them farther from a large screen makes them less obtrusive rather than have them right up next to a smaller screen to achieve the same D:W. So again, this is another advantage of using a larger screen, especially for use with a wheel.

That said, there are certainly some excellent reasons for using small screens, like cost, space, and portability.
 
Great thread. D-N, thanks for all the info. I learn more in random threads than in hours searching for a specific topic.

I am currently using a 47" Panasonic rear-projection HD TV (PT47WX42), it's probably four years old or so. It displays in 1080i, not 1080p, and has no HDMI hookup, so I'm curious how GT5 will look. I've never done a direct comparison between 1080 i/p anyway-I just know GT4 looks better on my TV than almost any other I've seen.
 
Yes. As I said before, and as shown in that picture I posted, they are the vertical and horizontal lines that separate each pixel. Better technology and higher quality displays have smaller to no pixel grid. Those with pixel grids, the closer you are to the screen, the more noticeable the grid becomes. Traditionally LCD & Plasma have the largest grid lines, while DLP and LCoS have the smallest, and in some cases, none at all. CRT's do not have pixels, but depending on what type of CRT and how close you are to the screen, they will have very noticeable horizontal scan lines.

I hadn't noticed grids: I'll look more closely to see.

Then I would suggest stop reading those sources as they are clearly very misinformed ,or have some unspoken agenda, or they were unclear on what specific conditions they might show little discernable difference, or perhaps you misunderstood what they meant.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6661274-1.html

Summary: While this isn't the most scientific test, both Katzmaier and I agreed that, after scanning through Mission: Impossible III for an hour, it would be very difficult--practically impossible--for the average consumer to tell the difference between a high-definition image displayed on a 1080p-capable TV and one with lower native resolution at the screen sizes mentioned above. At larger screen sizes, the differences might become somewhat more apparent, especially if you sit close to the screen.

Reviewers like Katzmaier, who look at dozens of TVs over the course of the year, can see some very minor differences in picture sharpness when you step up to 1080p. How 1080i vs. 1080p plays out with video games--three PS3 launch titles offer native 1080p support--is less clear, but in the little time I've spent with the PS3, the differences seem very subtle and are ultimately tied into how good graphically the game looks to begin with. For instance, I saw Activision's Marvel: Ultimate Alliance on a 1080p Sony display, and the game looked decent, but it's not graphically stunning to begin with, so it wasn't completely amazing. By comparison, Resistance: Fall of Man looked great--even though the resolution is "only" 720p native, the PS3 exclusive makes far better use of the system's graphical horsepower than the Marvel game, which was simultaneously developed for all home consoles.

For comparison sake, IMAX films are captured on 70/65mm film stock... and I'm sure you can agree that IMAX films look especially more detailed than 35mm films. So in that case the human eye is distinguishing a significant difference between roughly 4 megapixels and 12 megapixels.

Isn't the point of IMax that it is projected on a huge screen where the detail can actually be noticed?

What you are talking about has nothing to do with the resolution but the distance one might want to be away from the screen so these low resolution "flaws" are less obvious.

No, I'm not sure that I'm talking about the same thing. The "flaws" have to do with the limited graphical detail of GT4: the trees are actually comprised of flat interlocked planes. This is more obvious in the sharper picture of 1080i than it is in the less precise picture of 480i. The detail is sharper - the higher resolution exposes the graphical "flaws" of GT4.

To extend your art example: a "blurry" but atmospheric landscape painting might look more "realistic" than a minutely detailed landscape painting.

I think you'll find most people with wheels will disagree with you, even on GTP's own "wheel & cockpit" threads. In fact, with a controller, it is physically easier to sit closer to a screen, while using a wheel is naturally going to place you farther from the screen... thus a larger screen would compensate for the difference.

I don't understand this point at all. I'm guessing typically people playing video games would sit in the comfort of a couch that is set up for TV viewing: perhaps 6 to 12 feet away, depending on the screen size. Using a wheel you are obliged to set it up on some kind of table (or cockpit) which is likely to be obtrusive in your main TV viewing area: unless you have a seperate gaming area with another large TV (which I'm sure some people do), having a smaller TV perched directly in from of your wheel in front of your wheel is the least obtrusive set up.

Anyway, I didn't start this thread to get into a lengthy technical discussion, but just to find out what other people's experiences were, to help me come to my own decision about what TV to get! With the PS2 & GT4 I'm perfectly happy with SDTV, except that CRTs are so bulky. In buying a more portable LCD HDTV I'm looking to get something that will work well with GT5 & the PS3...
 
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6661274-1.html

Summary: While this isn't the most scientific test, both Katzmaier and I agreed that, after scanning through Mission: Impossible III for an hour, it would be very difficult--practically impossible--for the average consumer to tell the difference between a high-definition image displayed on a 1080p-capable TV and one with lower native resolution at the screen sizes mentioned above. At larger screen sizes, the differences might become somewhat more apparent, especially if you sit close to the screen.
I would stop reading their comments then as they are way off the mark. There is a reason professionals use 5-12 megapixel displays, and why you'll find 1080p resolutions even on small monitors.


Isn't the point of IMax that it is projected on a huge screen where the detail can actually be noticed?
Not noticed, but appreciated even more, and better viewing arrangements, and superior sound systems, but even center seating at a typical IMAX theater is still only about 1.0 D:W, and besides, long before there were IMAX screens, there have been traditional 70mm films being made since the 50's starting with Oklahoma, and the are still shown today in standard movie houses and as expected look significantly better than their 35mm counterparts. Surprise surprise.

IMAX didn’t invent 70mm technology, they just use it.


No, I'm not sure that I'm talking about the same thing. The "flaws" have to do with the limited graphical detail of GT4: the trees are actually comprised of flat interlocked planes. This is more obvious in the sharper picture of 1080i than it is in the less precise picture of 480i. The detail is sharper - the higher resolution exposes the graphical "flaws" of GT4.
I think you are still missing the point, but I'm not sure what else I can add to make it any more clear especially as you now indicate that you don't want to get all technical.


I don't understand this point at all. I'm guessing typically people playing video games would sit in the comfort of a couch that is set up for TV viewing: perhaps 6 to 12 feet away, depending on the screen size. Using a wheel you are obliged to set it up on some kind of table (or cockpit) which is likely to be obtrusive in your main TV viewing area: unless you have a seperate gaming area with another large TV (which I'm sure some people do), having a smaller TV perched directly in from of your wheel in front of your wheel is the least obtrusive set up.
I guess that's up to personal opinion, but most of the wheel and cockpit set-ups I have seen are used with larger screens, at least larger than 22". I was merely pointing out that physically speaking it is easier to be closer to the screen with a controller than it is with a wheel.


Anyway, I didn't start this thread to get into a lengthy technical discussion, but just to find out what other people's experiences were, to help me come to my own decision about what TV to get!
OK. I was only trying to help, sorry.





Great thread. D-N, thanks for all the info. I learn more in random threads than in hours searching for a specific topic.
My pleasure. I’m just glad at least one person got some value from it. :)

I am currently using a 47" Panasonic rear-projection HD TV (PT47WX42), it's probably four years old or so. It displays in 1080i, not 1080p, and has no HDMI hookup, so I'm curious how GT5 will look. I've never done a direct comparison between 1080 i/p anyway-I just know GT4 looks better on my TV than almost any other I've seen.
That’s an excellent CRT with excellent black levels and color accuracy even by today’s standards and so I commend you on making such an excellent choice. 👍

And although I suspect at some point you’ll be upgrading it to a digital display, and most likely a 1080p with HDMI, I’m sure it has been and will continue to serve you very well, which at the end of the day, no matter what type and size of display we get, this is all we can hope for. 👍👍
 
Since you are currently discussing in this topic, Digital, may I ask the order of the three resolutions from worst to best? I'm talking about 720p, 1080i and 1080p. I know 1080p is highest, so I'm mostly asking for comparisons of 720p and 1080i.
 
Since you are currently discussing in this topic, Digital, may I ask the order of the three resolutions from worst to best? I'm talking about 720p, 1080i and 1080p. I know 1080p is highest, so I'm mostly asking for comparisons of 720p and 1080i.
Believe it or not that's a complicated question, but first of all, are you talking about a display's resolution or the source? As the answer will also vary depending on which you are referring to.
 
I understand that the 1080i signal will be better than the 720p signal if the HDTV has a good de-interlacer rather than simply downscaling the image (though some confirmation would be good), and that the 1080i signal by itself is better than 720p at the source. What I'm asking is if, assuming an HDTV doesn't have a good deinterlacer or one at all, which one is the better of the two?
 
I understand that the 1080i signal will be better than the 720p signal if the HDTV has a good de-interlacer rather than simply downscaling the image (though some confirmation would be good), and that the 1080i signal by itself is better than 720p at the source. What I'm asking is if, assuming an HDTV doesn't have a good deinterlacer or one at all, which one is the better of the two?
I'm still not clear. When you say "of the two" are you referring to display resolution or signal resolution?

Because there are so many different conditions that would also impact the answers, perhaps being as specific as possible might help.

After all, not all 1080p or 1080i, or 720p displays are a like, and each different model/design may be better suited for a specific resolution signal than another. As I said, it's a fairly complex question with a great deal of variables depending largely on the specific equipment and type of signals, and in some cases, even the kind of video footage that was captured.
 
OK. I was only trying to help, sorry.

Actually, I appreciate your input! :) but...

I remain fairly confused about the value of 1080p vs 720p! :confused:

The point of the cnet editor's comments is that there is a difference between what is actually noticeable in practice & the technical specs. (The bigger the TV the more noticeable the difference in resolution will be, if you're close to the screen.) You seem to disagree with this assessment.

I follow your point about the D:W. In my own experience: I found I could play GT4 with a 15" HDTV pressed up against the back of my G25 wheel (about 2 to 4 feet from my face), but with a 22" HDTV I wanted to push it back about 6" to 12" in order to view it comfortably. So, in the case of GT4 with a wheel on a table (not a cockpit, which automatically positions the screen a certain distance away), the larger screen didn't seem to be an advantage at all.

However, the smaller (15" to 19") HDTVs I have tried have not had very good image quality - in fact my ultra cheapo 13" CRT has better color & contrast & therefore looks better! Unfortunately, the 13" CRT TV is a lot bulkier than a bigger LCDTV, so not so good for transporting when I travel.

I 'll stick with my point about the shortcomings of GT4 in HD. I'll put it this way: if you have an artificial, painted backdrop (for a movie set for eg) & you take a slightly blurry photo of it, it may look convincingly "real" in the photo. A very sharply focused photo is more likely to reveal the artificial nature of the subject. This is what happens with GT4, IMO. In SD, the backgrounds look a little blurry, but fairly "real". In HD, with the sharper detail, the artificial nature of the image (particularly the backgrounds) is more apparent. I'm not saying it looks worse - but you lose something as well as gaining something IMO.

Thank you for your time! :)
 
The point of the cnet editor's comments is that there is a difference between what is actually noticeable in practice & the technical specs. (The bigger the TV the more noticeable the difference in resolution will be, if you're close to the screen.) You seem to disagree with this assessment.
Yes and no. It has nothing to do with the size of the screen, which is one of the errors in their assessments, it has everything to do with the D:W ratio, or specifically how much of the display area is in your field of vision.

Just like the example I already gave earlier in this thread, if you are 5’ from a 22” screen it will appear larger than if you are sitting 10’ from a 40” screen, thus in that case it would be easier to see differences in the 22” screen.

The fact that at least what you quoted made no mention of the size of the screen and distance from the screen where they supposedly saw little discernable differences, nor mentioned specifically what sources, resolutions, and displays they used to make these non scientific comparisons, then yes I certainly would disagree with the assessment you quoted.


I follow your point about the D:W. In my own experience: I found I could play GT4 with a 15" HDTV pressed up against the back of my G25 wheel (about 2 to 4 feet from my face), but with a 22" HDTV I wanted to push it back about 6" to 12" in order to view it comfortably.

So, in the case of GT4 with a wheel on a table (not a cockpit, which automatically positions the screen a certain distance away), the larger screen didn't seem to be an advantage at all.
In some ways you just disproved your own assessment. The average D:W of a 15" screen from 2-4' away is 2.8 while the average D:W of a 22" screen from 6-12" farther back is 2.3

So in the example you just gave, where you felt the 22" HDTV to be a "comfortable" distance, it resulted in an image 20% larger than the 15" SD display, even though it was 6-12" farther back. That's an advantage.


However, the smaller (15" to 19") HDTVs I have tried have not had very good image quality - in fact my ultra cheapo 13" CRT has better color & contrast & therefore looks better!
I think that's what's got you so doubtful over the advantages of HDTv and especially 1080p. As I said yet again, there are many factors that determine the over all quality of a picture. There are some absolutely superb small HD displays, but they aren't dirt cheap either.


I 'll stick with my point about the shortcomings of GT4 in HD. I'll put it this way: if you have an artificial, painted backdrop (for a movie set for eg) & you take a slightly blurry photo of it, it may look convincingly "real" in the photo. A very sharply focused photo is more likely to reveal the artificial nature of the subject. This is what happens with GT4, IMO. In SD, the backgrounds look a little blurry, but fairly "real". In HD, with the sharper detail, the artificial nature of the image (particularly the backgrounds) is more apparent. I'm not saying it looks worse - but you lose something as well as gaining something IMO.
Only if you have an inferior HD display.. which you keep saying that’s all you’ve seen, so I think where you are going wrong is saying that because you see this problem with poor quality HDTV’s it must also be the same even with high quality HDTVs.

Even in this thread you have someone who has a 1080i display and has made it quite clear they see a big difference between GT4 in SD and GT4 in HD and they prefer it in HD. I know I have as well, as GT4 looks far better on my HD displays then it does on my SD CRT.

What perhaps you are not understanding is that while a SD display can only show GT4 in it's "native" resolution (~350,000 pixels), a HD display combined with a high quality video processor will scale the SD signal to HD resolutions and can use those extra 576,000-1.7 million pixels or 270%-600% more resolution (720p-1080p) to improve the over all quality of the image by rounding off blocky images, interpreting missing detail to enhance the images, and offering better contrast, shadow detail, color accuracy, etc.

If all you are comparing your SD TV to poor quality HDTV's, then it only makes sense why you have not been terribly impressed with GT4 in HD.

Seeing as others, including my self have seen an improvement when playing GT4 on our HDTVs, perhaps this is even more of an indication that it isn't GT4, but rather the type and quality of the display that impacts how well GT4 looks in HD compared to SD.

I feel like you might be misinterpreting my intent as someone suggesting that everyone must rush out and buy the very best HDTVs, when in fact I am not saying that at all. Everyone has there own needs, wants, and restrictions and in many cases a small SD TV may indeed be the best choice for a particular need.

What gets me though is when publications and consumers downplay or downright discredit the value of some types of displays perhaps to justify an earlier position or agenda, or to justify a recent purchase decision. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, or in the cNET article you quoted, although many of the quotes seem to suggest something other than a well informed unbiased opinion.
 
Just to throw in my opinion:

I'm using a DLP projector which accepts 1080p and I can see the difference between that and 720p. This isn't always the case, for example a poorly up-scaled 720p game or film doesn't look much better but something which was done for 1080p does look better.

This whole HD thing is pretty confusing as the sales staff often don't know what they're talking about, plus on the technical side you get the TV/projector doing some processing, the original source might not be much good etc.etc.

I've seen in the shops that a 720p screen can look very good with the right system (image processor etc.) and it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of HD broadcasts will only be 720p.
 
Yes and no. It has nothing to do with the size of the screen, which is one of the errors in their assessments, it has everything to do with the D:W ratio, or specifically how much of the display area is in your field of vision.

Just like the example I already gave earlier in this thread, if you are 5’ from a 22” screen it will appear larger than if you are sitting 10’ from a 40” screen, thus in that case it would be easier to see differences in the 22” screen.

The fact that at least what you quoted made no mention of the size of the screen and distance from the screen where they supposedly saw little discernable differences, nor mentioned specifically what sources, resolutions, and displays they used to make these non scientific comparisons, then yes I certainly would disagree with the assessment you quoted.

I think you would have to look at the whole article from cnet to judge whether you agree with their conclusions: I only quoted a small part.

In some ways you just disproved your own assessment. The average D:W of a 15" screen from 2-4' away is 2.8 while the average D:W of a 22" screen from 6-12" farther back is 2.3

So in the example you just gave, where you felt the 22" HDTV to be a "comfortable" distance, it resulted in an image 20% larger than the 15" SD display, even though it was 6-12" farther back. That's an advantage.

Well my distances are very approximate so the actual D:Ws might be fairly different. However, I think the point is that these were no very good quality HDTVs, so neither of them looked that good - but possibly the 22" looked somewhat worse!

Only if you have an inferior HD display.. which you keep saying that’s all you’ve seen, so I think where you are going wrong is saying that because you see this problem with poor quality HDTV’s it must also be the same even with high quality HDTVs.

I do have a pretty good quality 37" 720p HDTV. I tried GT4 on it a while ago & wasn't totally blown away compared to SDTV, but I'll give it another try & let you know what I think. Again, as the 37" is our "large" family TV, I don't use it for playing GT4 with my wheel.

What gets me though is when publications and consumers downplay or downright discredit the value of some types of displays perhaps to justify an earlier position or agenda, or to justify a recent purchase decision. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, or in the cNET article you quoted, although many of the quotes seem to suggest something other than a well informed unbiased opinion.

I tend to think most "professional"commentators, like cnet, would, if anything, have a vested interest to promote the "latest & greatest", rather than, in this case, suggesting a moderate viewpoint. But who knows...
 
OK, Digital, I actually took the trouble to hook up the PS2 to my 37" HDTV & came to the conclusion that ...

you are right. :irked:

1) The image quality was beautiful: rich color & contrast compared to the crappy little HDTV & much sharper & more detailed than my cheapo 13" SDTV.

2) The "realism" of the detail was no better on the 480i setting than on the 1080i setting: the graphic shortcomings of GT4 are just more visible when the image is bigger.

3) With regard to 720p vs 1080p & cnet: I don't have personal experience with a 1080p TV, but my suspicion is that if you're a reasonable distance away from the TV the difference is not going to be very (if at all) noticeable, but if you want to sit closer - "immersed" in the screen, 1080p would probably make a difference (which I think is basically what they are saying).

4) GT4 still looks relatively good in SD compared to HD, but GT5 will look dramatically better in HD.

5) The ideal screen size for a cockpit set-up with GT4 is probably about 32". With my set-up the ideal is probably around 19" - 22" with a good quality HDTV. However, it's possible that with GT5 a bigger screen would work well for a more "immersive" experience.

My quest for the right TV is based on my need for a TV that is small enough to easily take with me when I travel, but large enough to use at home, without feeling that I have compromised too much...

Thank you for your time. :)
 
OK, Digital, I actually took the trouble to hook up the PS2 to my 37" HDTV & came to the conclusion that ...

you are right. :irked:

1) The image quality was beautiful: rich color & contrast compared to the crappy little HDTV & much sharper & more detailed than my cheapo 13" SDTV.
👍


2) The "realism" of the detail was no better on the 480i setting than on the 1080i setting: the graphic shortcomings of GT4 are just more visible when the image is bigger.
Again this sounds like a display issue, and not GT4... as there are noticeable improvements from changing GT4 from 480i to 1080i... although subtle because the game still isn't natively 1080i. Why you are not seeing it, I wouldn't know without knowing the model of your TV, what cable are you using, and how it's calibrated. It's not a big deal, but like others, when used with the appropriate display and set-up, GT4 looks better when switched to output in 1080i... although for other types of displays, you'll likely get a better picture if you keep it set at 480i and let the display's video processor do all the scalling.


3) With regard to 720p vs 1080p & cnet: I don't have personal experience with a 1080p TV, but my suspicion is that if you're a reasonable distance away from the TV the difference is not going to be very (if at all) noticeable, but if you want to sit closer - "immersed" in the screen, 1080p would probably make a difference (which I think is basically what they are saying).
Well I certainly can't argue with generalities, as what you may consider "reasonable" others may not.

I will say that I personally can see the difference between watching the same 1080p material on a 720p display and a 1080p display at a D:W ratio of 4.0 or less. That is equivalent to sitting about 30 feet from a 100" screen, or 12 feet from a 40" screen, or 5 feet from a 17" screen. All these distance seem quite reasonable to me... and are far from being "immersed" in the screen... which most would say starts to happen at a D:W of about 2.0 or less, which is of course half the distances I listed above.


4) GT4 still looks relatively good in SD compared to HD, but GT5 will look dramatically better in HD.
Agreed on both counts.


5) The ideal screen size for a cockpit set-up with GT4 is probably about 32". With my set-up the ideal is probably around 19" - 22" with a good quality HDTV. However, it's possible that with GT5 a bigger screen would work well for a more "immersive" experience.
What would really be nice is a surround display set-up with three large screens. :)👍


My quest for the right TV is based on my need for a TV that is small enough to easily take with me when I travel, but large enough to use at home, without feeling that I have compromised too much...
Given that, I think a moderately priced middle of the road 17"-22" LCD HD monitor will fit your needs quite well. 👍


Thank you for your time. :)
That's what we are all here for, to help each other get the most enjoyment possible from GT and everything else that comes along or is somehow related to it. :)
 

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