What TCS level closely resemble LMP cars?

[Akmuq]

You can't really compare the two, as real life Traction Control in a race car is there to give you cornering grip to go faster, not to make it easier, although it would do the latter as well.

If I were to try replicate a real life LMP in GT5, I would put TCS at 1, and set the LSD to something like 15 50 8. Note that I have had limited experience driving the LMP's in this game, usually just a stock 908 or R10 on Racing Hards which would be slower than my suggestion.

 

[Santos i7]

Well, we don't know how a real LMP feels like with or without TCS. What if it's more realistic with no aids because real life *physics* it's more slipery?

And if it isn't? I'm not saying it's not possible. but driving an LMP without TCS in-game requires near perfect throttle control, especially in the low gears. I really don't think the real-world drivers have time to worry about that in the heat of a race.

Look, in certain tracks with GT5 you can run several seconds faster compared to real life, myabe this is a hint GT5 physics is easier, maybe not

It's a well known fact and has been discussed before that a number of things contribute to that, a major one being the fear factor.

what Jav said makes sense to me.

It also depends on the hardware you have, if you have DFGT pedals going with TCS 1 or 2 while using a Toyota Minolta is not a bad idea. You'll save tyres as someone mentioned.

So, you agree with Jav that you shouldn't use TCS, then you say that TCS is a good idea? Gotcha.

 

[Stradivis]

I also had to add to this discussion how great amount of *mechanical* TCS can be added through adjusting the LSD.

So I would go that far and say that proper adjustment of Initial Slip and Acceleration Slip would probably lead to closest resemblance of the real-life TCS used by race cars.

This sounds accurate, as if TCS and LSD complement each other. I was testing with the latest seasonal, and found that LSD gave me much better control at turn exits than TCS did. But TCS prevented wheelspin during straights, with all those bumps at that track.

BTW, used a Peugeot 908, and TCS at 3-4.

 

[LancerEvo7]

Do what the drivers do, drive with a TCS setting that you're comfortable with.

 

[TomBrady]

I'm surprised at how people here always talk about no TC blah blah well in fact racing cars do have TCS and other live aids in use. For those realistic sim drivers out there, what is a comparable TCS level in-game that corresponds to real life LMP's or any other classes of cars? I always use 1 and that's sufficient enough for me but I heard that LMP cars use higher levels especially for those fast corners that lead to straightaways. Thanks.

In my opinion and experience, GT5s TCS at 1 is too much. I guess it depends on the car, but in most cases (especially in a ferrari), the TCS is way off of the real thing. GT5s TCS just causes way too much understeer, and does WAY too much of the work for you. It's practically impossible to give too much throttle when TCS is on, you could do full throttle, and still not spin out as long as you steer the car. It's pretty bogus. The only usefull aid GT5 has is active steering. ASM is overpowering, ABS is ok, and skid recovery is just downright unrealistic.

As always, since this is technically a sim with casual sim elements, I'm going to suggest to make it as sim as possible. It's so much more rewarding that way, even if you use a controller. Playing a sim realistically is so much more meaningful. If you do something great but have help like aids, or unrealistic tires, it will never be as impressive as someone doing something even less impressive, with full realism. It's more difficult, and that's why it's more impressive/rewarding/better.

Suck it up, acclimate, and accelerate brah

 

[Santos i7]

In my opinion and experience, GT5s TCS at 1 is too much. I guess it depends on the car, but in most cases (especially in a ferrari), the TCS is way off of the real thing.

So you've went out and driven every single car in the game to test this?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you shouldn't say stuff like that unless you have, and you haven't. You don't know how 99% of the cars in the game behave under their TCS systems, so when you're saying it's wrong you're just assuming.

 

[Jav]

Did you not read the thread at all?

Like somebody else said, 1-3 usually seems fitting. Although, alot of it really depends one which LMP you're using and what track you're on.

Jav,

Since LMP cars IRL have TCS, the question is which in game setting mostly replicates that. I guess at this point we are all aware that the assists presented in the game do not represent perfect replicas of their real life counterparts. However, I don't think no aids is the better solution when using those high powered racing beasts.

I did read the thread and understand the question perfectly, that's why I expressed it was my opinion. Now if you want to know what is based on, the it is based on 17 yers of motorsports experience, be it racing my own car,crewing for friends, racing on friends cars, or involved on the organizational part of it.
Now, any and every race car totally depends on its ability to rotate to obtain quick lap times wich is pretty much it's sole purpose. Like B.A explained on the video posted their system will allow a predetermined amount of slip angle depending on setting. A true race-based traction control system will do this and serve as a tool to complement and enhance the driver's ability to obtain the ultimate performance out of the car.
All GT5's system does is block your throtle input any and every time it "senses" wheel spin regardless of slip angle, vehicle speed, diff settings or any other external factor. All this does is slow you down since it take's away the ability to use the throtle to rotate the car and properly control the car's attitude trough the corner.
So yes, in my opinion the best TC setting to replicate the real thing is 0.
Stisfied?

 

[Santos i7]

I did read the thread and understand the question perfectly, that's why I expressed it was my opinion. Now if you want to know what is based on, the it is based on 17 yers of motorsports experience, be it racing my own car,crewing for friends, racing on friends cars, or involved on the organizational part of it.

As impressive as that is, LMP's are a whole different league of racing.

All GT5's system does is block your throtle input any and every time it "senses" wheel spin regardless of slip angle, vehicle speed, diff settings or any other external factor. All this does is slow you down since it take's away the ability to use the throtle to rotate the car and properly control the car's attitude trough the corner.

It does control how much power goes to the wheels, you're right there, but it doesn't slow you down, technically. Without TCS, you're probably going to be spinning the tires unless you go easy on the throttle coming out of a corner. While spinning, you obviously have no traction to the tires pushing the car, which means you're not going to be gaining much speed. What TCS in GT5 does is show you just how much power you can give without spinning and keep your traction, thus making you accelerate out faster.

Basically, TCS doesn't slow you down, as you wouldn't be going much faster if you were sitting there roastinng your tires without it.

 

[Jav]

As stated many times now, it is my opinion. Take whatever you want from it.

 

[Matty]

TCS does slow you down.

Main point, it only activates once the wheels have already slipped. An experienced driver can control that slip and continue on with maybe a tenth lost.

With - for an extreme example - TCS on 10 once the tyres slip it kills off all throttle until they grip again, costing you up to at least a second.

TCS slows you down. End of story.

 

[Santos i7]

As stated many times now, it is my opinion. Take whatever you want from it.

Of course. Wasn't trying to offend or attack you or anything, so I hope it didn't come across like that. I'm just persistant.

Main point, it only activates once the wheels have already slipped. An experienced driver can control that slip and continue on with maybe a tenth lost.

That may be true for the very lowest settings, but in general, no. Go hop in a car, and do a full, low speed circle, then immediately hit the gas. Most settings won't allow the tires to slip at all, and it just cuts a fraction of the power. Depending on how much power the car has, some of the lowers settings might allow some wheelspin, but not much, and definitely all settings won't be like that.

With - for an extreme example - TCS on 10 once the tyres slip it kills off all throttle until they grip again, costing you up to at least a second.

10 is a VERY extreme example. Like I said before 1-3 is a pretty general number I'd use.

 

[Machate-man]

TCS does slow you down.

Main point, it only activates once the wheels have already slipped. An experienced driver can control that slip and continue on with maybe a tenth lost.

With - for an extreme example - TCS on 10 once the tyres slip it kills off all throttle until they grip again, costing you up to at least a second.

TCS slows you down. End of story.

Therefore I think that a setting of 1-3 would give the minimal amount of slip (10% ?)needed to use all of the grip in the tyres for acceleration, whilst a setting of 4-6 would ensure control through corners.

Of course, if Audi were not to use TCS in this years 24h Le Mans, they would likely be much less competitive, and more prone to failure/crashing.

Without TCS:
1*)You are constantly on a high RPM when accelerating out of corners, burning more fuel per lap = less efficiency = less endurance

2*)Burning the tyres out of corners reduces their distance = more time changing tyres in pits = less time on track

3) Significantly more difficult to control ~600hp when attempting to accelerate mid-corner (Think Porsche Curves)

4*)Engine and transmission would wear out faster, causing mechanical problems (bad for an endurance race)

*This is given you mash the throttle out of every corner. If you attempted to alleviate this by short shifting, you might not accelerate as fast as possible. (with an power curb that peaks at the top rpm)

Anything to make the job of driving easier for the drivers in such a race would be done in order to ensure both safety and consistency. TCS is this example. Audi wins (in this era, at least) because they balance speed with endurance. Speed cannot take top priority in a race designed to test endurance.

 

[ItsHim]

TCS slows you down. End of story.

Nope, that's wrong.

Not taking real world figures into account, that's for another day in another thread, TCS makes anyone faster potentially, though this comes at a cost.

Not being able to rotate the back end by power oversteer might hamper one from time to time, but on the other hand I found traction on corner exit much better. Choose a good line, be able to get earlier and harder on the throttle, be the first into the next corner.

Now, one could achieve this by all sorts of means. Suspension tuning, LSD tuning, short shifting.

But I can understand anyone who can't be bothered and simply goes for the TCS option.

Or to quote Chris Harris: "I use the TCS on this one because it makes me faster."

I'm not talking fun factor from power sliding and general mocking about, I'm just a bit tired of this myth.

 

[dr_slump]

Nope, that's wrong.

Not taking real world figures into account, that's for another day in another thread, TCS makes anyone faster potentially, though this comes at a cost.

Not being able to rotate the back end by power oversteer might hamper one from time to time, but on the other hand I found traction on corner exit much better. Choose a good line, be able to get earlier and harder on the throttle, be the first into the next corner.

Now, one could achieve this by all sorts of means. Suspension tuning, LSD tuning, short shifting.

But I can understand anyone who can't be bothered and simply goes for the TCS option.

Or to quote Chris Harris: "I use the TCS on this one because it makes me faster."

I'm not talking fun factor from power sliding and general mocking about, I'm just a bit tired of this myth.

But this is a game and not reality.

 

[carracerptp]

If TC was faster, than why don't we see anyone in the top 50, even the top 100 in GT Academy using TC?
TC in GT5 set at 1 (GT5, not real life), is much slower in most cars, and slower in every other car. In the hands of a driver with any sort of throttle control TC will slow them down.

It's always going to use the "safe" amount of power the tires can take, not the limit of power tires can take. The closest thing in GT5 to real life traction control is your left foot. They race many endurance races on this forum, many with TC off. If you turn TC on, yes, some may get better tire wear, but only because they are slower overall (And they must have been heavy on the throttle before).

It's not like the systems in real life.

Now, ABS, and that active steering are the only aids in the game that will help in setting faster lap times (OK, SRF can also help, if you like Mario Kart physics ).

Back to the real question:

I'm surprised at how people here always talk about no TC blah blah well in fact racing cars do have TCS and other live aids in use. For those realistic sim drivers out there, what is a comparable TCS level in-game that corresponds to real life LMP's or any other classes of cars? I always use 1 and that's sufficient enough for me but I heard that LMP cars use higher levels especially for those fast corners that lead to straightaways. Thanks.

I would use 1-2 max. Still not right but 1 or maybe 2 could get something not too slow.

 

[Jav]

(GT5, not real life)

There! You answered everything with that statement!

 

[Machate-man]

But this is a game and not reality.

Then one cannot liken this to real driving, nor find out which GT5 TCS setting simulates ones in LMPs. Rendering this thread irrelevant, Yes?

If TC was faster, than why don't we see anyone in the top 50, even the top 100 in GT Academy using TC?
TC in GT5 set at 1 (GT5, not real life), is much slower in most cars, and slower in every other car. In the hands of a driver with any sort of throttle control TC will slow them down.

A road car (Which the majority of the cars in GTAcademy are) is intentionally made so that one can drive with or without the TC, as well as being a platform to learning about the dynamics of wheelspin with it turned off.

It's always going to use the "safe" amount of power the tires can take, not the limit of power tires can take. The closest thing in GT5 to real life traction control is your left foot. They race many endurance races on this forum, many with TC off. If you turn TC on, yes, some may get better tire wear, but only because they are slower overall (And they must have been heavy on the throttle before).

On the off chance that you crash in your next race, would you blame the car for being to lively? Or yourself for not taking the measures to control it? (Or blame others, which isn't advisable unless obviously apparent)

 

[Stradivis]

So, to sum it all, there's no way to replicate in game the sort of aids used in LMP cars?

 

[carracerptp]

Then one cannot liken this to real driving, nor find out which GT5 TCS setting simulates ones in LMPs. Rendering this thread irrelevant, Yes?

Yes you are correct. Just like trying to find the most realistic "road" tire in the game, it can't be done. really we could end the thread right here.

A road car (Which the majority of the cars in GTAcademy are) is intentionally made so that one can drive with or without the TC, as well as being a platform to learning about the dynamics of wheelspin with it turned off.

? I may have missed your point but no...

On the off chance that you crash in your next race, would you blame the car for being to lively? Or yourself for not taking the measures to control it? (Or blame others, which isn't advisable unless obviously apparent)

In event that I crash because of a lack of TC... wait... I can't remember the last time I crashed because of wheel spin. Normally I end up crashing because of understeer (something TC give a lot of).

But if I was in a race with a 600+ HP LMP, or as I was in more recently a formula GT car, and I found I just gave it to much gas and crashed, I would have 2 reasons.

If I tuned the car, I gave it to much oversteer (added to much negative toe, or lowered the rear ride height to much).

Or

I just flat out messed up.

Both would have been the same with TC on or off. You can still spin a car with TC on, and if the drive needs TC, then it's likely that they can still spin it.

And funny thing, the last time completely lost control of a car in a race was because I was hit (punted) in a braking zone by a driver using every aid available (ASM,TC, ABS at 5, Active Steering, SRF).

So, to sum it all, there's no way to replicate in game the sort of aids used in LMP cars?

👍

 

[Jav]

So, to sum it all, there's no way to replicate in game the sort of aids used in LMP cars?

Unfourtunately there's no way. Anyway if you're looking to replicate a modern day LMP car you shouldn't really need TC since they have no more than 550HP...

 

[Stradivis]

Unfourtunately there's no way. Anyway if you're looking to replicate a modern day LMP car you shouldn't really need TC since they have no more than 550HP...

Indeed, nowhere near those Group C tire eaters. My biggest problem is when the turbos kick in. Same with the McLaren MP4. But messing around with the LSD is helping a lot.

 

[HKS racer]

And if it isn't? I'm not saying it's not possible. but driving an LMP without TCS in-game requires near perfect throttle control, especially in the low gears. I really don't think the real-world drivers have time to worry about that in the heat of a race.

It's a well known fact and has been discussed before that a number of things contribute to that, a major one being the fear factor.

So, you agree with Jav that you shouldn't use TCS, then you say that TCS is a good idea? Gotcha.

Look, I understand people for not using aids, I also don't use aids 99% of times. At the same time if you don't wonna finetune your Minolta and just have a quick race, TCS probably is the quickest fix to that huge wheel spinning, but if you have time to spend with tuning, try a mix of soft supnsions and LSD settings instead of TCS. Hope it's clear now.

 

[ItsHim]

If TC was faster, than why don't we see anyone in the top 50, even the top 100 in GT Academy using TC?
TC in GT5 set at 1 (GT5, not real life), is much slower in most cars, and slower in every other car. In the hands of a driver with any sort of throttle control TC will slow them down.

It's always going to use the "safe" amount of power the tires can take, not the limit of power tires can take. The closest thing in GT5 to real life traction control is your left foot. They race many endurance races on this forum, many with TC off. If you turn TC on, yes, some may get better tire wear, but only because they are slower overall (And they must have been heavy on the throttle before).

Search me, maybe active steering and TCS don't mix well? Though I'm pretty confident there will be some clean, smooth, non active steering laps by the end of the GTA.

Low TCS values in GT5 do not turn prevent tyre slip happening at all, but tone down the slip going over the small bumps and save tyres because of this. One simply can't do this with throttle control alone.

All I do is run with tyre wear on in GT5 these days, save for the seasonals, and on the Nordschleife there are no half laps. TCS 1 gets me a decent 4th or 5th lap depending on the weight of the car _just_. Without I would be riding the last half lap on my rims.

Please do give it a try yourself, you'll find there's nothing wrong with a dash of TCS and it won't make you any slower. Unless you happen to spend days fine tuning your cars. I much prefer a stock suspension with TCS over a car setup for online use without TCS because those usually are set up with plenty of understeer tendency and camber angles that would shred the tyres after 15 minutes.

 

[Bram Turismo]

The TC in GT5 seems to feel linear, as GT5's TC graph just bases itself upon how light the vehicle is and the power it makes. In no way do I feel like a Peugeot 908 has more traction than my souped up Supra.

I'm not sure how much TC the teams at Le Mans are running, but I doubt they need any TC at all through the Porsche curves. The fact is that their tires are so sticky, and today's LMPs produce so much downforce, that I highly doubt they ever experience loss of traction on a dry and clean track. The only places where they'd need TC is when exiting the Dunlop chicane, the Hunaudieres chicanes, the Mulsanne chicane, Arnage, and the Ford chicanes.

In GT5 with TC set at 1, my Peugeot just loses traction in 4th gear through the Porsche curves. I refuse to believe this kind of behavior resembles anything close to the real thing.

Then again, if these teams run an advanced system of TC, then it's probably very unlikely anyone will be able to reproduce its effects in a video game.

 

[Samus]

Unfourtunately there's no way. Anyway if you're looking to replicate a modern day LMP car you shouldn't really need TC since they have no more than 550HP...

Shame GT5 doesn't have any of those models, huh? If they were on the ball they'd have had some of the 2012 cars modeled ready to release as DLC to coincide with the 24 Hour Race. But no.

 

[carracerptp]

Search me, maybe active steering and TCS don't mix well? Though I'm pretty confident there will be some clean, smooth, non active steering laps by the end of the GTA.

I'm sure some will.

Low TCS values in GT5 do not turn prevent tyre slip happening at all, but tone down the slip going over the small bumps and save tyres because of this. One simply can't do this with throttle control alone.

Tell that to R1600Turbo (He is great with tire wear). I have limited endurance race experience with TC at anything other than 0 but I find I can make make tire last just by fixing my driving style.
I think it's all about how you drive the car.

All I do is run with tyre wear on in GT5 these days, save for the seasonals, and on the Nordschleife there are no half laps. TCS 1 gets me a decent 4th or 5th lap depending on the weight of the car _just_. Without I would be riding the last half lap on my rims.

It seems some drives like TC, it allows you to be calmer, so it will help tire life.

Please do give it a try yourself, you'll find there's nothing wrong with a dash of TCS and it won't make you any slower. Unless you happen to spend days fine tuning your cars. I much prefer a stock suspension with TCS over a car setup for online use without TCS because those usually are set up with plenty of understeer tendency and camber angles that would shred the tyres after 15 minutes.

I race mostly stock cars, only a few cars are tuned. I tried TC once to see if it was better (before SPEC 2.06 I think, if TC has chanced since then this could be wrong).
It was Tsukuba Circuit, and I think I used the Minolta, I was faster with TC off and with a little practice I got equal tire wear.

 

[sporkafife]

From what I understand TCS essentially lifts off the throttle slightly to stop the tyres from spinning, and the different levels (1-10) of traction control change how early the system comes in and by how much it lets off the trottle. For example 1 traction control might let the tyres spin slightly before it comes in, and even then it might not lift off the throttle enough to kill off all the wheelspin. And 10 traction control might start reducing the throttle even before the tyres spin and reduce it by more than is necessary to keep the tyres gripping. The optimal TCS value would probably be somewhere between the two so that it lets off the throttle just at the point that the tyres would normally spin and only lets off enough to stop the tyres from losing grip, but this optimal value would be different for of every car. Change the car setup and it could be different again.

^^^ All of the above is only taking into account accelerating in a straight line, add turning and slip angles into the picture and it gets a lot more difficult.

No TCS means that it is entirely up to the driver to decide how much throttle he should apply to keep the tyres at their maximum grip without them spinning. Technically this means that, with enough practice and perfect application of the throttle on the exit of every corner of a track, you could set a faster lap without TCS than you could with the optimal level of TCS. However, this would require a lot of time and practice with a single car to get perfect, and it is a lot quicker and easier to set a TCS level that you feel both comfortable and fast with before the race. And while this is probably going to be slightly slower than the optimal throttle application, it is a lot quicker and easier to set up, and much less tiring to drive. And reducing the strain on drivers is extremely important if they're going to be driving for long periods of time (like with LMP's)

To answer the OP's question, each of the LMP cars is going to have a different level of TCS that is optimal, and the level may be slightly different for each corner and will be different as the tyres degrade. It will change again if the surface conditions change like when it rains. All of this is why the drivers of LMP cars can change the level of TCS at their will. The most realistic way would be to map the RA system to whatever input device you are using and change the level of TCS whenever you feel like it needs to be changed. Although the TCS on GT5 probably isn't an accurate representation of real LMP car traction control systems, so even that might not give you the perfect level of realism.

 

[TomBrady]

So you've went out and driven every single car in the game to test this?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you shouldn't say stuff like that unless you have, and you haven't. You don't know how 99% of the cars in the game behave under their TCS systems, so when you're saying it's wrong you're just assuming.

No of course not, but TCS in GT5 behaves the same on every car in the game, and compared to the few cars I have driven that had some sort of TCS, it's just different, and less precise.

It's pretty well known that Ferrari's in Race mode (which all Ferrari's in GT5 are in), they're faster. And in GT5, adding TCS to a ferrari is redundant and inaccurate, because the Ferrari's onboard TCS and other systems (in race mode), are already simulated. You can tell that pretty easily if you have a wheel, and compare it to more "pure" supercars. Just like the Nissan GT-R's, it's not just quality design that make those things handle so well, the electronics are simulated in GT5 as well. And in that case, PD did a great job at simulating TCS, but the TCS under driving options, is not meant to simulate TCS in every car in the game, because of course not all cars have it.

Like I said, the TCS IS the same for every car in the game, it's the same code, and it's only an aid for the controller (gamepad/wheel), it's not something they put in to simulate a real TCS system, it's something that exists to help nooby players that need help getting acclimated. Especially controller noobs.

This isn't rocket surgery, and it's not that far of a stretch of the imagination, especially when a lot of it is based on real experience. I've driven Evo's, WRX's, and stuff like that at real tracks. And with "TCS" off, GT5 does an incredible job replicated the feel of those cars, including replicating the electronic systems those cars have. But "TCS" in GT5, is another addition, and it's not meant to, nor can it replace the TCS simulation they have for those cars already

 

[Tsukasa_Bullet]

In GT5 with TC set at 1, my Peugeot just loses traction in 4th gear through the Porsche curves. I refuse to believe this kind of behavior resembles anything close to the real thing.

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