What to do with Tilke

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Jimlaad43

Jimlaad43

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Hermann Tilke, the racing fans most hated enemy.

What to do with him.
Well, the only problem people have with him is the track layout and endless runoff,
but everyone ignores the fact that the tracks are an amazing architectural triumph
and an enormous boost to the local economy.

However, when he redevelops an old circuit, he does a good job.
A1-Ring (It didn't have the charm of the Oesterreichring, but it was still awesome).
Hockenheim (I like the new circuit better than the old one, you can overtake into a hairpin better than into a chicane).
Fuji (Just awesome)
What he would have done to Donington would have been amazing too.

Also, remember that without him, Turn 8 at Istanbul wouldn't exist.

So in my opinion, he needs someone to design the track layout, and let him fiddle
with the buildings and infrastructure, unless he is given an old track to redo.
 
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No, what Tilke needs is more design freedom. Compare Buddh International and the Circuit of the Americas to Yas Marina and Shangahi. What's the difference?

The people organising these events. India and Austin are both being organised by people who are genuinely enthusiastic for the race, and understand the value of a circuit that can produce exciting racing. Shanghai and Abu Dhabi, on the other hand, are organised by faceless bureaucrats who want the Grand Prix for the publicity boost.

So, how has this translated to the finished product that is the circuit? Both India and Austin are built on tracts of land that are filled with hills and elevation changes. Shanghai is built on reclaimed swampland, while Abu Dhabi is on a man-made island.

And that's why Tilke needs design freedom. He needs to be brought into the design process earlier. Rather than having a piece of land set aside for him, he should consult on which piece of land the circuit should be built on. Just look at all of his circuits that are considered good - Sepang, Istanbul, the A1 Ring, and so on and so forth: all of them have elevation changes.

As for the duds, the fall into two categories. They're either build on (almost) completely flat land, as is the case with Shanghai and Abu Dhabi, or they're severly limited by the local geography, like Singapore and Valencia.

When it comes to rebuilding circuits, Tilke isn't really to blame. A lot of people throw stones for the Hockenheim rebuild, but when you look at the work he did, it's pretty obvious that he was told to treat the existing circuit as an outer border. And since Hockenheim's infield is long and narrow, there was never much that he could do in the first place. Likewise the Mercedes Arena at the Nurburgring: he had to use the infield, since there is a large grandstand on the outside. And between the paddock and the bottleneck at the far end of the circuit, the Nurburgring infield is very cramped.

The endless run-off isn't Tilke's fault, either. He doesn't include it because he wants to - he includes it because he has to. The FIA regulations on circuit design increasingly demand tarmac run-off. But you'd think they'd at least paint the run-off areas to look like grass or gravel ...
 
India was a flat area, and it has had artificial elevation put on it like Portimao.
Shanghai does create some racing, but Abu Dhabi, what were they thinking of when they didn't change the circuit layout.
 
Well, it's got a lot of artifical elevation, then. The main straight is practically the only section of the circuit that is flat. But building those elevations is very expensive. So evidently the people behind the race really want the circuit to be good.

As for Abu Dhabi not changing the circuit, they want to see what the 2011 regulations will do first. The whole circuit was designed to promote overtaking, which is clearly has not done. If anything, this proves that circuit design is - and always has been - a bit of a black art. And because of this, the owners and organisers of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix don't want to spend millions of dollars reconfiguring the circuit, only to discover that it hasn't done anything. They're going to reconsider the rebuild after this year's race. They already have the plans drawn up, and will fast-track the re-design if it's necessary.
 
The problem isn't Tilke per se. He has made some great track designs.

The problem is, I think most people would prefer to see more than one circuit designer having a go. Surely if we leave all the circuit designs to one man, he is inevitably going to run out of ideas or end up making many similar designs?

I don't buy the suggestion that he is always limited and constrained from making masterpieces. Sure, you can't make a Nordschleife without some natural hills and land...but you can still make a great track layout even on a flat piece of land..and without much elevation. I mean look at Montreal or even Monza. You don't have to create fancy elevations, corner combinations or add marinas, hotels or the night to make good tracks.
 
I just don't get why if there is such hate for his designs why he is still the go to guy for new circuits? Also why do other designers hardly ever get a look in?

I think ones like Yas Marina and Yeongnam are pretty good.
 
Robin.
Also why do other designers hardly ever get a look in?
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For one, there's not too many firms that design circuits. And those few that do can't compete with Tilke. Tilke GmbH isn't just an architectual firm - they're architects, civil engineers and construction management. They can take a project from its inception and see it through to the hand-over. They control every step of the process.
 
Why do people hate Tilke?

The only bad ones he's made are Bahrain(some people like that), Abu Dhabi and Valencia.

Hockenheim is better now because fans actually see what happens in front of them, not on a giant screen.

A1 Ring wasn't as good as the old one, but it was good in it's own right, I think I prefer the Red Bull Ring better though.

Why oh why Aragon isn't the spanish Grand Prix though, it really makes you sad.



Also, did he put in the turn 2-4 section at the Nubugring, cause that's no good apart from increased overtaking into turn 1.
 
akmuq
Why oh why Aragon isn't the spanish Grand Prix though, it really makes you sad.
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Because they don't want it. When South Korea was in danger of not passing its inspection, Bernie approached Aragon and asked them if they wanted to host a one-off race in Korea's place should the circuit fail homologation. The owners of the circuit said no.
 
I just want to chime in to Tilke's defense by saying I don't hate all Tilke tracks. It's just that several of them lack any sort of personality and feel generic.
 
interludes
For one, there's not too many firms that design circuits. And those few that do can't compete with Tilke. Tilke GmbH isn't just an architectual firm - they're architects, civil engineers and construction management. They can take a project from its inception and see it through to the hand-over. They control every step of the process.
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Yes they may be the best guys to do the whole process the but then you end up with the situation you see with many new building projects where for the millionth time you hear its been done by Norman Foster yawn... Jeez give other people a chance and maybe you'll get something better. They need to stop playing it so safe.

Robin.
 
Changing designers won't do much. The problem is in the rule book, not the person designing the circuits. If Tilke were dropped in favour of someone else, they'd be bound by the same restrictions as he is.

And it's not like Tilke has a monopoly on designing mediocre circuits. The way some people tell it, Tilke is the only person who ever built a bad layout, which is patently untrue. John Hugenholtz was the man responsible for Suzuka, one of the greatest circuits of the modern age. But he also designed Jamara, one of the most fiddly little circuits in the entire world. It's even harder to pass there than it is at Monaco, as Gilles Villeneuve proved in 1981 when he won in an under-powered Ferrari.
 
Do you mean Jarama ludes?

I think Tilke gets a bit too much abuse as well, he can only work to what he's got and he's still designed some pretty good circuits.

I think Yas Marina will deliver a good race this year with the new rules.
 
Yes, Jarama. I got the 'm' and the 'r' mixed up.

I think the problems with Yas Marina stem from the fact that it is a circuit that naturally favours the defending driver. That sharp left-right at the end of the back straight, for example, hands the advantage to the defender because it's easy for them to get to the second apex and get a good run out of the corner.
 
The tracks he's done aren't necessarily bad, it's just they look very sterile and boring which places like monza and spa don't.

The only track that Tilke has made that I really hate is Fuji, that last section is the flat out worst piece of track design ever. It makes it a truly dull experience unless you happen to be driving an F1 car when it becomes slightly interesting but in anything else it's awful. It reminds me of the end two turns of the Hungaroring(which was never a great section anyway) but very angular and tight.
 
Isn't Tilke's designs held back by safety regulations and what the FIA want instead of the fans?

It's kinda unfair to blame him if all the tracks turned out to be not so great, if that were the case.
 
I for one hate them, ok nice architectural designs, flashy buildings and huge paddocks but the circuits don't have a nice fast flow like the classic ones.

If there are exciting corners incorporated in his designs (like the turn in Istanbul), they are met later on by tight micky mouse ones; like the first one in China or Malaysia, or the last section in Fuji.

Hockenheim is better viewable for the spectators now, but i miss those old 360 km/h sections where they were screaming through the forrests. It made the old hockenheim always something special but now it is no more. And to be honest 95% of the racing is followed by a public on a television screen anyways.

Also because of the huge runoff zones it seems they are always racing in the middle of nowhere...
 
To be honest, he doesn't really have much choice in what he makes. The FIA need to make sure the tracks agree with the rule book and so this leads to the run off areas. I also agree with prisonermonkeys 1st post. The amount of enthusiasm does really make a difference, and I'm sure that India will deliver a good race this year (being from the country doesn't influence my decision at all, heh heh heh).
 
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gorsad
To be honest, he doesn't really have much choice in what he makes. The FIA need to make sure the tracks agree with the rule book and so this leads to the run off areas. I also agree with prisonermonkeys 1st post. The amount of enthusiasm does really make a difference, and I'm sure that India will deliver a good race this year (being from the country doesn't influence my des icon at all, heh heh heh).
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True but corner wise i do put the blame on Tilke, i don't think the FIA has "long straights must end in tight curls" set in their rulebook :).

I remember from last years GP in India all the drivers said they liked it, but to be honest i watched the race and found it quite boring for the eye again. Also there especially, the run off areas are huge which again give it that empty characterless feeling.

That's probably the reason why they try to put original architectural structures and grandstands around the circuit, so at least from seeing those on the telly you can differenciate the circuits and know in which country the GP is held haha.

Opinions always differ but in my circuit taste you can call me very conservative; the old hockenheim, the old imola before the 94' tragedy, spa, monza and even suzuka (not designed by tilke by the way, it was a dutchman that did suzuka)... all great circuits, shame the first two got destroyed.
 
True, every Tilke design track has the same characteristics, tight first corner leading into curvy middle section and then you're back to the start/finish straight. I guess they do it for overtaking, but they may have other reasons.

But I think the actual question should be, how many classic tracks are the willing to sacrifice in order to bring other countries into F1.
 
He's not a track designer. He's an Architect. Bernie likes him because he's good at infrastructure.

He has no talent for track design at all. Turn 8 in Turkey is a copy of a turn at Spa which he admitted to, or rather claimed it was inspiration.

The excuse of the FIA rulebook is nonsense. It does not excuse he total lack of feel/inspiration for track design.
 
My only gripe with him is the fact that the tracks feel just a tad too similar, but the Fuji remake is fantastic and so are many other tracks he's done.
 
The problem that I see with him is the way he design his track. His designs are all based on 'formula' which means he's good in designing tracks that are technical/demanding for the drivers and cars but not good in giving some race entertainment unlike some other classic circuits like Spa. This also leads to why we have so many tracks that in the end, feels a tad too similar like OK8 has mentioned. At least that's the way I see it...

I also made an article regarding to this issue in my blog.
 
*Sees title "What to do with Tilke?" - Automatic answer "Shoot him?"

Honestly, I had a post on here a few months ago, and it turns out that all but THREE of the current F1 tracks are Tilke-ized. It's a bit of a monopoly. Why not give another firm a shot at being big?
 
The large run off areas also don't impede the drivers for going off track. If there was grass the car would be much more likely to spin, I don't want crashes but I don't want the drivers to use the run off areas so easily.
 
I will always strongly dislike him for razing the old hockenheim


Edit: Hmmmm i just noticed one bit of the Shanghai track looks exactly like Sepang
 
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gorsad
The large run off areas also don't impede the drivers for going off track. If there was grass the car would be much more likely to spin, I don't want crashes but I don't want the drivers to use the run off areas so easily.
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True, the sight of drivers getting stuck in the graveltrap after a mistake used to be so common years ago. Now they can run wide onto the "747 runway" multiple times, and only have to fear a penalty...
 
mister dog
True, the sight of drivers getting stuck in the graveltrap after a mistake used to be so common years ago. Now they can run wide onto the "747 runway" multiple times, and only have to fear a penalty...
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However, they are safer because they allow cars to stop or slow in an accident and unlike grass or gravel, the cars do not dig in and flip over.

I think major braking zones like at the ends of straights and high-speed corners should have tarmac run-off.
But all other corners should have grass or gravel (or both). Abu Dhabi has far too much tarmac where there really doesn't need to be, the entire sector 3 is tarmac run-off but none of the corners require it.

We also have to decide do we like cars being retired from minor mistakes or accidents like oil or do prefer more cars actually racing because they get a second chance with tarmac run-off? A bit of oil or locking the brakes can lead to retirement if the car slides into gravel and becomes stuck - I can see the both sides of this being good or bad. Mistakes should be punished sure, the drivers shouldn't be able to simply driver outside the confines of the track if they make mistakes but continue without penalty. But equally I'm not sure I really enjoy seeing multiple cars retire or multiple safety cars while beached cars are removed.
 
JohneyPixel
I will always strongly dislike him for razing the old hockenheim


Edit: Hmmmm i just noticed one bit of the Shanghai track looks exactly like Sepang
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You do realize it was not Tilkes idea. Why do people think Tilke just decides he is gonna trash a race track. At least do some reading on it guys..

Hockenheimring
2001 redesign
In the early 2000s, F1 officials demanded the 6.823 km (4.240 mi) track be shortened and threatened to discontinue racing there, due to competition from other tracks such as the EuroSpeedway Lausitz and sites in Asia. The state government of Baden-Württemberg secured the financing for the redesign by Hermann Tilke for the 2002 German Grand Prix.
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A1-Ring
The Österreichring's safety concerns reached a head in 1987 when that year's race needed two restarts following crashes on the starting grid. As a result, the track was abandoned by Formula One for nearly a decade. In 1995 and 1996, it was totally rebuilt, at the same site, by Hermann Tilke.
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