Whats your take...Nissan GT-R vs ZR1

[Joey D]

Removed because after careful consideration I find this debate to be lame.

 

[niky]

Well... it's way too early to tell. A lot of things may change between now and when the ZR1 come out, and most likely the most accurate point of comparison will be the ZR1 and the GT-R V-Spec.

Right now, on paper, the ZR1 has all the aces over the "regular" GT-R. But that's on paper. No one knows how it will drive in the real world. Not yet. Right now, I'd give it a 80% chance to outperform the GT-R and a 60-70% chance to outperform the V-Spec. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[exigeracer]

How many of you would go to the level of saying that both cars could be just about even, even if both cars were better at certain areas of expertise?

If that were the case, then this thread wouldn't exist and neither would many other.s

 

[Keef]

I would be.

I would be also. I think the ZR1 will have an obvious advantage on the straight sections of track, but it's going to be much more difficult to pilot out of all those tight corners and over the track's rough surface. I think the cars will be nearly equal on the Nurburgring, but out on one of these fancy new smooth F1-style race tracks the ZR1 would be able to use the wide, sweeping corners and long straights to its advantage. And on a small, tight track like Tsukuba (where BM will probably test the two) the GT-R would annihilate the ZR1. All-wheel drive seems nearly unbeatable in those tight hairpins. The two cars will be like the Audi R10 LMP1 cars vs. Porsche's LMP2 cars. One is way faster but the other one seems to always win because of easier handling.

 

[YSSMAN]

...And on a small, tight track like Tsukuba (where BM will probably test the two) the GT-R would annihilate the ZR1. All-wheel drive seems nearly unbeatable in those tight hairpins...

You're absolutely right on that point, even if the Corvette is shockingly fast. The thing is, GM hasn't really given us any hints as to how well Stabilitrak and Magnaride will work together, and although the Ferrari 599 was their benchmark, even the "basic" Z06 was able to match (and outdo?) the Ferrari with relative ease.

Like I've said before in other places...

Z06 ---> GT-R : Its going to depend on the track and whos driving, but as it looks right now, the GT-R gets the advantage, especially on more technical circuits. I will happily say that it is essentially unbeatable to 100 MPH, but the Corvette is only fractions of a second behind, and eventually narrows the gap afterwards.

ZR1 ---> GT-R V-Spec: They're going to be closer in price and performance, and in the end, the Chevy takes the cake there. The extra power and fancy suspension may give it the win, that is, if what the GM engineers are promising is true.

Either way, the four separate models are just about the fastest cars you can buy for $100K or less, and you're likely to be happy with whatever you pick. I like my cars a bit more "natural," so I'll go with the Vette under all circumstances, but thats because I'm an ass-backward American.

 

[niky]

...but thats because I'm an ass-backward American.

Aww... come on... everyone knows it's the 911 that's bass-ackwards, what with its engine hanging a few feet further south than strictly necessary.

The one big thing for the ZR-1 is suspension tuning. The Z06 was grippy enough, stiff enough and light enough to make a very good track car, but there was always that nagging doubt regarding how trustworthy it was on track. The ZR1 deserves a good amount of suspension development to match the GT-R (as well as, admittedly, some great tires to match what the GT-R is on). The GT-R has a two year head-start. GM has some catching up to do.

What I'd like to know is... what is Porsche doing about all these upstarts coming over to kick the crap out of the Turbo? One hopes that they've gone back to the drawing board and are creating an uber-911 to compete with these new performance cars. That'd be something to see.

 

[YSSMAN]

RE: The Corvette suspension setup

For the second year of the Z06 they adjusted the rear shocks (and springs?) and as I recall the reviews said that it had a more "secure" feel. Added to that, they changed the steering rack as well, which made it a bit less-sloppy and certainly added to the overall confidence of the car. That seems pretty evident when both of the Corvettes (Z51 and Z06) tore the competition apart at C&D's Lighting Lap for 2007. Hell, as I recall, even the "basic" Z51 blew the 911 Turbo away... But, it isn't as though the Z06 was really all that far behind in its most-recent update. In nearly every measurement, its either fractions ahead or fractions behind the GT-R, and given the differences in time at which they debuted, I'm okay with that.

But to go on the ZR1, given that Delphi has had the time to modify Magnaride to work pretty damn well on the TT and the 599 (thats right, they have Corvette/STS bits underneath), I imagine that GM has managed to smooth things over as well. If the system is going to work that well on the ZR1, lets say to 599 specifications, I have very little to worry about in my mind to make it anywhere close to "sloppy" by comparison to the GT-R. That being said, the nature of the layout and nearly 650 BHP is going to have some consequences if the driver doesn't know what they're doing, so that may very well factor into the times.

...Which is where Stabilitrak comes in (unfortunately)...

====

RE: What the hell is Porsche doing?

Its a good question. As my second-favorite, I always like to see them competing closely with the Corvette at whatever level you wish to identify. If the Z51 is tearing the 911 Turbo a new one, thats a problem, especially when 997 first debuted, that was when the Porsche was happy to beat-up on it with the 911 Carrera S.

My guess is that they're going to push the GT2 as the "pinnacle" car, but if I were to be directing the engineers, I'd be looking to improve performance from the bottom-up, not top-down. I've always found that the more "basic" 911s are preferential to me because of the low-profile looks and otherwise exceedingly good performance. But quite obviously, between the Corvette and the R8, they've got a lot that they're going to need to work on... And soon.

 

[shoman]

GT-R. GM is hurting for money I doubt this car comes out. But maybe this car will help them. since the viper is going away.

 

[MustangSVT]

ZR-1 might be faster on a track due to considerably more power. But in terms of which car I would pick for any sort of use if I had like $100K, I wouldn't even consider the Corvette, the GT-R is such a better car in just about everything I can think of, and 638HP is far too much to be used on the road and consumes gas insanely I bet.

 

[Greycap]

Personally I think that the comparison isn't fair even to begin with, it pits the top of the line Corvette against the base model GT-R. To put it in perspective, would it be fair to pit the Z51 Corvette against the GT-R V-Spec? I didn't think so either.

But the alarming thing for GM is that it's really the top dog ZR-1 that is needed to shake the GT-R. The Z51 has nothing to say and even the Z06 is comfortably beaten by the base model Nissan when looking at something else than acceleration and top speed. If - and it's really an "if", nothing can be taken for granted having seen how the GT-R performs - the ZR-1 can beat the GT-R I'm still not sure if it's a proper victory for the Corvette. They've shown the best they have but the competitor is just warming up.

 

[neanderthal]

quite a few of you lack reasoning skills. you are supposed to make an argument for one car over the other. not pick your favourite. others of you have a modicum of reason, you consider power to weight, but dont consider the venue.

------

the ring, also known as the green hell is a suspension track. power helps on any track, but the ring is not smooth. its quite bumpy. odd cambers. etc. it works a suspension to no end.

the zr1 may be lighter and have more power, but unless it manages to put down its power quicker, is it really going to go much faster than the z06?

in other words, youve got a 500hp car, coming out of a corner. you are not going to be able to employ all 500 hp immediately after passing the apex. unless you want to go into the hedge. you have to wait until you have enough traction or runoff space before you can stick your foot in it and release all 500 horseys. assuming the same exact car, how much sooner are you going to be able to accelerate in that same corner with 600 horses and even more torque? answer, not any sooner, in fact, probably later.


my take
the track, with its many corners, favours the GT-R. it can put all its power down immediately.

power= zr1. thats a given.
acceleration= tie. the gtr pips a z06 in acceleration, but the zr1 will be faster, so tie
handling= tie. strictly skidpad stuff here. not track.
braking= tie. given the sheer number of corners at the ring id tend to give the edge to the vette being that its lighter and all, but the gtr brakes are phenomenal.

so given the advantage the zr1 has in that little comparo why do i favour the gtr? because there is only one place where the power of the zr1 is going to really work in its favour. on that long back straight. where its top speed is going to be better than the gtr.
but there are so many corners before that long straight where the gtr is going to start accelerating sooner. and eke out a lead.

 

[YSSMAN]

GT-R. GM is hurting for money I doubt this car comes out. But maybe this car will help them. since the viper is going away.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. The ZR1 has been in development since 2005, and generally speaking, uses off-the-shelf parts to make it one helluva supercar. The Viper has had little to no effect on Corvette sales, and if anything, the Corvette has sold more cars since the Viper has debuted.

To be frank, GM is in the best position out of any of the American automakers, and suggesting even in the slightest that they won't have any money to produce a car is irrational given what will likely create enormous profit margins from it. They wouldn't be making them if they weren't going to sell them...

======

Personally I think that the comparison isn't fair even to begin with, it pits the top of the line Corvette against the base model GT-R. To put it in perspective, would it be fair to pit the Z51 Corvette against the GT-R V-Spec? I didn't think so either.

Agreed here, its the Z06 who should be fighting the GT-R, its the ZR1 that should be fighting the V-Spec. Thats more or less a game of pricing and power, and will likely make things closer altogether. I'd say those are the fair comparisons, and the way they should remain.

But the alarming thing for GM is that it's really the top dog ZR-1 that is needed to shake the GT-R.

I don't think GM has singled-out the GT-R alone, but more or less, that they want to take the production car lead... Which includes the Carrera GT and the Zonda F, so I don't think it was anything personal against the Nissan. But its the internet, and I think we can all see that in there to some extent.

The Z51 has nothing to say and even the Z06 is comfortably beaten by the base model Nissan when looking at something else than acceleration and top speed.

The Z51 obviously has the odds stacked against it to start, but even then, you aren't going to be able to find a car thats faster for less than $50K. The Z06, however, is about as close as you can get to the GT-R for the money (the Corvette is still cheaper, remember... Better gas mileage, better warranty, serviceable at more places as well) and for performance. Fractions of a second based on technology that is now three years older is still pretty good if you ask me.

They've shown the best they have but the competitor is just warming up.

And that is a completely valid point as well. We're still what, a year away from the debut of the V-Spec? The ZR1 won't hit the streets until the end of the summer, and even then, most of the mules aren't anywhere close to production spec either...

We'll see what happens. The Corvette should take the production car record, possibly, but the V-Spec will likely match it or beat it. Slightly.

=======

the zr1 may be lighter and have more power, but unless it manages to put down its power quicker, is it really going to go much faster than the z06?

Its the $60,000 question... How well will Stabilitrak and Magnaride work together to keep the ZR1 planted? If the mule is already dipping pretty low in the lap times, I imagine the production car will do well. But given that their benchmark was the 599, it may not be exactly what is needed to beat the GT-R under all circumstances.

 

[ferrari_chris]

... It seems to follow the American ethos of just dropping more and more power into a car until it can go fast enough. ...

I agree completely. 👍

... like why do you need 6.0 Liters for crap cars that can't even take corners ...

+1

okay, let's put both cars advantages here..

...

4.) Looks: - This is a matter of taste, but I've read multiple comments about the tacky screen in the bonnet that lets you see the intercooler of ZR1. And for average Joe, that is the only thing that separates it from the regular, run-of-the-mill Corvettes if the badges are left out. GT-R.. Well, the designer has a thing for Mechas, gigantic anime robots, and it looks like one too.

5.) Price: - Corvette ZR1 is going to run around 100k, without dealer markups. GT-R? 70-76k.

From these points I've made, you can draw conclusion that GT-R is better bang for the buck, anytime, anywhere, unless you have urge to get somewhere mere 15mph faster than in a GT-R.

How does any of that relate to which will be faster around the Nurburgring?

For everyone bringing price into the equation: what does that have to do with this topic?

quite a few of you lack reasoning skills. you are supposed to make an argument for one car over the other. not pick your favourite. others of you have a modicum of reason, you consider power to weight, but dont consider the venue.

------

the ring, also known as the green hell is a suspension track. power helps on any track, but the ring is not smooth. its quite bumpy. odd cambers. etc. it works a suspension to no end.

the zr1 may be lighter and have more power, but unless it manages to put down its power quicker, is it really going to go much faster than the z06?

in other words, youve got a 500hp car, coming out of a corner. you are not going to be able to employ all 500 hp immediately after passing the apex. unless you want to go into the hedge. you have to wait until you have enough traction or runoff space before you can stick your foot in it and release all 500 horseys. assuming the same exact car, how much sooner are you going to be able to accelerate in that same corner with 600 horses and even more torque? answer, not any sooner, in fact, probably later.


my take
the track, with its many corners, favours the GT-R. it can put all its power down immediately.

...

Again, I agree.

My vote goes to the GTR because, to put it very simply, the Nurburgring has corners. All the Corvette's engine size and power advantages are negated by the fact you need to brake and turn as well. And then throw in the uneven surface and camber changes - the engine size and power are actually a disadvantage IMO.

I also agree with whoever it was that commented about this being Corvette's top trump vs. an inital attempt at the GTR. 👍

 

[exigeracer]

RE: What the hell is Porsche doing?

Porsche has nothing to fear from the Corvette, no matter how good the ZR1 seems or ends up to be. The 911 is an iconic, influential and massively popular car on any scale no matter what market or price range you are looking at (the 911 covers a variety). This little who is the best battle for the top of the cheap supercar title means so little for Porsche, the most profitable manufacturer in the world. Sure, grabbing top honors would do them good in the long run, they're still earning a lot more money worldwide than Chevrolet is, especially when outside the USDM the Corvette is nothing more than a novelty.

 

[YSSMAN]

Quite right, and I have little to argue with there. The only time Porsche ever has to worry is in the North American market, and even then, they're still selling more cars than they can ship here... Corvette guys will buy Corvettes, Porsche guys will buy Porsches, and then you get guys like me who buy both. Probably used. In need of repair.

Truth be told, Porsche has more to worry about in-house *cough*R8*cough* than the Corvette. But even then, its still a different game altogether.

 

[niky]

Well... let's see where GM goes with this one.

With the proper traction control, stability control and adaptive suspension, you can make a rear-wheel drive monster into a proper track car. Porsche has shown that it's possible. GM may know how to do it. It's very hard to argue whether or not the ZR1 will until we actually see it walk the walk or fall short.

For everyone claiming that it's yet another prehistoric, overpowered American piece of crud... watch what you say... the C5 Z06 has proven that the Corvette is not all mouth and no trousers. Power is power. Whether you do it through high revs, turbocharging/supercharging or displacement. What matters is how reliably you can make it, how flexible you can make that engine, and how light you can make that engine. And one reason GM sticks to that OHV design is that it allows them to make a relatively light powerplant that makes power reliably... which the C5R has proven in endurance racing, time and time again.

Smaller turbos can also make big power, but you'll notice that manufacturers are increasing the size of these engines, too... the bigger the displacement, the less stressed a turbocharged engine can be and the more power it can put out. High-revving screamers like in Porsche and BMW are getting bigger, as well... simply, to keep up with the competition, you need torque. And that's something a high displacement engine gives you in spades.

And the Corvette actually can handle... though, as some will say, not quite as good as the class leaders (But the extra power doesn't hurt its showing at the track). With more development, it will be possible to build a Corvette that is in every way a match for the 911 or even a class-leader. Possible. Not Impossible, but not guaranteed. Note that GM is now a mainstay at the Nurb, and does a lot of testing there. They're serious about building serious sports cars, and you've got to give them recognition for that, if nothing else.

I'm waiting to see.

 

[Leonidae]

Ferrari_Chris, well.. if you look at JohnBM01's post, I was answering to that, and I brought out all points that have to be considered when getting a car. and topic title doesn't say a word about nurb, so your question is pointless. Price does matter, since with that ~30k which separates GT-R and ZR1, you can buy a second car.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Well... let's see where GM goes with this one.

With the proper traction control, stability control and adaptive suspension, you can make a rear-wheel drive monster into a proper track car. Porsche has shown that it's possible. GM may know how to do it. It's very hard to argue whether or not the ZR1 will until we actually see it walk the walk or fall short.

For everyone claiming that it's yet another prehistoric, overpowered American piece of crud... watch what you say... the C5 Z06 has proven that the Corvette is not all mouth and no trousers. Power is power. Whether you do it through high revs, turbocharging/supercharging or displacement. What matters is how reliably you can make it, how flexible you can make that engine, and how light you can make that engine. And one reason GM sticks to that OHV design is that it allows them to make a relatively light powerplant that makes power reliably... which the C5R has proven in endurance racing, time and time again.

Smaller turbos can also make big power, but you'll notice that manufacturers are increasing the size of these engines, too... the bigger the displacement, the less stressed a turbocharged engine can be and the more power it can put out. High-revving screamers like in Porsche and BMW are getting bigger, as well... simply, to keep up with the competition, you need torque. And that's something a high displacement engine gives you in spades.

And the Corvette actually can handle... though, as some will say, not quite as good as the class leaders (But the extra power doesn't hurt its showing at the track). With more development, it will be possible to build a Corvette that is in every way a match for the 911 or even a class-leader. Possible. Not Impossible, but not guaranteed. Note that GM is now a mainstay at the Nurb, and does a lot of testing there. They're serious about building serious sports cars, and you've got to give them recognition for that, if nothing else.

I'm waiting to see.

You've got the right idea. And don't forget, as I've already said (despite people ignoring me and blurting out lies anyway), the ZR1 has more work done in the handling side of things than the power. It's a complete package work over, yet all we've heard from the V-Spec is more power and less weight.(And bigger brakes?)
And on the future Corvette becoming a competitor in every way, I am actually expecting it more than anything else. Due to CAFE regulations GM have already stated that future Corvettes will get smaller, lighter, and less powerful keeping the same PWRs. That can only be good IMO, same acceleration, better handling.

 

[exigeracer]

Corvette guys will buy Corvettes, Porsche guys will buy Porsches,

Yes, plus the thing is, there are thousands and thousands of non-Porsche guys who will buy Porsches. Go to any business district of a larger city, other than S-Classes and other exec saloons, it's all 911. This is where the money's at.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Yes, plus the thing is, there are thousands and thousands of non-Porsche guys who will buy Porsches. Go to any business district of a larger city, other than S-Classes and other exec saloons, it's all 911. This is where the money's at.

It's not like the Corvette isn't attracting thousands of middle-aged men.

 

[neanderthal]

You've got the right idea. And don't forget, as I've already said (despite people ignoring me and blurting out lies anyway), the ZR1 has more work done in the handling side of things than the power. It's a complete package work over, yet all we've heard from the V-Spec is more power and less weight.(And bigger brakes?)......

youre definitely right. from the C5, GM has put serious thought and engineering into the the corvette. the C5 was the first car that could take on the best from the world.

the problem that i see is this. the C6 Z06 is already a potent weapon. it already embarrasses a lot of iron that costs a lot more. how much more can GM eke out of an already brilliant track weapon. this is why i gave the example of the 500 and 600 hp cars. the chassis is stiff. thats good. we know that. the brakes are superb. we know that. the suspension has already been gone over to create the Z06 model vs the standard one. adding power to that equation gets you nowhere unless the suspension has been gone over with a fine tooth comb.

and a lot of my reading says the vette is an animal on smooth tracks but its not so fond of rougher tracks. this is why i dont favour it over the Gt-R at this venue. coupled with the nissans ability to accelerate sooner,.................

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

youre definitely right. from the C5, GM has put serious thought and engineering into the the corvette. the C5 was the first car that could take on the best from the world.

the problem that i see is this. the C6 Z06 is already a potent weapon. it already embarrasses a lot of iron that costs a lot more. how much more can GM eke out of an already brilliant track weapon. this is why i gave the example of the 500 and 600 hp cars. the chassis is stiff. thats good. we know that. the brakes are superb. we know that. the suspension has already been gone over to create the Z06 model vs the standard one. adding power to that equation gets you nowhere unless the suspension has been gone over with a fine tooth comb.

and a lot of my reading says the vette is an animal on smooth tracks but its not so fond of rougher tracks. this is why i dont favour it over the Gt-R at this venue. coupled with the nissans ability to accelerate sooner,.................

With the ZR1 the suspension has been gone over with a fine tooth comb though, which is why we are so excited. With MRC they can have multiple suspension settings changed at the push of a button. If the soft one suits the Burger better than it will perform better than the Z06. I have little doubt they've done their best to compensate the extra power.

 

[YSSMAN]

Quite right, this is Magnaride's big splash in the performance world for the Corvette. You can order it on the "lesser" models, but generally speaking, its not a performance option whatsoever. However, I recall that when the C6 first debuted, a change of tires on the Magnaride car had it handling better than the Z51... Which does bode well for the ZR1, which will likely fix both the harsh-ride issue of the Z06 and offer a more-aggressive setup for track racing as well.

Time will tell, but I'm not about to sell GM short.

 

[exigeracer]

It's not like the Corvette isn't attracting thousands of middle-aged men.

Not even close to as many as actual sales as Porsche does.

Last night I was stumbling home from the bar and I heard a snarly downshift. I turned my head and saw a sleek C6Z06 pull up from the stoplight and turn by me and park just across the road. It was shorter, louder and more sensual than I thought (all good things), but I still found no interest in it. The owner stepped out and gave me this "I know you're jealous" look, but I really wasn't. I thought this real experience would've changed my expectations as it has with other cars before (996GT3 in particular, I absolutely melted for these things when I got an up-and-close experience with one), but nope, no reaction at all.

 

[YSSMAN]

The Corvette is going to appeal to a different type of consumer, generally. I like the big power of a V8, and the relatively "simple" nature of the beast altogether. But, given that its taken a lot of its stuff from Germany as of late... Its a much better car than it was back in the C4 generation. But even then, it was still a very good car, just not on the world stage.

Which reminds me: I should forget all of this Mazda3 business and just buy a used C4 Corvette...

 

[neanderthal]

Last night I was stumbling home from the bar and I heard a snarly downshift. I turned my head and saw a sleek C6Z06 pull up from the stoplight and turn by me and park just across the road. It was shorter, louder and more sensual than I thought (all good things), but I still found no interest in it. The owner stepped out and gave me this "I know you're jealous" look, but I really wasn't. I thought this real experience would've changed my expectations as it has with other cars before (996GT3 in particular, I absolutely melted for these things when I got an up-and-close experience with one), but nope, no reaction at all.

i was gonna call you an elitist, but then again, i realised i would have the same reaction to a vette vs a porsche. its the interior. the porsche interior does feel special. at least compared to any vette.

but for me the 993 is the dogs danglies.

 

[neanderthal]

The Corvette is going to appeal to a different type of consumer, generally. I like the big power of a V8, and the relatively "simple" nature of the beast altogether. But, given that its taken a lot of its stuff from Germany as of late... Its a much better car than it was back in the C4 generation. But even then, it was still a very good car, just not on the world stage.

Which reminds me: I should forget all of this Mazda3 business and just buy a used C4 Corvette...

youd settle for a car you just said wasnt world class?

 

[niky]

Admitted wasn't... but would be a good value for the price.

Still, I'm of the opinion, don't buy a 40k plus car unless you can afford to maintain a 40k plus car, even if depreciation puts it in your price range. For a daily driver, I'd stick to the econobox. And when you have enough disposable income in the future, go ahead and get that sports car you've always wanted. At least (eventual) six or seven dollar gas won't hurt you as much then, if you're only buying the car for the occassional weekend romp.

 

[ferrari_chris]

... topic title doesn't say a word about nurb, so your question is pointless ...

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Which reminds me: I should forget all of this Mazda3 business and just buy a used C4 Corvette...

Go for gold If you can afford it.