Wheel Comparison? Fanatec Logitech

[Zoom!Zoom!]

I've always been told the opposite is true.

Basically the cheaper wheels are less realistic due to less sophisticated force feedback mechanisms. This equates to being easier to drive than a wheel with strong force feedback features. ...

There has always been a debate with some sim racers if ffb effect themselves slow you down .I remember Darin at ISR mention he had some top sim racers to tried out T500RS and some of them turn off the ffb effects. (center spring only)
Nothing feel close to the real thing so there is a learning curve even using a load cell. There is always that disconnection between the hardware and the software. IRL there is no lag between input and output.

 

[lemansfanatic]

There has always been a debate with some sim racers if ffb effect themselves slow you down .I remember Darin at ISR mention he had some top sim racers to tried out T500RS and some of them turn off the ffb effects. (center spring only)
Nothing feel close to the real thing so there is a learning curve even using a load cell. There is always that disconnection between the hardware and the software. IRL there is no lag between input and output.

Pffsssh, if you have the option of realistic force feedback and you turn it off just to make yourself faster, your not a real sim racer, your a video gamer!

 

[swiftwilly]

ISR have the exact test your looking for on you tube somewhere.

5 wheel shoot out.

Although there are newer wheels available since then.
Can't provide a link sorry.

A lot of people put pedals above wheels as the primary upgrade and biggest boost to lap times.

yes, its via the simracingtonight show. really good. helped me with my decision. it really came down to G27 and Fanatec GT3. I chose Fanatec because of the clubsports although G27's are a lot cheaper, depends on your budget.

low budget - G27

Mid - Fanatec

High - Thrustmaster

 

[Patrick]

yes, its via the simracingtonight show. really good. helped me with my decision. it really came down to G27 and Fanatec GT3. I chose Fanatec because of the clubsports although G27's are a lot cheaper, depends on your budget.

low budget - G27

Mid - Fanatec

High - Thrustmaster

There are some high budget Fanatecs.

 

[Raitziger]

Pffsssh, if you have the option of realistic force feedback and you turn it off just to make yourself faster, your not a real sim racer, your a video gamer!

Good point!

 

[12thgear]

Pffsssh, if you have the option of realistic force feedback and you turn it off just to make yourself faster, your not a real sim racer, your a video gamer!

Or you're a serious, high-level competitor and you'll do anything you can within the rules to gain every available advantage. For the longest time, Frex and ECCI didn't even offer force feedback wheels. What they offered were very fluid, very precise wheels, built to a very high standard. A lot of veteran racers back in the day that FFB was a video gamer gimmick.

I'm just playing devil's advocate though. I personally love having force feedback and wouldn't drive without it.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Pffsssh, if you have the option of realistic force feedback and you turn it off just to make yourself faster, your not a real sim racer, your a video gamer!

But we don't have the option of "realistic" force feedback. A lot of ffb effects are far from being realistic.

P.S While I don't necessary agree with this article conclusion yet it does a descent job explaining the difference from how ffb wheel and software works compared to real life. In a nutshell a real steering wheel reacts to the force you apply to it which is something a simulator doesn't measure nor consider.

 

[lemansfanatic]

But we don't have the option of "realistic" force feedback. A lot of ffb effects are far from being realistic.

P.S While I don't necessary agree with this article conclusion yet it does a descent job explaining the difference from how ffb wheel and software works compared to real life. In a nutshell a real steering wheel reacts to the force you apply to it which is something a simulator doesn't measure nor consider.

I don't want to start an argument over semantics here, and you highlighted the exact KEY word "realistic". Sim racing is about simulating reality, so if you have a device like a transducer, shift light, or whatnot that creates more of a immersion into an artificial reality, its great. I understand we haven't always had force feedback, and I understand not everyone has "realistic" force feedback, but my point was the ones that do have it available, and don't use it are not playing for the same reasons most of us are. They just want to win at something, not feel like they're IN the game itself. To each his own though.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

The heart of racing is to win which is the reason h-shifters are out of style.
That's one of the points that ffb is it not realistic but is very "gamey". If my car wheel acted like a ffb wheel especially in Gt5 I would put it in the shop immediately.

 

[12thgear]

The heart of racing is to win which is the reason h-shifters are out of style.
That's one of the points that ffb is it not realistic but most gimmick. If my car wheel acted like a ffb wheel especially in Gt5 I would put it in the shop immediately.

Ha, you beat me to it with the GT5 comment, but I still don't think that's necessarily an indictment of force feedback.

There seem to be two types of force feedback out there: feedback that aims to feel similar to what you feel when gripping a real steering wheel, and feedback that aims to communicate more of what the car is doing via the wheel since you lose the seat of your pants sensations. I think both are valid and useful.

 

[lemansfanatic]

When I drivin around in ma reel car, the wheel like moves n stuff, so force feedback is like reality n stuff cuz it makes the wheel move. Gol-ly why ya gotta make things suh complicated sonny?

 

[superbike81]

The CSW looks like currently the perfect sim racing wheel, shame they couldn't get 360 support.

Respectfully disagree.....

It would have been a shame if the did have 360 support. Due to the 360 support, the CSR-Elite now has an arbitrary limitation of what it is capable of. As Thomas said, there are so many more possibilities for customization in the CSW since they don't have to follow the ridiculous rules that Microsoft has put in place.

I'm sure the CSR Elite will be a great wheel for Xbox owners, bit in my opinion if you aren't planning on playing on the 360, that wheel is a waste of money and potential. I mean it's only an extra $60 for the CSW with one wheel attachment.

 

[lemansfanatic]

I think he just meant it would be great (even though its impossible) to have all the features of the CSW AND 360 support.

 

[LogiForce]

I wonder if someone could make an open source HID to XID adapter with compatible drivers in the adapter. Making the Xbox think an Elite is attached but you plug in a CSW or T500 RS instead for example. Technically it should be possible but I don't think you can get official support from MS for this. lol

 

[lemansfanatic]

Probably not going to happen, that would be a rediculously intensive modification because thomas said the electronics in the two bases CSRE and CSW are completely different. The next best thing would to modify a CSRE with your own quick release and an additional plug quick disconnecting plug for the wiring harness (a semi-quick release). But you'd still only have the functionality of however many buttons the Xbox supports.

 

[LogiForce]

Probably not going to happen, that would be a rediculously intensive modification because thomas said the electronics in the two bases CSRE and CSW are completely different. The next best thing would to modify a CSRE with your own quick release and an additional plug quick disconnecting plug for the wiring harness (a semi-quick release). But you'd still only have the functionality of however many buttons the Xbox supports.

The electronics don't matter that are in the wheel. What I am talking about is intercepting and translating the signals coming from and too the wheel plus letting the Xbox know the Elite is attached so you get the proper force feedback signals and accessory support like h shifters and handbrakes. It's just that as long as the wheel receives it's instructions in the language it knows the workings of the internal electronics won't matter.

Like the XCM box but then properly done and not half assed.

 

[VWMasteR]

Respectfully disagree.....

It would have been a shame if the did have 360 support. Due to the 360 support, the CSR-Elite now has an arbitrary limitation of what it is capable of. As Thomas said, there are so many more possibilities for customization in the CSW since they don't have to follow the ridiculous rules that Microsoft has put in place.

I'm sure the CSR Elite will be a great wheel for Xbox owners, bit in my opinion if you aren't planning on playing on the 360, that wheel is a waste of money and potential. I mean it's only an extra $60 for the CSW with one wheel attachment.

I was actually with you on quite a few of your posts. This one is not one of them. It isn't just 60 it's 100USD + tax (maybe duty also) or 100EU. Second, if you were only going to PC game then it would be obvious to shell out the extra for the CSW, this is almost just stating the obvious. And as Saudir_Ali is right, it is a shame that they couldn't some how work around the licensing issue. Thomas didn't call microsoft rules ridiculous... Actually I'm going to let this one go.

 

[superbike81]

Thomas didn't use the word ridiculous, you are right, but one of the comments he made about it being like a "religion" just to get the MS certification says enough. Also the CSW can be used on PS3 too.

How is not a $60 difference?

CSR-Elite is $540 right? Or did I read a bad source of info?
CSW is supposed to be $450 + $150 for the wheel attachment.

That says $60 difference to me. But my numbers might be incorrect.

 

[HoiHman]

Thomas didn't use the word ridiculous, you are right, but one of the comments he made about it being like a "religion" just to get the MS certification says enough. Also the CSW can be used on PS3 too.

How is not a $60 difference?

CSR-Elite is $540 right? Or did I read a bad source of info?
CSW is supposed to be $450 + $150 for the wheel attachment.

That says $60 difference to me. But my numbers might be incorrect.

The CSR Elite supposed to be 499,- and is now 540 in preorder because of extra shipping cost.

You can expect the CSW to have the same preorder at extra shipping cost, so most likely it will be 640,- instead of 600,-

When the wheel are in stock at the fanatec wharehouses the normal orders will be possible at the price of 499,- for the CSR Elite and 599,- for the CSW.

 

[HoiHman]

Probably not going to happen, that would be a rediculously intensive modification because thomas said the electronics in the two bases CSRE and CSW are completely different. The next best thing would to modify a CSRE with your own quick release and an additional plug quick disconnecting plug for the wiring harness (a semi-quick release). But you'd still only have the functionality of however many buttons the Xbox supports.

Since fanatec is all ways innovating their products, i think we can expect a CSR Elite wheel with quick release somewhere is the distant future.

It might not be hot pluggable, they might even wait untill the next xbox specs are known.

Since there is a demand for a xbox wheel with quick release, there just might a fanatec wheel with one some day.

 

[Caz]

I think not.

Lets look at this from a business perspective.
You are looking at developing and releasing a new high end wheel. Time to look at your finances.R&D time, many prototypes, computer coding time, man hours in meetings, flights, travel expenses etc..... all add up very quickly when developing and preparing a product for market.
Sooo, lets make a number up here......
After 200,000 development costs you have this super pimp CSW ready to take to the next level of development. Licensing and compatibility. Two systems use one interface to read your device and the third uses a proprietary interface. So you head on over to those guys about using that interface alongside the others. No no no says the big wigs. That csw thing has way too much awesome for us, you have to do it this way.
Now your thinking, hmmm these guys have a great racing franchise, I could stick with what I offer now (GT2) fir those guys and release the new wheel as is. ( prob exactly what the csr:e is now, or closer to it than the csw) or I could develop a wheel that fits their needs, and improve on it fir the upper tier wheel.

Again, money spent on a new design to be fully compatible, along with more money on upgrading your almost released product to stand out above the rest.
As a company, you wouldnt want to release to products that directly compete, essentially, with each other. Or would you rather have been able to have one high end wheel?

I could be way wrong, but Im pretty sure Thomas would have been very happy if the forza branded wheel could have been as simple as a quick release rim for the csw base as opposed to having to develop a " lesser " base for the wheel that supports more games.

It is confusing why MS has seemingly got 3rd party manufacturers on lockdown as far as functionality when they themselves dont follow the same rules.
Take the wireless bull horn thing, it does not have all button functionality they require others to have.
Kinect has been left open to modders and is being encouraged by MS. Why cant wheel modders have the same luxory?




Wow sorry long 2am rant post.
This is in no way aimed at anyone in particular, so please do not take it that way.

 

[LogiForce]

Your a bit wrong in to thinking they didn't change their demand for the CSR Line of wheels, Caz. Thomas said this clearly as well.

In fact on top of the 2 analog sticks (equal with a max of 200 degree rotation), 4 color buttons, back and start button, mandatory guide button (Xbox button), 2 shoulder buttons (used for shifter paddles), D-pad and 2 analog trigger axis (gas and brake). They now added 2 analog trigger axis (progressive handbrake and clutch), 8 more buttons for 7 speed H-shifter (7 plus 1 reverse totals 8) and support for a special 'analog sticks' that support 900 degrees of rotation (replacing one 200 degree stick).

This was all changed and added to properly support a racing wheel and make sim racers happy on their console, even though MS wants to lock it down so that every game supports the same features and equipment without the consumer nor the developer having to think about it. Now that got a bit more difficult since older games like Forza 3 didn't get a 900 degree update I think. Which is something that has to be supported on the game's side, clearly shown by the last Forza 4 update.

 

[Caz]

Well if you want to get technical.
Your right. The moral of my tongue in cheek rant to this redundant question still stands tho

I wish there was only one wheel and that the csw was xbox friendly, even though I do not own one. It would make a decision on which to buy easier for sure. Tho my gt2 is still a good wheel and xbox able if the urge to ever buy one hits me ( punch me ) but I see myself going pc before another console and if i buy a new console it will be for sure a wii u. Any ho!

 

[LogiForce]

I understand your feelings towards wishing something like that, Caz. I am the same. It's just a conflict of interest in the party MS who makes the rules so that you have security in compatibility, usability and being just plug and play. Against obviously the (sim) racer who wants to have the best of all worlds and just one device because of expenses.
To be blunt about it, this conflict sucks donkeywood. You can't have compatibility when you change things to accommodate a CSW, and you'll loose the interest of racers on a max budget that only allows them to buy just one wheel.

I don't think the Wii U will be such a great system for race fans, since nintendo never got further then Mario Kart I believe. So I'm a bit pessimistic about it being successful in that area.

 

[VWMasteR]

Too many incompatibility issues and lack of understanding of what these are designed to do and work with to dive in to an expensive investment. Think I will stick with Logitech as that's most likely what PD works with. Maybe some load cell brakes some day.

In your favour I've used several pedals in my life and there is one thing I can say with 100% certainty. I'm a fan of Fanatec product, but I can't slight the G25 / G27 pedals. They have a really good feel for not being load cell based. Depending on what your price point was I may still say get the Fanatec, but I don't think that those pedals will disappoint. As you say you can see a want for load cell pedals so they may leave you still feeling you should get something else.