Where did PD go Wrong?

  • Thread starter MaDHaX
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I think it would be a good move on their part, it would be like a luxury hangout for friends to cruise and just past time.

Yes they definitely need leaderboards. They did manage to bring something like that for the license test's though, which is good.

I feel the same as your posting of this thread. The best part of Horizon to me was the interstate road, but it was too short and the cars merging into my lane always left me with the 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. Stay in your own 🤬 lane!

I have Race Room and AC on Steam, if you want to add me same gamertag!
 
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Where did PD go wrong? I would say in refusing or failing to address issues the franchise has had since Day 1. If GT6 was the same game except for really good sound and AI, it's reception would have been alot better.

GT4 had some of the worst AI and sound ever featured in a racing game, but its looked back on fondly by many. Why? I think its because GT had very little competition back then. Now GT has to deal with a very mature Forza franchise, Project CARS, iRacing, rFactor, and more. Even if GT fans dont buy these other games, they see how those titles are doing some things very well that GT does poorly if at all.

PD cant simply rely on car and track count anymore. They have to address legacy issues, the biggest being sound, AI, and customization which oddly enough has only gone backwards since the first game in 1998 which let every car get a race mod.

Also some things you use to be able to count on in the GT franchise arent so dependable anymore. For instance, graphics. It use to be by far and away the graphics king of racers, with solid framerate and no eyesores (standards, shadows etc) but now it may not even make the podium. The car list use to be ace, GT4 probably had the best car list of any racer ever for its time, but the car list has since sunk into featuring whoever is the highest bidder or Kaz's favorites rather then the most exciting and important road and racecars at the time.

Its gotten to the point where all GT does really good anymore is driving physics. That has to change.
 
I think PD went wrong by resting on their laurels after GT4 and failing to recognise the competition the racing sim market now provides. It seems ignorance is bliss for PD these days. They seriously need a wake up call.
 
I think PD went wrong by resting on their laurels after GT4 and failing to recognise the competition the racing sim market now provides. It seems ignorance is bliss for PD these days. They seriously need a wake up call.

I think it's not PD's fault. Probably it's Sony's fault, they simply want to make as much money as they can on GT series, with minimum effort. Minimum effort means, they have a lot of space for improvements = more GT games = more MONEY.

They made mistake, by showing us GT5P which has only premium cars, Kaz later said that "This level of quality is far beyond PS3 capabilities, it's more suited for PS4", and this is why we have Standard cars in GT5 and 6. MONEY...
 
a better balanced PP system
Just for my knowledge, what is bad with it, to you ?

Where did they go wrong?

I'm not sure where, but it has to do with claiming that there will be better AI.
Most other things, I think, can be forgiven. Or fixed.

Derpy AI probably can't.
I expected "Grid starts" as one of the things that improved AI would bring.


I feel like I bought this instead:

tomy-turbo-racing-80s.jpg
lol, I had this ! :)
 
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I think it's not PD's fault. Probably it's Sony's fault, they simply want to make as much money as they can on GT series, with minimum effort. Minimum effort means, they have a lot of space for improvements = more GT games = more MONEY.

They made mistake, by showing us GT5P which has only premium cars, Kaz later said that "This level of quality is far beyond PS3 capabilities, it's more suited for PS4", and this is why we have Standard cars in GT5 and 6. MONEY...
If that's the case, Kaz has been lying to us for years. All this stuff about his vision and passion was all a ploy to make us see him in a different light than other devs. To make him seem like a car guy, like one of us.
This is why I disagree, partially, SONY is to blame.
 
Just for my knowledge, what is bad with it, to you ?

It's completely illogical.

Huayra '11 - 613 PP
SLS AMG GT3 '11 - 610 PP <- it's a god damn race car.

Aventador - 583 PP
Racing Kart 125 Shifter - 582 PP

Viper SRT ACR - 580 PP
Lister Storm V12 Race Car - 580 PP

Corvette ZR1 '09 - 574 PP
Honda HSV-010 GT Base Model '12 - 573 PP

How does that even work? It's not usual that I see road cars pulling times similar to race cars from their PP range.
 
A GT game with such complex physics and 30fps would be kinda... unplayable.

As unplayable as GT6 dropping into the 20's for FPS? Whether or not GT6's physics are "complex" is entirely up for debate too, but I know of at least one other game on the same generation of consoles that does 60fps just fine. The physics calculations aren't the likely reason for GT6's terribad framerate anyways - it's Kaz and co pushing the graphical aspects too far for the PS3's capabilities. Just like every other game that's been released for any home console, there needs to be compromises in the game design - 60fps certainly is not an impossibility. So again, I'll restate that yes, I'd prefer a locked 30fps rate than GT6's stuttering only-sometimes-60fps.
 
You've got this backwards. Forza is the one that gets cars right.

I think part of the problem here is the console mindset. Console games are design and sold with the idea that people will take what they get, and no one wants anything more than simple. This goes for most console games, Forza included, but PD takes it to an extreme. You don't really get many options with how to play. It can be extremely frustrating.

Another issue for me is that while PD says GT is a simulator, they don't seem interested in being more realistic. The physics are subpar for the genre in my opinion and there is little to know sign of the major physics overhaul promised with GT6.

One of the console racers really need to break away from the mold and improve the genre. It wouldn't be difficult to do, but for some reason no one seems willing.


Removing options is bad. PP is a requirement for a game of this type though.


This may say a lot. Was it done to cater to the idea that players don't want a "hardcore" race? Maybe then, maybe you could justify taking the 24 hr races from A-Spec. But why not put them somewhere else for the other players? Why is making both sides happy so hard?
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Have you driven any of the cars in real life that are in both Forza and GT? Well I have, and I can confirm that GT's cars handle and feel much more like they're real life counterparts. All the FR cars in Forza just slide because they can and Supercars are the easiest things in the world to drive. They aren't.

And subpar physics engine? Are you being serious right now? Compared to 5 and Forza, the physics engine alone makes GT6 worth buying. Cars have actual body roll now and tuning actually works for your own setup like say a real car. And what's not realistic about an accurate star map and a lighting engine that actually has some people confuse the game for reality? Say whatever you want, but I'd play GT in a heartbeat.
 
So again, I'll restate that yes, I'd prefer a locked 30fps rate than GT6's stuttering only-sometimes-60fps.

I would rather take a slight graphical hit than lose 60fps, I think 60fps is much more important personally, it makes a world of difference.

All games I have on my PC I run at 60fps and adjust the graphics to steady the frame rate, rather than make things a little prettier and 30fps.
 
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Have you driven any of the cars in real life that are in both Forza and GT? Well I have, and I can confirm that GT's cars handle and feel much more like they're real life counterparts. All the FR cars in Forza just slide because they can and Supercars are the easiest things in the world to drive. They aren't.

And subpar physics engine? Are you being serious right now? Compared to 5 and Forza, the physics engine alone makes GT6 worth buying. Cars have actual body roll now and tuning actually works for your own setup like say a real car. And what's not realistic about an accurate star map and a lighting engine that actually has some people confuse the game for reality? Say whatever you want, but I'd play GT in a heartbeat.
Body roll isn't a new thing in GT6. It was there on the PS2 if I recall. There were promotional clips for gt3 or 4. also slo-mo, that also focused on body roll.
But, let's not be fooled that visual body roll actually means it has anything to do with physics.

As for cars feeling like the real thing in GT6, that's debatable. Yes, I agree, forza5 is just silly with the tail happy antics but I also think they did it on purpose because they want it to be fun and they want to convey the tail happy nature of super cars, even if that means your fiesta will hang its ass out. GT6 on the other hand still thinks it's a serious sim racer and went for realism which they haven't fully nailed.
One reason for that in my opinion is that the aids and controls built into the game are still aimed at the dualshock controller. Maybe it's me but I find it almost impossible to catch a slide with opposite lock in order to save the car from spinning out. This should not be the case with a stock 240sx doing 50 mph. Also camber is borked, MR cars are questionably borked. Various updates and hidden updates keep tweaking physics at will.
 
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I don't think you know what you're talking about. Have you driven any of the cars in real life that are in both Forza and GT? Well I have, and I can confirm that GT's cars handle and feel much more like they're real life counterparts. All the FR cars in Forza just slide because they can and Supercars are the easiest things in the world to drive. They aren't.

Firstly you said that you can confirm that GT6 is more accurate, but you only said that you've driven cars in both games. That doesn't confirm much by itself. I also have to ask which Forza you've played. Horizon is very different from FM, it drives more like FM3 than 4 or 5, and that seems to be intentional.

I haven't compared real cars to GT6/Forza counterparts, I've only done comparisons of each games physics engines informally. I don't consider either good enough to even compare to a specific car, and I think a good test of the physics would focus on general physics behavior rather than seeing if car A acts exactly like car A.

Things I've noticed:

GT
-overly simple tire model: this has a huge effect on physics and car accuracy
-dead suspension: weight transfer is barely present, combined with the tires it makes for an on rails driving feel
-narrow range of attitudes for valid aerodynamics coefficients: Your rear wing will still work fine and cause understeer even if you're basically sideways. GT may not consider pitch/roll/yaw at all when it comes to aero forces
-point body behavior: The car sometimes feels like it's a single, compact mass, especially noticeable when accelerating from a standstill (torque steer) or braking hard.
-Excellent force feedback: This is really all I can give GT. The information through the wheel is very helpful

Forza
-Tire model: More diverse behavior across pretty much all driving conditions, and the grip level is not hardcoded for each tire (they may be doing something like GT yet, it's just more elaborate)
-Clear suspension model: Weight transfer is far more noticeable, though I think it may still be dumbed down to a degree as you can make drastic changes to suspension and only suffer moderately. Suspension tuning in GT5 felt like it did nothing. I have not been able to try GT6 tuning.
-Aero: It doesn't feel like GT's, when the car is in an odd position, I don't feel the aero. Hard to say things specifically since aero data is hard to measure from either game.
-Full car model: The car feels like a car. I felt like adding this point mostly because of my experience with brakes in FM5. I actually didn't feel as if I could just hold brakes at maximum and take my hands off the controller, the grip on the front tires was not always even. FM4 and all GT felt pretty dull on the brakes.

As for FR cars sliding in Forza, I can't relate. Definitely a non issue in FM4. GT5 on the other hand seems to have some really odd issue with grip for specific cars. The Speed 12 and Saleen S7 are my favorite examples of GT's buttered tire cars. The rear wheels simple can't take any force. I can't think of any similar example in Forza. FM4 had cars that just had low traction (like the Z4 GT3 car and SLK55 AMG), but they didn't feel like they were on ice. FM5 has made the edge of grip more dangerous and I did find the cars harder to control, but I think part of that was down to very bad non linear steering put into the controller. The 2013 Viper required a mild amount of attention to drive. The Ferrari F12 I could drive with one hand. The Audi R18 was disappointingly dull, much more fun in FM4 where it could more easily overpower the rear tires. The Indy cars were great as they had enough power to send the cars off the track and you needed to pay attention with them, but even in that case understeer was more prevalent than oversteer.

Another great difference between GT and Forza comes from muscle cars. Generally heavy and soft, they were pretty floaty in Forza while in GT they felt exactly like modern cars but with more understeer. It's like GT has a generic chassis for everything. When it comes to race cars I'm sure that's partially true, the race cars in GT often won't have unique settings in the tuning screen (and in fact the range of suspension settings you get for something like a Land Rover were no different from a Miata). Forza had unique adjustments that seemed car dependent and the stock tire for each car was custom defined. GT doesn't even have a non generic tire.

And subpar physics engine? Are you being serious right now? Compared to 5 and Forza, the physics engine alone makes GT6 worth buying.
I'll say right now I don't think GT can directly compete with Forza when it comes to physics at the moment. 6 may be better than 5, but I didn't feel it. 6 kept the on rails feeling when I tried it. I do know that PD has made suspension improvements. That was felt in the GTA demo, but these improvements don't even let them catch up to FM4 in my experience. If you want to compare GT5 and GT6, just go back up to my list of GT features and maybe cross out the dead suspension.


Cars have actual body roll now and tuning actually works for your own setup like say a real car.
I can't speak for GT6 tuning. Body roll is better yes, but that doesn't automatically mean the physics engine is right.

And what's not realistic about an accurate star map and a lighting engine that actually has some people confuse the game for reality? Say whatever you want, but I'd play GT in a heartbeat.
Those are nice things, but they don't have anything to do with driving. I don't mind your preference, for some people GT is a better game. I just don't think it's a better simulator.

It's completely illogical.

Huayra '11 - 613 PP
SLS AMG GT3 '11 - 610 PP <- it's a god damn race car.
There is no rule that says race car > road car, especially if the tires get left out. I'm pretty sure the Zonda will outaccelerate it at high speed.


Viper SRT ACR - 580 PP
Lister Storm V12 Race Car - 580 PP
Is the Lister still grossly overweight? The Viper is making 5-10 times normal steer car downforce, and remember tires don't get factored in. The weird thing here though, in GT the Viper barely makes downforce.

Corvette ZR1 '09 - 574 PP
Honda HSV-010 GT Base Model '12 - 573 PP
This one I can't really explain, unlike the Zonda/SLS example, the HSV has a huge weight advantage.

How does that even work? It's not usual that I see road cars pulling times similar to race cars from their PP range.
It works because that's the formula. For a PP system to be functional, you need to mathematically capture the impact of a car design on track performance. This has its challenges and limitations. Specifically on limitations, a car's performance ranking will change with track. If you only have one PP number per car, there is a bit of arbitrariness. PD should give us more options to use along with PP to make cars even. If PP can be improved they should do that as well, but I think that's more long term than short.
 
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First off, I already explained earlier in the thread on my experiences in real cars and comparing them to GT and Forza. Anyways, a case in point for me is the AE86's behavior in the games, and since I have one as my daily driver I feel qualified here.

Real Life:
An AE86 irl doesn't feel like it's gonna go sideways all the time. When having a spirited drive, it's gonna grip most of the time no problem. AE86's only really break traction when you provoke it, namely when weight shifting and ripping the E-brake. If anything, because the engine's not very powerful it tends to understeer a bit, and after that understeer is when it is easy to provoke snap oversteer. And when sliding, the car needs to be clutch kicked a LOT if you wanna maintain the slide, since the car can't do power slides very well since it's...well not that powerful. A blast to drive.
GT:
A stock AE86 on comfort hard tires feels pretty close to that. It grips well and it handles sharply like it really would. You also tend to get that small understeer before big oversteer like reality. Plus once it gets into a slide, it's hard to maintain without clutch kicking, nice step there. But since there isn't a really good clutch system for driving on a wheel, it's a bit tougher to drift, but all the cars in GT's silly clutch system do this so it's as close as it's gonna get.
Forza:
Yeah this is the one where I screamed "BS". The car's 0-60 time was real and all that, but the car was too dang easy to slide, and once you got into it, it just sorta stayed that way unless you turned the wheel. It just felt wrong to me, it felt like the engine was way more powerful than it shoulda been. It's fun and all for the kids, I'm just taking it too personally because I have this car and I know what it's capable of, which is also annoying considering you can make all these impossible tunes out of the cars.

Forza's been sandbox racing to me. Take a car body and then you can do whatever the hell you want to it. There are limits irl and in gran turismo, which is what makes me feel like GT has the upper hand in realism. You can only do so much to a car, and then the rest of it comes down to how well you use that car you built on the track. In Forza you can just slap some grade Billion nitrous or whatever and take off and win. Granted Forza's AI isn't as easy as GT's are =P

That's my review on the AE86 there. GT just feels better to me, and it always will. I just think Forza's an expensive, well modeled mess.
 
I personally feel they should change the off road physics... the dirt and grass should not feel like a sand pit. Also why do you make cars automatically enable traction control the second you touch dirt or grass? There have been multiple times where a simple 1 tire off made me either plow into someone or the wall due to this traction control.. it doesn't allow you to even try to save a simple mistake.. also why would the grass and dirt slow you down so much? To avoid shortcuts? I do believe that was the main point of enabling penalties. Also this game was supposed to be built to be more suitable for drifters but yet we can't do a tire drop without tc kicking in. I personally feel that the automatic tc has basically ruined the game along with the fact that they released a half finished game... no track edito, promised social features, no random track selection in track vote, no shuffle races, and it would be nice if you can limit a room to street, production cars only.
 
As unplayable as GT6 dropping into the 20's for FPS? Whether or not GT6's physics are "complex" is entirely up for debate too, but I know of at least one other game on the same generation of consoles that does 60fps just fine. The physics calculations aren't the likely reason for GT6's terribad framerate anyways - it's Kaz and co pushing the graphical aspects too far for the PS3's capabilities. Just like every other game that's been released for any home console, there needs to be compromises in the game design - 60fps certainly is not an impossibility. So again, I'll restate that yes, I'd prefer a locked 30fps rate than GT6's stuttering only-sometimes-60fps.

Ho man how I love your post. I have been VERY vocal about GT5 shortcomings but the very one thing that really annoyed me enough o stop playing was its bad Framerate. Unacceptable.
And now G6 is...worse!!!! i couldn't even believe it! How dare they give us a game that fails o deliver 60fps so often and so hard?
if GT5 and 6 had a perfectly smooth 60fps framerate it would be such a better experience. Steady 30fps will always be better that unstable 60 (that almost never gets to 60).

But hey: they got the constellations right didn't they? God Kaz is such a joke...
 
As unplayable as GT6 dropping into the 20's for FPS? Whether or not GT6's physics are "complex" is entirely up for debate too, but I know of at least one other game on the same generation of consoles that does 60fps just fine. The physics calculations aren't the likely reason for GT6's terribad framerate anyways - it's Kaz and co pushing the graphical aspects too far for the PS3's capabilities. Just like every other game that's been released for any home console, there needs to be compromises in the game design - 60fps certainly is not an impossibility. So again, I'll restate that yes, I'd prefer a locked 30fps rate than GT6's stuttering only-sometimes-60fps.
For me 720p instead of 1080p is by far the better choice rather than 30FPS instead of 60.
 
Real Life:
An AE86 irl doesn't feel like it's gonna go sideways all the time. When having a spirited drive, it's gonna grip most of the time no problem. AE86's only really break traction when you provoke it, namely when weight shifting and ripping the E-brake. If anything, because the engine's not very powerful it tends to understeer a bit, and after that understeer is when it is easy to provoke snap oversteer. And when sliding, the car needs to be clutch kicked a LOT if you wanna maintain the slide, since the car can't do power slides very well since it's...well not that powerful. A blast to drive.
GT:
A stock AE86 on comfort hard tires feels pretty close to that. It grips well and it handles sharply like it really would. You also tend to get that small understeer before big oversteer like reality. Plus once it gets into a slide, it's hard to maintain without clutch kicking, nice step there. But since there isn't a really good clutch system for driving on a wheel, it's a bit tougher to drift, but all the cars in GT's silly clutch system do this so it's as close as it's gonna get.
Forza:
Yeah this is the one where I screamed "BS". The car's 0-60 time was real and all that, but the car was too dang easy to slide, and once you got into it, it just sorta stayed that way unless you turned the wheel. It just felt wrong to me, it felt like the engine was way more powerful than it shoulda been. It's fun and all for the kids, I'm just taking it too personally because I have this car and I know what it's capable of, which is also annoying considering you can make all these impossible tunes out of the cars.

Fair enough. I guess by slide you mean just skid off the run as if there was no grip. I can't say this is how the car acted in Forza at all from my perspective, but that doesn't necessarily mean we disagree. By coincidence the AE86 is a car that has come up in a GT/Forza debate before and I actually ended up testing it



I don't recall any unwanted sliding at all. The video above was a successful recreation of someone's real life technique that they claimed could be used to drift the car.

Forza's been sandbox racing to me. Take a car body and then you can do whatever the hell you want to it. There are limits irl and in gran turismo, which is what makes me feel like GT has the upper hand in realism. You can only do so much to a car, and then the rest of it comes down to how well you use that car you built on the track. In Forza you can just slap some grade Billion nitrous or whatever and take off and win. Granted Forza's AI isn't as easy as GT's are =P
There are limits in real life. Neither game hits them, or even comes close. Forza certainly has tuning limits as I was upset to find it's impossible to make a R3 class 2013 Viper since the car simply can't be made fast enough. Lower end cars in Forza seem to be able to reach performance far beyond what GT lets you reach, but this seems to be accurate:





I can't find a video, but while out doing FSAE testing my team would often run into some crazy guy who turned a GMC truck and 50's land yacht of a Cadillac into track cars. Forza lets you do something pretty similar. GT is more limited.

Also poking fun with a bit of irony, you mention nitrous but only GT has N2O.
 
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Listen to that AE86! Awesome! Makes me want that car even if I'm not really into the JDM thing. Now go listen to it in GT6...

Forza 3 kind of sounded better though. The very little time I got to play it, I can tell the difference.
 
Just for my knowledge, what is bad with it, to you ?

I think it needs a serious overhaul, one that makes sense. We all agree that GT is better than FM in the physics department, thats a given. But FM has a deep and meaningful balanced Performance Index (PI, which is alot like GT's PP system).
In FM4 everything upgrade-able has PI, for example if you want wider wheels thats going to be more PI, a better transmission = more PI, tyres that are more grippy = more PI. FM4 has a far advanced and in depth customization along with a good balanced PI system which GT has been lacking in. When you upgrade anything on your car in real life you are actually increasing the performance, even if you're putting on wider or stickier tyres. That car can now go around a bend faster, thats why I mentioned a PP overhaul for a system that makes sense.
 
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Listen to that AE86! Awesome! Makes me want that car even if I'm not really into the JDM thing. Now go listen to it in GT6...

Forza 3 kind of sounded better though. The very little time I got to play it, I can tell the difference.
That's not a 4-AGE for one thing. It's wayyyy too shouty. 4-AGE's sound subtle at idle up until 4,000 rpm, then they get fierce. I dunno I think GT at least got the 4-AGE's noise right.

This is what a real 4-AGE sounds like:
[youtube]
The Shigeno AE86 nailed it on this one. Even though this one's got the 4 barrel throttle mod like the Shigeno one but yeah.
 
Fair enough. I guess by slide you mean just skid off the run as if there was no grip. I can't say this is how the car acted in Forza at all from my perspective, but that doesn't necessarily mean we disagree. By coincidence the AE86 is a car that has come up in a GT/Forza debate before and I actually ended up testing it



I don't recall any unwanted sliding at all. The video above was a successful recreation of someone's real life technique that they claimed could be used to drift the car.


There are limits in real life. Neither game hits them, or even comes close. Forza certainly has tuning limits as I was upset to find it's impossible to make a R3 class 2013 Viper since the car simply can't be made fast enough. Lower end cars in Forza seem to be able to reach performance far beyond what GT lets you reach, but this seems to be accurate:



I can't find a video, but will out doing FSAE testing my team would often run into some crazy guy who turned a GMC truck and 50's land yacht or a Cadillac into track cars. Forza lets you do something pretty similar. GT is more limited.

Also poking fun with a bit of irony, you mention nitrous but only GT has N2O.

I haven't really tuned in forza lol. My bad on that one dude =P

But yeah on the tuning thing I'm sure there are limits too in Forza but it seems kinda wierd that a D class car can shoot up to R3 or whatever(a friend of mine's an avid forza lover).

Also I found that interesting how the guy who set up his car came close to spinning out. Oh well, you have your view and I have mine. Forza's cool and all but I'm just a GT man :)
 
Forza's cool and all but I'm just a GT man :)

Nothing wrong with that. GT has its moments. While I'm not so convinced with the physics, the track editor is a start on a nice feature. If they ever get the GPS thing added, that would be great. I love the X1 car concept, and day/night and weather cycles are nice to have.

If there was a perfect racing game, I think it might take the menus and menu music from GT1, even if it's just for nostalgia.
 
Nothing wrong with that. GT has its moments. While I'm not so convinced with the physics, the track editor is a start on a nice feature. If they ever get the GPS thing added, that would be great. I love the X1 car concept, and day/night and weather cycles are nice to have.

If there was a perfect racing game, I think it might take the menus and menu music from GT1, even if it's just for nostalgia.
funny that, I was just playing GT1! Love the TVR dealer music, but I like 2 a lot more. Even if the second you turn the wheel you usually spin out in cars like the Supra XD Oh well. Good games, different styles. It's all on preference I guess and hopefully soon PD's gonna get itself out of the gutter with all the content we're supposed to have in GT6.
 
It's completely illogical.

Huayra '11 - 613 PP
SLS AMG GT3 '11 - 610 PP <- it's a god damn race car.

Aventador - 583 PP
Racing Kart 125 Shifter - 582 PP

Viper SRT ACR - 580 PP
Lister Storm V12 Race Car - 580 PP

Corvette ZR1 '09 - 574 PP
Honda HSV-010 GT Base Model '12 - 573 PP

How does that even work? It's not usual that I see road cars pulling times similar to race cars from their PP range.

Guys, PP is mainly a Horsepower/weight formula, the above examples of equivalence look at the HP divided by weight to compare.
 

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