Which nascar is the best?

[BrutherSuperior]

Yup that's the one.

Regardless of where he was born, American motorsport is where he made his name before bluffing his way into F1. His mid-season side-lining in McLaren in an utterly embarrassing scenario for both team and him was the pinnacle of his career.

As Ross Braun said,

"He's not a very classy driver"

... and Ross was right; he's not. He represents the pinnacle of American motorsport the world over. Those who were good enough to win American series but were an utter failure when matched against the best in the world.

I think you have your BMW Williams drivers mixed up.

[Ralf is who you're thinking of]

 

[objp]

This slightly bothers me aswell. For exaple, they only have one car from Rousch Racing which is Carl Edwards. So why couldn't they add other Rousch cars such as Matt Kenseth. They also could have put Mark Martin in the game considering they have the other three Hendrick drivers.It's not as if it would have been difficult to add more cars either, its simply just changing the liveries.

Money, simple as that.

You have to get permission to use the driver's likeness and the car. That permission costs money.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

So I guess you feel the same about Alex Zanardi, who had an abysmal F1 career but dominated in Champ Car? Or is he different because he was a crowd favourite? What about Jacques Villeneuve who won the CART championship, then went on to F1 and won the WDC too?

I certainly think Zanardi was as bad, maybe even worse with his insistence that he couldn't deal with the carbon fibre brakes in F1 and actually ran many races using the terribly inefficient steel brakes that he was able to control; despite them being far slower.

Villeneuve was a terrible driver as well. Certainly a benefactor of being in the right place at the right time and being in the vastly superior Williams that let Hill win the title the year before. Both of whom were amongst the worst drivers to win the F1 world championship

It's amusing to try to present an argument as if I wasn't there when it happened.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think you have your BMW Williams drivers mixed up.

[Ralf is who you're thinking of]

'fraid not

"Juan Pablo Montoya may have been labelled a madman for punting Michael Schumacher off the track at the European Grand Prix, but he has blown the battle for the World Championship wide open.

The Colombian proved once again that he will not shirk a confrontation with the Ferrari driver as he sent Schumacher sliding out of control in front of his fellow Germans at the Nurburgring yesterday."

"Montoya's overtaking move, with 17 circuits of the 60-lap race left, snatched second place but infuriated Ferrari's Manchester-born technical director Ross Brawn.


"It was mad of Montoya," said Brawn. "He could have taken both of them off the circuit. It was a very crude overtaking move and he has done it several times before. He is not a classy driver in that respect."

I was there, and my memory is pretty good.

http://www.lep.co.uk/sport/football/mad_move_keeps_grid_title_race_up_for_grabs_1_96379

Montoya = Idiot

 

[slicecom]

I certainly think Zanardi was as bad, maybe even worse with his insistence that he couldn't deal with the carbon fibre brakes in F1 and actually ran many races using the terribly inefficient steel brakes that he was able to control; despite them being far slower.

Villeneuve was a terrible driver as well. Certainly a benefactor of being in the right place at the right time and being in the vastly superior Williams that let Hill win the title the year before. Both of whom were amongst the worst drivers to win the F1 world championship

It's amusing to try to present an argument as if I wasn't there when it happened.

Oh ok that makes sense. JV was a terrible driver who won the Indy 500 (back when it still meant something), CART Championship and the F1 World Drivers Championship, and Montoya can't drive, yet he wins in basically any car he gets into be it F3000, CART, F1, Daytona Prototypes, or NASCAR.

You must be an incredible driver yourself. How many WDC titles have you won?

 

[RedBull_2_M3RK]

Brian Vickers #83 did the job for me!
And I bought that before completing the NASCAR school, I got JPM #42 After that >.<

I agree vickers has 864 hp faster than jp an all others i own. I own 5 nascars

 

[Kreepnslayer]

Yup that's the one.

Regardless of where he was born, American motorsport is where he made his name before bluffing his way into F1. His mid-season side-lining in McLaren in an utterly embarrassing scenario for both team and him was the pinnacle of his career.

As Ross Braun said,

"He's not a very classy driver"

... and Ross was right; he's not. He represents the pinnacle of American motorsport the world over. Those who were good enough to win American series but were an utter failure when matched against the best in the world.

What's strange too is that the guys that come from open wheel into NASCAR often don't do well at all.
Even driving around in a circle ( and road courses twice a year) proves challenging to many people.

 

[Stradivis]

This thread is very humorous in that I am seeing references to NASCAR as though it was a car model.

I'll call them Nascars as I called the Toyota Minolta.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Oh ok that makes sense. JV was a terrible driver who won the Indy 500 (back when it still meant something), CART Championship and the F1 World Drivers Championship, and Montoya can't drive, yet he wins in basically any car he gets into be it F3000, CART, F1, Daytona Prototypes, or NASCAR.

You must be an incredible driver yourself. How many WDC titles have you won?

Villeneuve won the Indy 500 and CART... who cares... it's an American series that the rest of the world avoids. He might as well have won the world head-or-tails tournament. His F1 title is what it is.....

Montoya; F3000, "CART" (wow.. how impressive sarcasm, "winning" in F1 probably means something in America than it doesn't in the rest of the world so I'll excuse you on that one if you think he "won". "Daytona prototypes" and "NASCAR".... Hmm... that's really impressive. Being able to remember to not turn the wheel to the right is impressive, against a limited field of competitors.

I'll congratulate you on questioning my trophy cabinet, that's a very original move to back up your point when it's floundering.

They always say that attack is the best form of defence, and when talking about the pedigree of American drivers in an international sense; defence is probably the best stance to adopt.

 

[Vanon]

You must be an incredible driver yourself. How many WDC titles have you won?

Yeah I'd like to know that too...

 

[RustyNut]

'fraid not

"Juan Pablo Montoya may have been labelled a madman for punting Michael Schumacher off the track at the European Grand Prix, but he has blown the battle for the World Championship wide open.

The Colombian proved once again that he will not shirk a confrontation with the Ferrari driver as he sent Schumacher sliding out of control in front of his fellow Germans at the Nurburgring yesterday."

"Montoya's overtaking move, with 17 circuits of the 60-lap race left, snatched second place but infuriated Ferrari's Manchester-born technical director Ross Brawn.


"It was mad of Montoya," said Brawn. "He could have taken both of them off the circuit. It was a very crude overtaking move and he has done it several times before. He is not a classy driver in that respect."

I was there, and my memory is pretty good.

http://www.lep.co.uk/sport/football/mad_move_keeps_grid_title_race_up_for_grabs_1_96379

Montoya = Idiot

Fair enough when you state it like that.

What's frustrating is when European elitists such as yourself find one example of an ahole American driver and then lump all "American idiots" into that category. I find nationalism/xenophobia to be repugnant, we're all individuals on this earth, some people are jerks sure,while most people are good. Check your biases at the door, I as an American, don't have the patience for it.

 

[slicecom]

Villeneuve won the Indy 500 and CART... who cares... it's an American series that the rest of the world avoids. He might as well have won the world head-or-tails tournament. His F1 title is what it is.....

Montoya; F3000, "CART" (wow.. how impressive sarcasm, "winning" in F1 probably means something in America than it doesn't in the rest of the world so I'll excuse you on that one if you think he "won". "Daytona prototypes" and "NASCAR".... Hmm... that's really impressive. Being able to remember to not turn the wheel to the right is impressive, against a limited field of competitors.

I'll congratulate you on questioning my trophy cabinet, that's a very original move to back up your point when it's floundering.

They always say that attack is the best form of defence, and when talking about the pedigree of American drivers in an international sense; defence is probably the best stance to adopt.

I'm not American, neither is JV, and F1 is by far my favourite racing series. I just don't believe the American racing series are as pathetic as you do. That's understandable though as many from outside the USA (Canadians included) have an inferiority complex and constantly try to belittle the things they take pleasure in. I don't like NASCAR, but I don't think Schumacher could go to the USA and be competitive in NASCAR either.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Fair enough when you state it like that.

What's frustrating is when European elitists such as yourself find one example of an ahole American driver and then lump all "American idiots" into that category. I find nationalism/xenophobia to be repugnant, we're all individuals on this earth, some people are jerks sure,while most people are good. Check your biases at the door, I as an American, don't have the patience for it.

It's not a case of an inherent bias against American drivers. Label me as Xenophobic if you like (it certainly makes it easier doesn't it). When an American driver comes to a European Formula and proves himself against the best in the world (and not just in a minority series that only attracts Americans due to it's nature) then I'll give him the plaudits that he deserves.

Zanardi failed
Montoya failed
Speed failed
Villeneuve won... terrible driver though

There's this weird polarity between world motor-sport and American motorsport; although there's no doubt which is the more legitimate test of a driver's ability, regardless of the category.

 

[TK42OnE]

Yup I'd go for Montoya's.

If his NASCAR is anything like the F1 cars he drove it'll have the special ability of being able to crash into everyone and get away without damage.

Yet another idiot from American "motorsport" who found out he wasn't quite as hot as he had been led to believe.

Fair enough when you state it like that.

What's frustrating is when European elitists such as yourself find one example of an ahole American driver and then lump all "American idiots" into that category. I find nationalism/xenophobia to be repugnant, we're all individuals on this earth, some people are jerks sure,while most people are good. Check your biases at the door, I as an American, don't have the patience for
it.

Don't let the dr bother you. I've noticed in my short time here that a odd type of insecurity, or inferiority, complex is an issue with some European GTP contributors from time to time... Especially when NASCAR is discussed.

Best to ignore it and stick to the topic at hand.

The answer to which is, none, technically they are all the same. But, are the Toyotas really cheaper? I don't remember seeing that.

 

[Kreepnslayer]

Villeneuve won the Indy 500 and CART... who cares... it's an American series that the rest of the world avoids. He might as well have won the world head-or-tails tournament. His F1 title is what it is.....

Montoya; F3000, "CART" (wow.. how impressive sarcasm, "winning" in F1 probably means something in America than it doesn't in the rest of the world so I'll excuse you on that one if you think he "won". "Daytona prototypes" and "NASCAR".... Hmm... that's really impressive. Being able to remember to not turn the wheel to the right is impressive, against a limited field of competitors.

I'll congratulate you on questioning my trophy cabinet, that's a very original move to back up your point when it's floundering.

They always say that attack is the best form of defence, and when talking about the pedigree of American drivers in an international sense; defence is probably the best stance to adopt.

Wow. Did a NASCAR driver break up your mom and dads marriage or something?
Or maybe an American race driver stole your bike or something.
Either way, why so bitter towards American mororsports?
You make it sound as if winning in F1 is no big deal. Maybe it's just because I'm a silly American myself, but I bet anyone that has ever won in F1 would agree that each one was special and meant something.
Lol. A heads or tails tournament? Riiiight.
And you're right. F1 championships are a dime a dozen. They hand those things out to anyone. I'm thinking of picking one up myself.

 

[Vanon]

Villeneuve won the Indy 500 and CART... who cares... it's an American series that the rest of the world avoids. He might as well have won the world head-or-tails tournament. His F1 title is what it is.....

Why? OK as an european (or well maybe italian) I never liked nascar but this doesn't mean that the only racing competition that matters is F!.... at all.... I loved the last championship but c'mon... team orders? espionage between the teams? F1 is not so noble as it seems imho.... always preferred rally or the wonderful FIA GT Championship (gt1 especially)

 

[slicecom]

Don't let the dr bother you. I've noticed in my short time here that a odd type of insecurity, or inferiority, complex is an issue with some European GTP contributors from time to time... Especially when NASCAR is discussed.

Funny how we both individually came to the same conclusion (re: inferiority complex).

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I'm not American, neither is JV, and F1 is by far my favourite racing series. I just don't believe the American racing series are as pathetic as you do. That's understandable though as many from outside the USA (Canadians included) have an inferiority complex and constantly try to belittle the things they take pleasure in. I don't like NASCAR, but I don't think Schumacher could go to the USA and be competitive in NASCAR either.

I've no need to belittle anyone's motorsport pedigree. European motorsport is undeniably the highest level at which anyone can compete in any meaningful series. That is truly a series that is open to anyone and where drivers the world-over aspire to be.

As for the technicality that you and Villeneuve are Canadian, it's irrelevant. He's a product of American motorsport with it's incredibly insular view and limited series.

The nationality of people driving NASCARS or KARTS of whatever silly fomula they are competing in is irrelevant, the whole point is that they are competing in a series that is pretending to be the pinnacle to motorsport the world over; and it just isn't. Not by a long shot.

 

[Tommy_861]

Yup that's the one.

Regardless of where he was born, American motorsport is where he made his name before bluffing his way into F1. His mid-season side-lining in McLaren in an utterly embarrassing scenario for both team and him was the pinnacle of his career.

As Ross Braun said,

"He's not a very classy driver"

... and Ross was right; he's not. He represents the pinnacle of American motorsport the world over. Those who were good enough to win American series but were an utter failure when matched against the best in the world.

Utter failure? 7 wins and 13 poles during the exact time that Schumacher and Ferrari completely dominated the sport to the point it was almost a joke.

I'd hate to hear what you would call Jochen Rindt, he was a WDC and only had 6 wins to his 7 year F1 career.

I will admit JPM is a hot head and has some personality issues. But the guy has talent, too bad his personality problems got int he way of his driving too much. BTW McLaren side-lined him only after he announced his intentions, otherwise he would have finished out the season. I'd say his personality and style didn't lend well to the world of Formula 1, where brute force of driving can't overcome big mistakes in qualifying or the race.

 

[Kreepnslayer]

I've no need to belittle anyone's motorsport pedigree. European motorsport is undeniably the highest level at which anyone can compete in any meaningful series. That is truly a series that is open to anyone and where drivers the world-over aspire to be.

As for the technicality that you and Villeneuve are Canadian, it's irrelevant. He's a product of American motorsport with it's incredibly insular view and limited series.

The nationality of people driving NASCARS or KARTS of whatever silly fomula they are competing in is irrelevant, the whole point is that they are competing in a series that is pretending to be the pinnacle to motorsport the world over; and it just isn't. Not by a long shot.

Wow.
👎

 

[RustyNut]

It's not a case of an inherent bias against American drivers. Label me as Xenophobic if you like (it certainly makes it easier doesn't it).

Sure does make it easier, just like it's easier for you to take a few examples of American drivers and make a large sweeping conclusions from them. It's obvious that you believe you're superior the way to talk about Americans, you're probably not xenophobic so I retract that but you certainly are nationalistic or in the very least, Eurocentric.

Get over it, we're all individuals with differing customs and languages but individuals none-the-less.

 

[Sphinx]

Best to ignore it and stick to the topic at hand.

Amen.

DrTrouserPlank,
I'm getting tired of your flame baiting. Way to go posting your tripe in a NASCAR topic. If you can't post on topic, don't post at all.

Also, I believe that you've been here long enough to know not to double post.

 

[skywolf23]

Heh i love formula 1 for the drama, and the tech race, and the goofy years where every team seems to have a shot and the big guys fail hard. I love the team orders fiasco it was lol funny because it was so blatant, and hey i am a ferrari guy.

But then the end of the season comes and everyone is shocked and dismayed that red bull gave no orders and is just letting it's drivers race. Like it would have been ok if red bull had done it behind closed doors, but then they kept bugging the drivers about it.

NASCAR is not my cup of tea, granted it takes a certain amount of skill, but watching cars go around in a circle for hours on end i find as boring as watching paint dry no matter how much skill is involved in using exactly equal cars and pure driver skill drafting, defending etc to win races.

But we have other race series over in the states, just because nascar is the most popular, well who am i to judge, but we do have other series over here.

CART was not that bad, it was a mini f1 after all and they had some exciting races before the whole break up came about and split the best drivers and teams.

Thing that dogs us is we never had any drivers go over seas and do much of anything in recent years. Any american stepping foot into formula 1 has been a disaster. Really hope our nation produces one driver in the coming century that can go over there and win races. ;p

 

[stig's helmet]

This thread has been epicly hijacked and been has turned into a 'who hates and who loves nascar' thread.
Personally it's not my thing but we'll leave that to another thread...
On topic...thought they were all the same.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

OK Sphinx

I've wiped this response because it was being typed as you posted, and in response to that I have deleted it.

I accept that I'm off-topic and won't post anymore in here.

 

[MatskiMonk]

the whole point is that they are competing in a series that is pretending to be the pinnacle to motorsport the world over; and it just isn't. Not by a long shot.

Lol, I read that and assumed you were talking about F1..

Seriously though,...

haters gonna hate!

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

I have to say O disagree with your view on other continiets(SP) racing I prefer japaneses jgct to british touring cars nascar over wtcc and other brillant non-european race series such as grand am. australian supercars, american drift series japanese drift series, indy car. and these race series all require a high amount of skill.

EDIT just seen mods post please ignore.

 

[slicecom]

I've no need to belittle anyone's motorsport pedigree. European motorsport is undeniably the highest level at which anyone can compete in any meaningful series. That is truly a series that is open to anyone and where drivers the world-over aspire to be.

As for the technicality that you and Villeneuve are Canadian, it's irrelevant. He's a product of American motorsport with it's incredibly insular view and limited series.

The nationality of people driving NASCARS or KARTS of whatever silly fomula they are competing in is irrelevant, the whole point is that they are competing in a series that is pretending to be the pinnacle to motorsport the world over; and it just isn't. Not by a long shot.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I greatly prefer European motorsport to any other, and watch F1 religiously (I've watched every P2, Quali and Race LIVE for the past decade, and thats saying something when you're on this side of the planet as the races are rarely at a decent time).

I don't think anyone in Indycar nor NASCAR is kidding themselves anymore about being a world class motorsport. Indycar is in recovery mode and trying to rebuild, moving away from being a spec series etc... but in the 90's CART cars were faster than F1 and the talent pool was immense. NASCAR will never be the pinnacle of motorsport, nor do they aspire to be.

I think you would be well served to lose the "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to motorsport and just enjoy it. There's some great drivers in NASCAR and some great drivers in Indycar.

F1's field is now over half made up of pay drivers, so it's kind of difficult to say that it's got the best of the best. Many great drivers were never given a shot in F1 because they didn't have the funds to back them up.

Personally, while F1 is my favorite series, I'd say you'll find the best drivers in the world in WRC rather than F1.

SEE EDIT NOTES

 

[KaosAngel]

...all the same bro. That's why they call them stock cars.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I greatly prefer European motorsport to any other, and watch F1 religiously (I've watched every P2, Quali and Race LIVE for the past decade, and thats saying something when you're on this side of the planet as the races are rarely at a decent time).

I don't think anyone in Indycar nor NASCAR is kidding themselves anymore about being a world class motorsport. Indycar is in recovery mode and trying to rebuild, moving away from being a spec series etc... but in the 90's CART cars were faster than F1 and the talent pool was immense. NASCAR will never be the pinnacle of motorsport, nor do they aspire to be.

I think you would be well served to lose the "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to motorsport and just enjoy it. There's some great drivers in NASCAR and some great drivers in Indycar.

F1's field is now over half made up of pay drivers, so it's kind of difficult to say that it's got the best of the best. Many great drivers were never given a shot in F1 because they didn't have the funds to back them up.

Personally, while F1 is my favorite series, I'd say you'll find the best drivers in the world in WRC rather than F1.

SEE EDIT NOTES

I agree with most of what you've said and concede that F1 seats are heavily dependent on who can bring what money to what team; but nonetheless, the talent always attracts the sponsorship and therefore the opportunity to drive for the best team to the best drivers.

The WRC is quite a step away from F1. Almost incomparable in terms of which drivers are better. Both are equally impressive, although the risks that rally drivers are exposed to make their bravery all the more applaudable.

Either way, I'm off to bed. Gonna get slated for the next 15 hours without retort so I'll just leave this thread alone now.