who can really achieve a perfect drift?

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Retard. I just said we weren't discussing drifting.
"Drifting," is a pointless but fun activity. Just another thing to get good at and use (if you like) to show off. Style in 'drifting' is okay.

This about employing a certain drift technique while racing to acheive a certian goal, be it faster exit speed, faster entry speed, or faster lap time in general. The best style in racing is no style at all. That is called,'form'. Same rule applies to martial arts. Style can be predictable and inefficient.

With the above diagram in mind, I created one with a little more relevance.

Below is a car with 100% 'balance'.
A drag racing car would be more of an oval with the furthest points apart being accel and braking and the narrower points apart being left and right turning.
Let's have a look..
 

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SF... there is no reason to be calling people retards...

there can be no such thing as over 100% traction... What happens when you exceed traction is a reduction in the wheels capabilities to cope with the forces that the wheels in contact with the ground extert. This happens not only because the traction forces have reached the maximum possible values, but also becuase after this point they decrease in value. In terms of your diagrams there is no difference between 101% and 105%. Both are within the class of exhibition drifting. The only difference will be how the tires loose grip (ie back or front first or which side) and thus the cars angle and general reaction may differ... This of course depends upon loading as well... My main point is that what you described are not different in a general sense... While you can go out of the grip circle it certainly isn't the same as adding up percents of traction used... that is just a convienient way of thinking of it...

The perfect drift is almost the same thing as driving at maximum grip in my mind. The perfect drift is 4 wheel drift where you are right on the border of breaking traction (ie exceeding the maximum amount of force you car can handle at a given moment in a turn)... The reason it is not grip remains becuase slip angle, ever so slight, persist. These slip angles exist becuase just like we dont know why breaks sqeak under hard loading even when they are new, we do not completely understand the theoretical point where maximum traction is obtained and at the same time traction decreases in value... While we understand that before this point grip is being performed and that after this point drift is occuring... we do not know the mathematics that govern the theoretical point...which is why we cannot explain in a physical sense why at maximum useable grip slip occurs...
 
I have beaten all the beginner, and amature races while drifting. It's all just a matter of getting enough power, so you are well matched, and fitting the best tires, depending on the power, and course. If you adjust the settings, and change the power, for each course, it's not that hard............;)
 
Instead of us arguing about what is the perfect drift or four wheel drift, how about someone makes a video of it.. eh?
 
Originally posted by Bill-182
Give me this weekend and I can try to put together a video in relation to the "perfect drift" and what it is, and how to achieve it.

But to hold you off look at these figures I drew up.

Each figure should explain itself, but the basics of a "perfect drift" is taking a corner where you are just on the edge of your grip circle. Now, most cars this circle cannot even be a circle at all, I'm sure NASCAR since they go fast and turn left have more of an oval on their side, where as a IHRA drag car will have a tall oval. And then an F1 car just has the biggest circle of all.

Also, your tires get the most grip when they are slightly in slip...

Like I said, give me until the weekend, as I have mid-terms in my classes, but once those are out of the way I can work on a video.
Click to expand...
he is makin as vid
 
Originally posted by Ryen49
haha having a bad day brock?
Click to expand...

No.
Some people just don't know the reason why they are posting.
Hence the name calling.

The thing with driving is knowing what you want to happen.
A four wheel drift isn't really a skill that can magically give you faster lap times if used on every corner.

It's more of a racing technique used to achieve certain things that result in your favor, should there be other cars in positions that affect your ideal line.

Let's take Initial-D for example, just to make things a little more appealing.

Two cars are driving towards a medium left turn parallel to eachother. Takumi and Ryosuke let's say. Ryosuke is on the inside line so he brakes heavily before the turn whereas Takumi brakes later and powers through the turn in a four wheel drift, effectively slowing the car, but he has his foot on the accelerator at the same time. The thing is, although the were beside eachother, Takumi's entry speed was higher so he apexes where Ryosuke apexes, except sooner. The both exit the corner wide (at the other side of the road), but Takumi is now in front of Ryosuke.

I just made this up as an example, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW I really don't like that show. It suggests that showy high angle drifting is faster than grip...
 
Thats exactly right and shows the reason why a 4 wheel drift isnt really for faster lap times it depends on the situation.
 
Sorry bengee, you're right. There isn't really a difference between 101% and 105%. I was just using that as an example of the way to tell when your tires are right on the limit of traction, because below 100% there should be no sound.

I am starting to understand what silvia_drifter (I think it was sil, maybe it was battle_stage) said a while ago about static and kinetic friction.

The friction circle represents the maximum magnitude of static friction acting on the tires. If that magnitude is exceeded through some circumstance such as accelerating too hard while steering, static friction changes to kinetic friction, which acts against the tires, thus slowing the car. So it is mathmatically impossible to drift faster than grip.
 
Again, this is something I have determined under my own intuition, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I will take it in a professional sense and appreciate the correct knowledge.

Edit: Just checked how many posts I had in relation to this recent post whoring. 555 posts woo evil
ctrigger01.gif
 

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LOL SF that was me...

ok with your new graph... the inside is static friction... as the load on the tire increases the value of the coeff of friction increases in a linear manner... at the edge of the circle the maximum value of friction is reached... if one exceeds the maximum amount of force that can be applied to a tire without breaking traction... you are outside of the circle... here the value of the coeff of friction is much lower... and wheels slip and make noise and smoke...

At or about the circle's border the maximum amount of grip is obtained and the fastest speeds can be obtained... This is four wheel drift... not to be confused with exhibition drift. no smoke should be seen from the tires during this time... but sound may be heard...
 
The outside rim of the circle represents maximum potential magnitude of of static friction acting on the tires.

Ok.

Yes, that second part about kinetic friction makes sense, because unless there is a constant force acting on the tires to keep the car's traction in the kinetic or 'slipping' zone, the kinetic friction will resist and in turn reduce the force acting on the car's tires until they grip again.

Right?

Edit: Right. Sorry to repeat, but your post changed while I was typing this :O
 
Originally posted by Street Fighter
unless there is a constant force acting on the tires to keep the car's traction in the kinetic or 'slipping' zone, the kinetic friction will resist and in turn reduce the force acting on the car's tires until they grip again.
Click to expand...

The force acting on the tires is inertia, the weight of the car itself. As long as there is enough inertia on the lateral plane (side-to-side) the car will continue to slide. You can increase inertia in certain directions by transfering weight to the appropriate corners of the car. The 'perfect drift' so to speak, occurs when weight is transferred such that all four tires are at the maximum point of traction. This cannot happen in grip driving because there is more force on the outside tires. Therefore, using slight slip angles -without- breaking static friction allows you to gain extra traction that grip drivers cannot use. Unless you're racing NASCAR where they only turn one direction and tune accordingly =) On the other hand, if you exceed your maximum traction and revert to kinetic friction, you will lose traction and hence speed. As an added bonus, by using slight slip angles, all four wheels are pointing directly forward and there is no resistance to acceleration. Under conditions like this, all four tires would wear perfectly even. However, to consistently drive at this point would be quite a feat, which is why people don't attempt it in racing.
 
I wasn't aware you could drift without exceeding the car's maximum magnitude of static friction.

I also wasn't aware that NASCAR had anything to do with racing.
 
I don't know if this request is actually possible, but can anyone try to tell what they find is the optimum slip angle for a right handed 90 degree turn is? and if you can for a hairpin and 60 degree turns?

That would really help in finding the fastest speed people achieve when drifting.
 
that'll help me too but can you please try to get people to submit more theory and diagrams. I'm really interested in trying to get the most out of drifting
 
This is a really complicated and sensitive topic that can't be fully explain with MSPaint.

It gets even more complicated when cornering lines based on random situations and turbo spool up time in accordance to throttle are introduced, but these are only a fraction of the amount of potential variables.

We should leave this where it is before it gets to the point where fact and theory are mixed up with speculation, because the fact is, drifting in racing isn't employed to achieve the fastest lap time, but a faster lap time than your opponent by using it tactically.

My reading here is done.
 

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