Who needs GT5... ;-)
- Thread starter Dude27
- 45 comments
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- 415
- GTP_infamousDee
The two games are incomparable. Need For Speed is an arcade racing game, and Gran Turismo is a driving simulator, not to mention one with a hell of lot more content. However, if we're discussing graphics...
- 676
- Toronto, CAN
- Guynemer27
No it's not... I'm use to drive Iracing, LFS, GTR2 and to say that the PC NFS Shift With the overall physics mod is arcade is pure fanboyism...
plus, most of this video is post processed (not direct gameplay graphic involved)... PD is use to this sham (showing beautifully post processed videos instead of direct feed gameplay), since their first GT1...
plus, most of this video is post processed (not direct gameplay graphic involved)... PD is use to this sham (showing beautifully post processed videos instead of direct feed gameplay), since their first GT1...
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- 1,851
- GTP_karlos
I need it 
and fast!
and fast!
- 6,694
- Dallas, TX
@Dude27: If you are disrespecting "The" GT5, then why are you still on this site? 
- 2,114
- Porto-Portugal
- arvore
- FCP CAMPEÕES
@Dude27: If you are disrespecting "The" GT5, then why are you still on this site?
Freedom of speech?!
Although I "NEED" GT5,RIGHT NOW
Well, before this gets too out of hand
I've worked with matt on a few things for Shift, and 1.31 of Overhaul has some stuff of mine in it. So I hope that at least from the perspective of talking about the mod and Shift I can speak with some authority as to what's in it.
One thing to make perfectly clear to everyone - the classic "sim" vs "arcade" mix, these days, exists mostly in people's minds. You have some games these days (burnout, grid) where there is simply not that much physical modeling going on in the first place, which could perhaps fit the "arcade" template, but for anything that has some kind of serious attempt at physical modeling going on you are really talking about the default gameplay and design decisions rather than some kind of magical switch that exists in the game code to make it "sim" or "arcade". The impact of controller assists, default controller setups and default car setups is vastly more influential on people's perception of handling than any change in the mathematical modeling done in the game code.
Computers and consoles these days are powerful enough that there is simply not much benefit in faking anything - you don't really gain that much performance increase because a decent PMF and suspension model can be handed off to its own thread, whereas faking some charade of car handling requires a hell of a lot more design time and testing - and is also much less predictable and harder to test if you want any kind of radically different handling cars in there. So at a physical level, these days, you are more talking about a difference in rounding, and whether a specific feature is simulated, whether it measures inputs or uses terminal values, etc. The difference in which is usually very small and tends to happen around the edges of the model. Telling people that you are now 1% more accurate in the upper right hand corner of a specific envelope doesn't sell copies. Telling people that everything else is trash and that only your computer game is The Definitive Simulator Of All Time does.
In terms of Overhaul itself, for the physical modeling of the cars, you have several main classes of changes:
1) input changes - locking the steering lock control to match the degrees of steering wheel rotation present on the user's physical wheel, making the in-car wheel rotate to match the user's wheel, and accelerating input for people with input lag, changing some controller profiles, removing clutchtime and shiftdelay parameters for H shifter users.
2) default setup value changes - fixing steering lock as mentioned above, fixing brake bias (UI bug), changing the default differential preload to 0 rather than 60/80, fixing some cars with bad default ride height values
3) baseline physics value changes - reducing Pro mode grip by 20%, increasing Pro mode centre of gravity height by 15%, reducing the impact rates of certain surfaces from normal, reducing the loss of front wheel grip over curbs, adding loss of aero grip and rake parameters to cars missing them.
From the perspective of making a "real sim", category 3 is the most important, but contains the smallest changes (and half are inconsequential in the long run - tyre grip is changeable, CG height is changeable, by default in the actual game itself by altering setups), and have by far the least impact on handling. That's the kind of 1% around the edges change I'm talking about. It's almost unnoticeable unless you go out of your way to look for it or you're in the specific zone of influence of those settings. Category #1 is the least important for making a "real sim" but has by far the largest impact on how people perceive handling. Category #2 is pretty much in the middle in terms of perception and actual data changes that you couldn't do yourself.
In terms of the base engine and game data driving the physics engine, Shift is literally GTR2 with a new tyre and surface contact model, and some added drivetrain parameters to accommodate drifting. In that regard it's a significant improvement, having more surface types, with deeper modeling, done at a higher tickrate, using much more dynamic curves mathematically generated from base inputs, rather than fixed slip curves flipping between different states. It's slightly behind rFactor in terms of aero and drivetrain modeling, but still largely the same stuff, minus a few (~15 out of about 1000) values, using the same basic physics template.
The people who put this together know what they are doing in a serious, actually drive racecars, been making "proper" PC sims for over a decade since GPL and F1-99/02, kind of way. Some of the default values are set to a level to assist people on gamepads, and some are changed from what is mathematically suggested as the 'right' answer based on feedback from their actual race car driving testers. That's about the extent of what has been done to "dumb down" the sim - not actually all that much, in the grand scheme of things. This is absolutely no different from what you would see in any other game, and the same "serious" sims have been altered in precisely the same way for "driveability" and testing feedback reasons.
So basically, the point is - people are absolutely rubbish at working out what's going on under the hood. They have really no capacity to work out, at a technical level, whether sim A is more advanced than sim B at technical limit C, at least from driving a regular lap - this stuff is now at a point where you need data logging, plus the data sources, plus repeated testing, to get any degree of certainty. To the extent that they can notice a difference, they are much more likely to pick up on things like dampening, return rates, response curves, etc, which are all controller settings rather than physics settings. It is very difficult to work out, from playing a game, whether the physics model does not support a phenomena or whether the controller profile is preventing you from entering it deliberately.
The PR stuff you see these days, so and so drove a lap at whatever track with a bla car, this driver swears by brand x's sim as the most realistic ever, whatever, is about as purely cynical as you can get. But for whatever reason, people demand it, and won't buy a game without it. I swear 99% of this "sim" vs "arcade" thing is simply nerds not wanting other nerds to think they are a pussy if they play a certain video game. It's total nonsense.
- 28,454
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
I always enjoy reading your posts, and it has nothing to do with me understanding exactly (or near exactly) what you're saying and why you're saying it....moreso because it just shuts everyone else the hell up.
Fantastic stuff.
Fantastic stuff.
- 2,114
- Porto-Portugal
- arvore
- FCP CAMPEÕES
You're absolutely right Terronium(may the Force-India or not - be with You man
)Boxox always rocks...
And I agree with him(although just by intuition since I don't have the technical knowledge to evaluate his arguments but I'll quote myself regarding the whole sim\arcade discussion:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=130443
- be with You man)Boxox always rocks...And I agree with him(although just by intuition since I don't have the technical knowledge to evaluate his arguments but I'll quote myself regarding the whole sim\arcade discussion:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=130443
Well, the short version of what overhaul does is:
1) grip reduction - or, more correctly, more downforce or better tyres or lower ride height need to be used to see the same grip level you see in stock Shift
2) less brake oversteer, fixing a bug where changes to brake pressure/brake power in upgrades completely overrode whatever was set as the brake bias in tuning, so trail braking was more likely than not to turn into some kind of handbrake-turn-ish thing with the more powerful rear brakes locking up first
3) better feedback on what the steering rack is actually doing, via an optional input rate accelerator and matching the car's steering lock to your wheel's rotation
4) more understeer at high speeds and lower tendency for high speed powerslides, by increasing the loss of aerodynamic grip when the splitter/diffuser/wing are at a higher angle of attack.
It's not really a 'harder' or 'easier' sort of mod, it's more like some snakes 'n' ladders thing - you have less grip overall, and more rapid loss of grip in more circumstances, but it tends to be easier to manage what grip you do have. If you have the PC version (it's like $15 from g2play, and there are a hell of a lot of new/converted cars from rFactor, Race, Forza 3, etc around these days to make it worthwhile) you should check it out
ed - oh right, link to Overhaul might help. Also here's g2play's Shift page.
1) grip reduction - or, more correctly, more downforce or better tyres or lower ride height need to be used to see the same grip level you see in stock Shift
2) less brake oversteer, fixing a bug where changes to brake pressure/brake power in upgrades completely overrode whatever was set as the brake bias in tuning, so trail braking was more likely than not to turn into some kind of handbrake-turn-ish thing with the more powerful rear brakes locking up first
3) better feedback on what the steering rack is actually doing, via an optional input rate accelerator and matching the car's steering lock to your wheel's rotation
4) more understeer at high speeds and lower tendency for high speed powerslides, by increasing the loss of aerodynamic grip when the splitter/diffuser/wing are at a higher angle of attack.
It's not really a 'harder' or 'easier' sort of mod, it's more like some snakes 'n' ladders thing - you have less grip overall, and more rapid loss of grip in more circumstances, but it tends to be easier to manage what grip you do have. If you have the PC version (it's like $15 from g2play, and there are a hell of a lot of new/converted cars from rFactor, Race, Forza 3, etc around these days to make it worthwhile) you should check it out
ed - oh right, link to Overhaul might help. Also here's g2play's Shift page.
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- 28,454
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
You're absolutely right Terronium(may the Force-India or not
And I agree with him(although just by intuition since I don't have the technical knowledge to evaluate his arguments but I'll quote myself regarding the whole sim\arcade discussion:
How many times have you changed your avatar now?
- 415
- GTP_infamousDee
- 12,514
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- The__Luke
Funny story here. We have an art project in school and I picked to do it on cars. So I'm using NFS Shift to get any picture I want. It's pretty cool. Next time I'm on the playstation I can say I'm doing my homework. Gran turismo 5 is going to have even better pictures as well. Never thought playstation would help with my schoolwork.
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- arvore
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- 5,051
- Labounti
Arcade? Have you compared the handling to Forza or Project Gotham Racing? It falls in between as My G27 play time reveals one nice set of arcade/sim physics... Shift is my Fix until GT5... And I love it.
I love that you brought up PGR and Forza. This is one of the best examples to use for what I'm talking about:
I'm pretty sure this predates a lot of what people now know about Forza's active steering assists. So you get this enormous argument in comments about which is a more realistic physics model - one where you can get into and out of oversteer situations more easily, or one where they just don't seem to happen at all
- not even something that really touches so much on physics as it touches on how the controller is allowed to move the car.
- 676
- Toronto, CAN
- Guynemer27
@InfamousD
Look at both video (the replay form prologue and the 458 promo)... the F458 used in the promo is processed on a higher computer able to show very rich details a close range, Antialias is fully used, All the cameras angles are not genuine from a replay feedback... it's GT5 but scripted and processed on a higher computer, Polyphony use this trick all the time to show off... remember the promo about GT PSP...
I love GT5 and I will be one of the first to buy it when it's out... but I'm NOT a blind integrist fanboy.
Look at both video (the replay form prologue and the 458 promo)... the F458 used in the promo is processed on a higher computer able to show very rich details a close range, Antialias is fully used, All the cameras angles are not genuine from a replay feedback... it's GT5 but scripted and processed on a higher computer, Polyphony use this trick all the time to show off... remember the promo about GT PSP...
I love GT5 and I will be one of the first to buy it when it's out... but I'm NOT a blind integrist fanboy.
Ibonibo
Premium
- 5,440
- Luxemburg
- Already paying my Isp 4 Access
I need GT5.
But i have to agree that Shift modded is so much fun.
Physics are really comparable to GTR.
I even installed a few graphics mod to eliminated the "bling bling" of the cars, all the tents are removed, the blur inside the car, more LOD than normal.
I like it very much.
But GT5 will decimate all into the ground. I don't think i will be playing Shift after GT5 hits the street.
But i get your point
But i have to agree that Shift modded is so much fun.
Physics are really comparable to GTR.
I even installed a few graphics mod to eliminated the "bling bling" of the cars, all the tents are removed, the blur inside the car, more LOD than normal.
I like it very much.
But GT5 will decimate all into the ground. I don't think i will be playing Shift after GT5 hits the street.
But i get your point
- 415
- GTP_infamousDee
@InfamousD
Look at both video (the replay form prologue and the 458 promo)... the F458 used in the promo is processed on a higher computer able to show very rich details a close range, Antialias is fully used, All the cameras angles are not genuine from a replay feedback... it's GT5 but scripted and processed on a higher computer, Polyphony use this trick all the time to show off... remember the promo about GT PSP...
I love GT5 and I will be one of the first to buy it when it's out... but I'm NOT a blind integrist fanboy.
I'd appreciate it if you explained these "rich details at a close range" you can apparently only see in the promotional video. I also love how you brought up the CGI opening sequence for GT PSP. Tell me when Polyphony ever claimed that was gameplay footage.
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I'd appreciate it if you explained these "rich details at a close range" you can apparently only see in the promotional video. I also love how you brought up the CGI opening sequence for GT PSP. Tell me when Polyphony ever claimed that was gameplay footage.
One thing I noticed were the reflections on the car. In the promotional video, the car is more glossy. This is something I always complain about GT5P. However, in the latest footages we've seen (Gamescom and TGS, except night racing), the cars look more glossy than in GT5P IMO. I believe PD is working to divide processing power among smoke, reflections, shadows and other little things.
I'd appreciate it if you explained these "rich details at a close range" you can apparently only see in the promotional video. I also love how you brought up the CGI opening sequence for GT PSP. Tell me when Polyphony ever claimed that was gameplay footage.
This one from E3 is pretty damning.
HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
Being a ps3 user I can't tell you how good is the modded shift in pc version, but this is what I would like to do in GT5: tune the exothic cars into 100% ready to race cars (with a race livrery too). This is the coolest thing about shift imho, but on ps3 we can't have any mod so this game still suffer some physics bugs. That's why we are all waiting the big one. I'm still playing prologue because of the nfs shift's problems. EA need to spend some money and TIME on shift 2 if they don't wonna completely loose the battle for ps3 sim racing games.
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