Why are more people not bothered about no rear-view mirror?

760
France
France
The lack of mirrors/visibility is one thing, but the lack of blindspot assist on cockpit view makes it almost unusable for races with other people. I mean it's possible, I've raced Gr.3 in cockpit and had no issues, but it's a risk every time. Cockpit view needs more visibility assistance than any other view, and it has the least amount. Simply egregious.

Yeah if they are really trying to “balance” views...
 

Lion-Face

Premium
1,349
New Zealand
Invercargill
Lion-Face
Dan
I can understand their stance from a balance point of view, but mine comes from a safety point of view. There are countless accidents I could have avoided if there was a way to see the car behind me. Most of the time it’s from divebombers and people who lock up their brakes at every corner. The hood/roof camera gives us zero warning of these extremely common incidents without a rear view mirror.

When I'm in bumper cam, I don't have my eyes on the mirror the whole time. It is only a quick glance or two. If I don't catch someone in those glances, then I can be taken out. Often those glances will show me the behaviour and positioning from the cars behind and from there I can predict what they are going to do. This is something that can be done by pressing rear view button and gathering the same amount of information. The disadvantage is you don't get a continuous stream of information, you have to take those snapshots and predict what the other cars are going to do based on your knowledge on the track. I just don't see how it is that much worse than having a mirror that it causes drivers to have so many incidents.

On default ABS, you cannot lock your brakes.

Dan
The game isn’t enjoyable when you’re involved in accidents because you can’t see anything behind you. At the moment, the game’s blind spot warnings aren’t good enough (I would be glad if they could directly copy Forza 7’s system) and the radar is useless when you need to see another menu option, such as fuel your fuel map.

The blind spot/radar don't help dive bombers, they are for close proximity racing and come up too late for a dive bomber.

If you want to use your radar, I don't see why you need your fuel map up. If I have a car within 1-2 seconds, I have my radar on. It is 5 clicks to the right to get to fuel map, then 5 to the left to go back to radar. Or 2 to the left, then 2 to the right. It is easy to have what you want displayed and jump between. I don't feel that is an excuse to not have your radar up as need be.
 
729
Brazil
Brazil
Meanwhile I'm sitting here...Hoping that one day the cockpit camera stops being static and moves left and right as we steer the cars, this is the only serious racing game I have played that keeps this camera static and that kills all immersion.
 
3,178
England
St helens, merseyside, England.
crazybuttocks198
Crazybuttocks19
Its not that bad an issue. Forza Horizon has no mirrors (yes different type of racing but racing nonetheless)

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760
France
France
When I'm in bumper cam, I don't have my eyes on the mirror the whole time. It is only a quick glance or two. If I don't catch someone in those glances, then I can be taken out. Often those glances will show me the behaviour and positioning from the cars behind and from there I can predict what they are going to do. This is something that can be done by pressing rear view button and gathering the same amount of information. The disadvantage is you don't get a continuous stream of information, you have to take those snapshots and predict what the other cars are going to do based on your knowledge on the track. I just don't see how it is that much worse than having a mirror that it causes drivers to have so many incidents.

On default ABS, you cannot lock your brakes.



The blind spot/radar don't help dive bombers, they are for close proximity racing and come up too late for a dive bomber.

If you want to use your radar, I don't see why you need your fuel map up. If I have a car within 1-2 seconds, I have my radar on. It is 5 clicks to the right to get to fuel map, then 5 to the left to go back to radar. Or 2 to the left, then 2 to the right. It is easy to have what you want displayed and jump between. I don't feel that is an excuse to not have your radar up as need be.

When I use bumper cam I don’t stare at the mirror, it’s there constantly in my peripheral vision, especially mid-corner. You can only use the look back button effectively until you get to the corner, and then it becomes extremely difficult to look back until you straighten out the car again. Once you’ve had an accident and a 10 second penalty, it doesn’t matter what you predicted going into the corner or expected the car to do.

Forget about 1-2 seconds.. when a car is 0.1-0.2 it becomes very challenging to use the look back button, and depending on your timing, there’s a chance you can miss an opponents move.

In the FIA races especially, fuel saving is extremely important, and it’s crucial to always have the fuel map up, changing the mixture up and down on each corner and in the slipstreams. You can’t do that and also have the radar out.

I think right now you are just picking small arguments though and are missing the bigger picture.
 

Dan

.
Premium
15,350
United States
United States
I just don't see how it is that much worse than having a mirror that it causes drivers to have so many incidents.

I’m just taking a small part of your post here because @Tou2istTrophy basically said it all for me.

Having the rear view mapped to a separate button is not good enough because it’s essential to have a constant view of your opponents. Guessing their position only leads to more accidents. Additionally, I play with a manual transmission, so when I downshift into a corner using Square, I can’t look back with the Right Stick.

There is no way to justify the absence of a rear view for all camera positions.
 
760
France
France
Does it have anything to do with frame rate ?

Don’t think so, especially when there’s really amazing rear-view screens for example in the Bugatti Veyron Gr.4 and the Chiron VGTs cockpit that work okay.

Kaz’s reasoning is that hood cam is simply too much of an advantage (false because many of the fastest time trial stars use bumper, it’s really just preference) and he doesn’t want it to become OP with everyone using it. He didn’t mention anything about the other views though (e.g. cockpit which is more difficult to use than bumper cam no question), he also didn’t mention anything about the absence of the dark proximity indicators on the other views.

In my opinion Kaz just prefers bumper cam and doesn’t like or use the others, nothing wrong with that, if he didn’t do things his way than we wouldn’t have this beautiful series. But this is just something that stands out as unacceptable right now with the FIA e-sports push and we are not asking to change his game, just believe these features are necessary and we have been given poor excuses for not having them.
 
2,497
United States
Connecticut
Ridley-X4
I have a strong feeling it's due to hardware constraints, similar to how you don't see too many functioning mirrors in other videogames. I recall that hardware limitations were also why dynamic time-of-day wasn't in GT Sport. Either way, with the massive upgrades that the PS5 could bring, I think the next GT game could have similar leaps in various fields other than graphics alone.

More powerful hardware can enable a developer to make a game that would be running more calculations at a given time than if that dev were making a game for an older system. Insofar that an older system would be unable to run this newer, more technically-advanced title - or unable to do so without downgrades in textures, models, and/or framerate.
 
729
Brazil
Brazil
The thing you folks don't understand about the bumper cam on time trials is that on time trials you dont have to worry about your surroundings, you can weave back and forth on the track and keep your line simply because there are no other competitors in the track.

Whereas in a race it's very different, you can't keep your line 100% of the time, you will eventually have to dispute it and look around for other cars and avoid collisions, and that's where the rearview mirror comes into play and why it's not available in any other camera.

I see Kaz reasoning for this deliberate design choice and I understand it, kind of makes sense to me.



Yet I'm still baffled that the cockpit camera is static, that definitely needs to change
 
760
France
France
Also you guys need to note that not all hood/roof views are the same. They very per car, and yes, some might provide a visibility advantage, but others are pretty horrible and take up the whole screen too.
 
204
United States
United States
you can't keep your line 100% of the time, you will eventually have to dispute it and look around for other cars and avoid collisions, and that's where the rearview mirror comes into play and why it's not available in any other camera.

What makes you think you see anymore of what’s going on behind you in hood cam as opposed to bumper cam???
 
729
Brazil
Brazil
What makes you think you see anymore of what’s going on behind you in hood cam as opposed to bumper cam???

Well you can see both sides of your car and a little bit more on the sides than you can on bumper cam, admitted it's not much but it's enough for me to be aware of my sides at least.

Sure I can't see behind me because of the lack of rear view mirror, but that's my entire point: Because with the rear view mirror on hood cam, you'd have all sides covered without the aid of radar.

And according to Kaz, that would be a vantage.

That's why I see his reasoning.
 
204
United States
United States
Well you can see both sides of your car and a little bit more on the sides than you can on bumper cam, admitted it's not much but it's enough for me to be aware of my sides at least.

Sure I can't see behind me because of the lack of rear view mirror, but that's my entire point: Because with the rear view mirror on hood cam, you'd have all sides covered without the aid of radar.

And according to Kaz, that would be a vantage.

That's why I see his reasoning.
The hood cam maybe gives you 20% more visibility than the bumper cam from your nose to just past your front wheel well. Other than that, I see no difference. If someone makes a late maneuver to out brake an opponent entering a corner they will have no idea until it’s too late (I speak from experience). It’s way easier to see a car jump to the inside on a rear view mirror in your peripheral than it is a little rectangle at the bottom of the screen. Not to mention if you’re looking at your fuel or lap times then your radar won’t even show up. Brilliant job there by PD to not only disable rear view mirrors but make the radar disappear whenever you want to view race info.

The whole thing is just ridiculous to me. People have been racing in bumper cam for literally decades, and now all of a sudden it’s a disadvantage? And your solution to this “problem” is to take rear view mirrors away from everybody else who doesn’t use it to “balance” it out? What?
 
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Lion-Face

Premium
1,349
New Zealand
Invercargill
Lion-Face
When I use bumper cam I don’t stare at the mirror, it’s there constantly in my peripheral vision, especially mid-corner. You can only use the look back button effectively until you get to the corner, and then it becomes extremely difficult to look back until you straighten out the car again. Once you’ve had an accident and a 10 second penalty, it doesn’t matter what you predicted going into the corner or expected the car to do.

Forget about 1-2 seconds.. when a car is 0.1-0.2 it becomes very challenging to use the look back button, and depending on your timing, there’s a chance you can miss an opponents move.

In the FIA races especially, fuel saving is extremely important, and it’s crucial to always have the fuel map up, changing the mixture up and down on each corner and in the slipstreams. You can’t do that and also have the radar out.

0.1- 0.2 seconds they aren't really dive bombing you. They are probably on the radar also.

Mid Corner I'm not looking at my mirror. That is pointing behind me, and at that stage, dive bombers are coming from the left/right.

Fuel saving is extremely important in all races, but I have never had a need to constantly have it up, and as I said, it takes less than a second to switch between fuel mix and radar, even changing mid corner if need be.

If the mirror is so important, why don't you drive bumper view?


Dan
I’m just taking a small part of your post here because @Tou2istTrophy basically said it all for me.

Having the rear view mapped to a separate button is not good enough because it’s essential to have a constant view of your opponents. Guessing their position only leads to more accidents. Additionally, I play with a manual transmission, so when I downshift into a corner using Square, I can’t look back with the Right Stick.

There is no way to justify the absence of a rear view for all camera positions.

You can't have constant view on your opponents in bumper view either. Guessing, more estimating based on the information you have at the time, is all you can do regardless of view.

Putting rear view on a button which you can't access while your pressing another button doesn't sound like the smartest of button layouts if it is so essential. My button layout allows me to access every essential button I need at any time, and less important functions are set to less used/more awkward buttons.
 

ARTAsean

(Banned)
1,307
United States
United States
If someone was going to divebomb you, there's no way you'd have the reaction time to avoid it. We are talking about milliseconds in between when you hit the brakes and they don't. and if you're driving a car near its limit, you couldn't swerve far enough away to avoid them anyway, as you'd be on the limit of grip.

I've been using hood-cam since GT5. Never felt like i needed mirrors and I still don't after reading this thread. I can't think of a single time when a mirror would have made the difference hateeen win/lose.

Just my .02
 
624
United States
United States
Sorry to jump in so late, but to address the original post...

I'm not bothered because I choose the view that's best for me. Everything in racing is a compromise, so the rear view mirror is just another thing to consider. Utimately everyone has the same options to choose from, so no one is at a disadvantage.

I've used bumper cam for a long time, but I'm testing out the hood/roof cam. For me, it's difficult to closely follow other cars in bumper view, but I'm not a fan of the instrument layout in the higher view. So I'm compromising either way.

One con to the rear view mirror is that it can be a distraction. In some situations, I just want to focus on the track ahead, but part of my attention is on the car behind me flashing their lights, taking weird lines, etc. I'm sure some people are ice cold and don't get distracted or feel the pressure of always seeing what's going on behind them, but it does affect me to some degree.

What's more important to me than the rear view mirror is the time gap to the car behind displayed in real time. I've never heard anyone complain about this artificial assist. (I'm making the assumption that real life racing doesn't have this, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If it is available, it's not in the majority of racing.)
 
1,762
United States
San Antonio, Texas
Obi-Tonobi
It’s difficult when you are racing so closely and competitively compared to having a proper mirror and the dark blind spot/proximity assists.
Thats why there's a radar and the red dots next to your guages.
 
2,253
United States
Indiana
pie4july
Some people are saying they dont always have their radar up and thus need a rearview mirror.

I always have my radar on and I still need a rearview mirror. The radar zone is so narrow that if someone dive bombs you like a bat out of hell, there is not enough time to react.

For example, I could have possibly seen this incident coming with a rearview mirror, but no such protection is given quick enough for the radar

 
3,178
England
St helens, merseyside, England.
crazybuttocks198
Crazybuttocks19
I'm shocked you didn't get a 10 second penalty for getting bumped for that, since it seems to now be going rate with penalty grievers on GTP. Thats some pretty nasty asteroid bumping there.
 

MatskiMonk

Inebriated member
Premium
13,452
United Kingdom
Not so Great Britain
I use bumper cam but I still use the look back or look around functions instead of the mirror. You only need to do it for a split second but you get far more information.
 
3,954
Philippines
Laguna
Alpha_Cipher1
I use bumper cam but I still use the look back or look around functions instead of the mirror. You only need to do it for a split second but you get far more information.
I used to do that back then in GT5 but my dad scolded me since I'm not using the mirrors correctly :lol:

You do get a bit more information by looking back full tilt, but most of that info is either redundant or unnecessary. If you want to know whether or not someone is at your three-quarters (or any blindspot) the radar is there to help you out in that aspect
 
760
France
France
Some people are saying they dont always have their radar up and thus need a rearview mirror.

I always have my radar on and I still need a rearview mirror. The radar zone is so narrow that if someone dive bombs you like a bat out of hell, there is not enough time to react.

For example, I could have possibly seen this incident coming with a rearview mirror, but no such protection is given quick enough for the radar


“You should have used the look back button to read the body language of the car behind you.”

“There was nothing stopping you from tapping the look back button when you were braking and turning in.”

“Even if you did have a rear view mirror, you can’t avoid divebombers.”


You can’t be expected to use the look back button at that point in a corner. With a rear-view mirror in your peripheral vision in a situation like that and many more like it, you most likely would have seen that car coming and pulled all 4 wheels onto the left curb to avoid being hit.

“Then why don’t you just use bumper cam?”
 
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2,253
United States
Indiana
pie4july
“You should have used the look back button to read the body language of the car behind you.”

“There was nothing stopping you from tapping the look back button when you were braking and turning in.”

“Even if you did have a rear view mirror, you can’t avoid divebombers.”


You can’t be expected to use the look back button at that point in a corner. With a rear-view mirror in your peripheral vision in a situation like that and many more like it, you most likely would have seen that car coming and pulled all 4 wheels onto the left curb to avoid being hit.

“Then why don’t you just use bumper cam?”

Because bumper cam is uncomfortable for me and I do not like it.
 
386
United States
OH
GTP_Sarkazmo
I used to drive bumper cam but now I drive roof cam because I wanted more situational awareness and to know exactly where my fenders are for those walled apexes. I don't really miss the mirror. A glance at the split times tells me most of what I need and the radar helps with when they're right on me. I don't block people so their lane swapping to intimidate or press me doesn't work. If they're close enough I'll take a defensive line before they're right on me. A mirror would be a nice option to have but I don't feel like it's holding me back not having one.

Sark
 

MikeV27

Premium
2,716
Canada
Ontario
MikeV27
If I remember correctly you can toggle the rear view mirror on or off for all views in Pcars. GTS should do the same thing imo.

I use cockpit view most of the time but sometimes the mirrors are pretty much useless. The radar is not a good enough substitute.
 
760
France
France
If I remember correctly you can toggle the rear view mirror on or off for all views in Pcars. GTS should do the same thing imo.

I use cockpit view most of the time but sometimes the mirrors are pretty much useless. The radar is not a good enough substitute.

Project CARS HUD customisation is incredible. You have all the freedom to choose what you want and where you want it.

I’m not even demanding anything close to that from PD though. I just want a bloody mirror! :lol:
 

Lion-Face

Premium
1,349
New Zealand
Invercargill
Lion-Face
Because bumper cam is uncomfortable for me and I do not like it.

Thats fine, you use the view you prefer. Your preferred view doesnt have a mirror. You are choosing to not have a mirror because you dont like the view to gain advantages elsewhere.

I also don't believe a mirror wouldn't have saved anyone in that situation. At that point in the corner the car is going too slow to have a maneuverability to get out of the way.

There was also no point in that clip where the rear view button was used. So the driver was entering turn 1 effectively blind from the cars behind having no knowledge on what was happening. Car positioning was good and had plenty of time to press rear view and see what was going on.
 
2,253
United States
Indiana
pie4july
Thats fine, you use the view you prefer. Your preferred view doesnt have a mirror. You are choosing to not have a mirror because you dont like the view to gain advantages elsewhere.

I also don't believe a mirror wouldn't have saved anyone in that situation. At that point in the corner the car is going too slow to have a maneuverability to get out of the way.

There was also no point in that clip where the rear view button was used. So the driver was entering turn 1 effectively blind from the cars behind having no knowledge on what was happening. Car positioning was good and had plenty of time to press rear view and see what was going on.

Its a lot easier to glance at a mirror, over pressing a button on my wheel, and looking in the wrong direction while truing the wheel in a technical corner with traffic all around me...

With a mirror, I can still use my peripheral vision to see what is happening in front of me.